Vintage Tickets - 1895 Omahogs Baseball - Value & Grading Advice Requested...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

I agree with that Richard.
As for the tickets to me at least Alex (and I dont know him at all) in my opinion will end up making at least 22 possible people happy instead of one if he left the book intact. Remember there is still one complete book intact that we know of. And who is to say that if he did sell the book intact that the person who bought it wouldnt do the exact same thing that he is doing! In my opinion I dont think having them graded will make any difference in price being a 6 or an 8 or a 10. The tickets are what they are,and I really have no problem in what he did. Others may disagree but how mant times have we all seen great collections broken up! Leon as a type collector wouldnt you agree I would rather have one of the tickets than have to try and buy the whole book and maybe not get it at all. Just my thoughts.

Yes and no, Al. I guess since he has another whole book it's not so bad. However, that being said, I have had a lot of uncut pre-war strips, of which there are plenty more of,......and I know cutting them up and grading them I could have got more money for them, but I could just never do it. I don't know what it is but I just can't cut up these 50-125 yrs old pieces of history. Now, I have had a few really crappy looking scrapbooks with fairly valuable cards or stamps in them and those I have cut up. But the scrapbooks were really bad looking and rotting. They had no aesthetic or historical value. For those kinds of things I have no issue cutting them up, but for these whole, nice looking treasures, I just can't bring myself to do it.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes and no, Al. I guess since he has another whole book it's not so bad. However, that being said, I have had a lot of uncut pre-war strips, of which there are plenty more of,......and I know cutting them up and grading them I could have got more money for them, but I could just never do it. I don't know what it is but I just can't cut up these 50-125 yrs old pieces of history. Now, I have had a few really crappy looking scrapbooks with fairly valuable cards or stamps in them and those I have cut up. But the scrapbooks were really bad looking and rotting. They had no aesthetic or historical value. For those kinds of things I have no issue cutting them up, but for these whole, nice looking treasures, I just can't bring myself to do it.

Leon,
I would agree with you on the strip cards. Cards in general on sheets I myself wouldnt cut up. Funny there is another post about to cut up or not cut up that Bowman card sheets. (See I wouldnt either) but as for these tickets they were meant to be sold out of the book. Arguement is Alex didnt have to tell us that they were in a booklet. Like i said up one of my upper posts they could have been loose, and what if he had said I have all of the tickets from a booklet (loose) and I still have the booklet also that they came in. Would have been a different story. To me I would rather own one than none in this case. Like I said just my feelings!

[cubsguy1969]

Not to hijack the thread (I can start a new one, if that's better), but what about old autograph books? Someone mentioned it earlier, I think. But what's the general opinion on cutting those up?

I found a really neat autograph book at an estate sale that contains mostly boxers. It dates to the 1940s and 1950s and has 70 to 80 signatures in it, including Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, along with Marcel Cerdan, the boxer killed in the plane crash who was Edith Piaf's lover. (Apparently, a fairly rare signature.) Trouble is, it also has some basketball signatures, and even an old Bob Feller. So different collectors would be interested in different signatures.

Would people go nuts if I cut it up and sold the signatures individually? Each signature is on a separate page and the owner -- who I"m guessing stood outside Madison Square Garden over and over through the years -- wrote a little commentary about each boxer/player on the back of the page. It's neat to read his opinions on the guys. The book does have some historical value/charm as a piece, but in the end, I'd like to maximize my money. I'm torn (so to speak) about tearing it up. What are the various opinions on this practice? I know it's done all the time.
Thanks.
Rob

[barrysloate]

With regard to Alex's question about which major auction house to consign these tickets, I have to say I don't think the individual ones are valuable enough to qualify, unless you consign them all as a group...in which case you could have left the book intact.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With regard to Alex's question about which major auction house to consign these tickets, I have to say I don't think the individual ones are valuable enough to qualify, unless you consign them all as a group...in which case you could have left the book intact.

Barry,
I agree some of the auction houses wouldnt want this item I.E. Rea I would believe Rob would deem it to small. But remember he still has a book intact and could try it complete in a major auction house if he wanted to.

[barrysloate]

I think REA's deadline has already passed, at least for the printed catalog. He usually has an added internet section however.

[batsballsbases]

I believe your right!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes and no, Al. I guess since he has another whole book it's not so bad. However, that being said, I have had a lot of uncut pre-war strips, of which there are plenty more of,......and I know cutting them up and grading them I could have got more money for them, but I could just never do it. I don't know what it is but I just can't cut up these 50-125 yrs old pieces of history. Now, I have had a few really crappy looking scrapbooks with fairly valuable cards or stamps in them and those I have cut up. But the scrapbooks were really bad looking and rotting. They had no aesthetic or historical value. For those kinds of things I have no issue cutting them up, but for these whole, nice looking treasures, I just can't bring myself to do it.

+1 Leon

[mjkm90]

As a collector, I can appreciate having a book intact. But from a business and benefit to the hobby perspective I would have sold one book in a major auction, then broke the other up and sold them as singles. This would accomplish two things:

1st It would maximize generation of cash. There is no way these would fail to bring $200-$500 each (more than 40 collectors would want these) and who knows what the book would bring.

2nd This way you would be putting really really rare and nice pieces in the hands of far more collectors.

Why should the one big spender get all the goods? It's like when you see all five spalding trophies sell in a lot. They NEVER bring close to what they would have sold for as singles, and now the collector who just wants to own one (and only has the resources to buy one) is left out. I love knowing that someone who really appreciates a piece has an opportunity to acquire it without breaking the bank.

One thing he should have done was leave ONE ticket in the book he broke up. That piece alone would go for significantly more than any single out of the book.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by mjkm90

As a collector, I can appreciate having a book intact. But from a business and benefit to the hobby perspective I would have sold one book in a major auction, then broke the other up and sold them as singles. This would accomplish two things:

1st It would maximize generation of cash. There is no way these would fail to bring $200-$500 each (more than 40 collectors would want these) and who knows what the book would bring.

2nd This way you would be putting really really rare and nice pieces in the hands of far more collectors.

Why should the one big spender get all the goods? It's like when you see all five spalding trophies sell in a lot. They NEVER bring close to what they would have sold for as singles, and now the collector who just wants to own one (and only has the resources to buy one) is left out. I love knowing that someone who really appreciates a piece has an opportunity to acquire it without breaking the bank.

One thing he should have done was leave ONE ticket in the book he broke up. That piece alone would go for significantly more than any single out of the book.

One big difference between the trophy lot scenario you're presenting and these ticket books is that you wouldn't have to break the trophies into pieces to sell them separately. The idea that breaking something up so that more collectors can get a piece of the action may make sense monetarily, but I think it's rarely "good for the hobby." I'm not talking about breaking up a card set or piecing out a trophy or pin or whatever else collection of individual items. I'm referring more to the cutting up an uncut card sheet, opening an old pack of cards, removing something from a blister pack, chopping up a jersey/bat/ball, etc. Actions that cannot be undone.

With the case of this ticket book, you can argue whether it makes sense monetarily, or whether it really matters because the tickets were intended to be removed anyway, or how many more people get to enjoy the tickets now that they are not bound in their original booklet. What you cannot do, however, is return them to their original state. You can reassemble a collection of anything, but this is one collectible that cannot be put back together.

Would I have done the same thing if I were in the owner's shoes? I honestly can't say for sure one way or the other, and I'm sure personal finances would weigh heavily on that decision. Being a collector at heart though, making that decision to break up the book would sadden me, even if it did make the most monetary sense.

[mjkm90]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

One big difference between the trophy lot scenario you're presenting and these ticket books is that you wouldn't have to break the trophies into pieces to sell them separately. The idea that breaking something up so that more collectors can get a piece of the action may make sense monetarily, but I think it's rarely "good for the hobby." I'm not talking about breaking up a card set or piecing out a trophy or pin or whatever else collection of individual items. I'm referring more to the cutting up an uncut card sheet, opening an old pack of cards, removing something from a blister pack, chopping up a jersey/bat/ball, etc. Actions that cannot be undone.

With the case of this ticket book, you can argue whether it makes sense monetarily, or whether it really matters because the tickets were intended to be removed anyway, or how many more people get to enjoy the tickets now that they are not bound in their original booklet. What you cannot do, however, is return them to their original state. You can reassemble a collection of anything, but this is one collectible that cannot be put back together.

Would I have done the same thing if I were in the owner's shoes? I honestly can't say for sure one way or the other, and I'm sure personal finances would weigh heavily on that decision. Being a collector at heart though, making that decision to break up the book would sadden me, even if it did make the most monetary sense.

Think of it this way. If he didn't break up the book, only two people on the planet could have an example of this piece and they would likely only look at one ticket, the front one when they display it. The other 39 would probably never be seen again. This way 41 people can enjoy the tickets.

Lance perhaps I didn't make my point clearly with my initial post. Your comparison with smashing trophies and cutting up jerseys is an entirely different kettle of fish and not at all what I trying to communicate. The practice of destroying something and selling off bits that look NOTHING like the original is horrible. My analogy was all about collectors having an opportunity to enjoy a rare piece of memorabilia. If he found a box of tickets already detached we wouldn't be lamenting the fact that they weren't in the original book. We would all be celbrating the "find" and lining up to buy them (if the asking price wasn't completely INSANE like what he is asking). If he found a box of cut up jersey bits or smashed trophies we would be sad. See the difference Lance?

I completely see the point regarding keeping it original, I'm just offering a potential upside to the collecting community as a whole.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by mjkm90

Lance perhaps I didn't make my point clearly with my initial post. Your comparison with smashing trophies and cutting up jerseys is an entirely different kettle of fish and not at all what I trying to communicate. The practice of destroying something and selling off bits that look NOTHING like the original is horrible. My analogy was all about collectors having an opportunity to enjoy a rare piece of memorabilia. If he found a box of tickets already detached we wouldn't be lamenting the fact that they weren't in the original book. We would all be celbrating the "find" and lining up to buy them (if the asking price wasn't completely INSANE like what he is asking). If he found a box of cut up jersey bits or smashed trophies we would be sad. See the difference Lance?

Yes, I do see a difference between cutting up a jersey and parting out the ticket book. I also see a difference between the ticket book and splitting up a trophy collection. To me, the ticket book is somewhere in the middle.

Part of the attraction to me of items like this is the wonder I feel that the tickets were not torn out of the books back in the day, and have survived intact to the present day despite the original intent of their manufacture being to have been torn out of the book and used by attendees of the games. It's the same feeling I would have about an unopened pack of 1952 Topps cards, action figures still in their original package, a case of vintage baseballs sealed in their original boxes, etc etc etc. Would any of those things be enjoyable out of their original packaging or if they had been used as intended by their respective manufacturers? Sure. But to me, there is a certain mystique that comes with something that was once meant to be used and thrown away surviving for over 100 years completely intact and unaltered from its original state.

You are clearly taking the stance that the more people that can enjoy something the better, which is a valid viewpoint, but doesn't diminish the sadness that those who would prefer to see the item intact feel when they hear of it being broken up like this. To some, knowing that a bit of history exists wholly intact, whether it's in our own collection or not, is more satisfying than owning a piece of it.

[mjkm90]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Yes, I do see a difference between cutting up a jersey and parting out the ticket book. I also see a difference between the ticket book and splitting up a trophy collection. To me, the ticket book is somewhere in the middle.

Part of the attraction to me of items like this is the wonder I feel that the tickets were not torn out of the books back in the day, and have survived intact to the present day despite the original intent of their manufacture being to have been torn out of the book and used by attendees of the games. It's the same feeling I would have about an unopened pack of 1952 Topps cards, action figures still in their original package, a case of vintage baseballs sealed in their original boxes, etc etc etc. Would any of those things be enjoyable out of their original packaging or if they had been used as intended by their respective manufacturers? Sure. But to me, there is a certain mystique that comes with something that was once meant to be used and thrown away surviving for over 100 years completely intact and unaltered from its original state.

You are clearly taking the stance that the more people that can enjoy something the better, which is a valid viewpoint, but doesn't diminish the sadness that those who would prefer to see the item intact feel when they hear of it being broken up like this. To some, knowing that a bit of history exists wholly intact, whether it's in our own collection or not, is more satisfying than owning a piece of it.

Good points Lance. Wow...we got a lot of mileage out of this post didn't we

[bigfanNY]

Well I just read this thread and went to the bay to look at the competition and tickets are now listed at $25 each which I think is more than fair. I purchased one and will update you when it arrives. I do not think I will have it graded it looks just fine the at it is.
Regards
Jonathan

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

One big difference between the trophy lot scenario you're presenting and these ticket books is that you wouldn't have to break the trophies into pieces to sell them separately. The idea that breaking something up so that more collectors can get a piece of the action may make sense monetarily, but I think it's rarely "good for the hobby." I'm not talking about breaking up a card set or piecing out a trophy or pin or whatever else collection of individual items. I'm referring more to the cutting up an uncut card sheet, opening an old pack of cards, removing something from a blister pack, chopping up a jersey/bat/ball, etc. Actions that cannot be undone.

With the case of this ticket book, you can argue whether it makes sense monetarily, or whether it really matters because the tickets were intended to be removed anyway, or how many more people get to enjoy the tickets now that they are not bound in their original booklet. What you cannot do, however, is return them to their original state. You can reassemble a collection of anything, but this is one collectible that cannot be put back together.

Would I have done the same thing if I were in the owner's shoes? I honestly can't say for sure one way or the other, and I'm sure personal finances would weigh heavily on that decision. Being a collector at heart though, making that decision to break up the book would sadden me, even if it did make the most monetary sense.

Lance,
Sorry but this hasnt been a hobby now for over 20 years. If there is money to be made somewhere somehow it will be done. Fake cards,autographs,jerseys,you name it. At least this isnt an attempt at that. It from my stand point yes a way to make money. (still yet to be proven) Have to sell them first. But an honest attempt. Still has one full book that Alex says isnt going to be broken up,so it still can be seen if an intact booklet is more valuabe than the broken up booklet. Either way good for collectors and good for them being found and put back in circulation.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Lance,
Sorry but this hasnt been a hobby now for over 20 years. If there is money to be made somewhere somehow it will be done. Fake cards,autographs,jerseys,you name it. At least this isnt an attempt at that. It from my stand point yes a way to make money. (still yet to be proven) Have to sell them first. But an honest attempt. Still has one full book that Alex says isnt going to be broken up,so it still can be seen if an intact booklet is more valuabe than the broken up booklet. Either way good for collectors and good for them being found and put back in circulation.

If it's not a hobby any more (and there are many, many collectors who would dispute that), I think you've pretty much summarized why.

I've said my piece. No more opining, gotta get back to WORK

[bijoem]

just reading through this thread for the first time.

scratching my head.


why would anyone rip out tickets from a beautiful clean book?
wow!