Set Registry

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I hope I get a response from someone that falls into this category that I ask the question about.

For those of you that compete for the higher spots on a registry, why do you do it and why do you spend so much money in doing it (overpaying in my mind outrageously, but that up to you if have the means)?

I don't know that there are a enough people if any other than the other bidders that accuatly care or really know that it is an achievement of any kind. Heck I would be surprised if any in competion even know each other, other than by name.

Just curious, everyone has the right to spend their money how ever they feel.

Lee

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Posted By: cmoking

you might as well ask the question in this form:

"doing so-and-so is the dumbest stupidest thing in the world and is a waste of money. you'll never recoup your money by doing that. so tell me, why do you do it?"

I don't think you'll get a quality response phrasing the question as you did.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I like the idea of set registries a lot. I also like the idea of being as high on a set registry as possible. It is a way of being competitive with your collection. If you are not into that, you certainly do not have to participate in it. But for those of us who are competitive by nature, it gives us a little something extra when we are purchasing a card for the registry. And, actually, it provides non-collectors with whom we share our collections a way of saying, "look, I have the Nth most complete set of X cards graded by [SGC/PSA/GAI], according to this registry."

Wholly apart from the competitive aspects, I also like the registry as a way to organize, view and share my collection on-line.

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Posted By: joe brennan

I wanted to put together a graded set before I had even heard of the registry. I picked a small set (89 cards). I wanted the set to be at least NM (7). I dont get caught up in the bidding for low pops and I'm surely never going to own the finest set of all time. But I do own a very nice graded set and that was and still is my goal.

A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: HandsAtNeck

If you collect cards for their artistic merit, why settle for a damaged example? If you want the cards because of their history, why buy one which did not circulate at its time of its issuance? If you simply want your cards to commemorate an event, why purchase one in high grade? If your preference is the assembly of type examples - why obtain star players? Etc.

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Posted By: Brad

Why asks why? Red neck you make no sense!

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Posted By: Chad

It's a nice way of showing cards and seeing other people's sets. When I finish my Aguilitas set, I'll get it graded and registered and pester everyone I know to go and admire it.

--Chad

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Posted By: HandsAtNeck

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Why do I do it and why do I spend so much money doing it?

Two different questions.

1)I like to collect complete sets
2)I like sets that are in nrmt-mt or better condition
3)I want to make odds as high as possible I am getting unaltered cards.
4)I like the competition.
5)I believe that high grade, low population vintage cards are a good investment. Certainly in recent years they have been.
6)I would never buy an ungraded card.
7)I personally have met at least 50 people on the PSA Set Registry--some I compete with--some not.
8)I get a lot of e-mails from dealers and fellow collectors offering me cards and wanting to buy certain of my cards. There is no way I would have finished so many sets in psa 8 and better if not for this.
9)Its fun.

Jim(Davalillo)

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Posted By: T206Collector

If you "like sets that are in nrmt-mt or better condition" you are most certainly not "making the odds as high as possible that you are getting unaltered cards."

Indeed, one of the reasons (other than cost) that I do not have much interest in collecting T206 cards graded higher than a 6 is that relatively high probability that such cards have been altered -- and, in my opinion, those odds go up even higher if you're using PSA (as opposed to SGC).

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

I have a small number of sets on both the PSA and SGC registries.

I put them there for a number of reasons:

1) I've met several other collectors of those sets through the registry, and have been able to obtain cards I needed and sell cards I didn't need as a result. I've also done trades with people as a result of the registry.
2) It enables me to publicize my want list for particular sets with pretty wide exposure.
3) For sets I collect where I've made condition a priority, it helps me watch my progress as I upgrade.
4) When I get around to it, it's a nice place to display my collection via scans.
5) I like to see how my set compares with other people's sets. I'm not particularly competitive about it, but I find it interesting to me.

I should note, though, that I have a lot of cards that are not on registries, either, and I have a lot of raw sets I'll never get graded.

-Al

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Posted By: cmoking

If you had Jim's money, would you go after a SGC 80 or higher set? Methinks the answer would be yes.

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Posted By: dd

It's naive to believe that a significant percentage of sets or near sets are registered. Owning the #1 PSA graded set is like saying your the best chess player on your block.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

T206 Collector,

We differ on this. I do not believe there is a probability that the cards have been altered. Possibility yes, probability no. Buying nrmt-mt cards ungraded the odds of alteration go up significantly.

Regardless, doesn't seem to matter on resale. Even higher pop psa 8 T206 commons seem to be getting $2,000 and up--lower pops 2-3X this.

Jim

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I will assume that your question was whether I would purchase cards graded higher than SGC 80 if I had a larger amount of disposable income than I currenty have. That is a hypothetical question that is hard to imagine answering. Last week I purchased an M116 Walter Johnson SGC 70, which is about as nice a condition card that I could ever imagine owning. I am not sure it would ever be worth it to me to pay thousands of dollars more to upgrade that card to an 80 or higher. For one thing -- and directed more to the point of my initial post -- cards graded higher than 70 or 80 are, in my opinion, more likely to have been altered than cards graded much lower.

If you are principally concerned with unaltered cards, then high grade cards should not by your focus. I recommend that anyone with a large stash of vintage cards graded 6 and higher by PSA to have them looked at by your friendly neighborhood SGC grader at the next big show. They'll take a look at them, for free, and let you know what they think of those cards.

I brought 40-50 PSA graded cards to a show to have SGC take just such a look, and the results were very educational. They pointed out wrinkles in a 6 or two that I had owned for years and never saw. They demonstrated how a 5 I had owned had been trimmed on two sides. In all, about 25% of the cards I showed to SGC, they could not crossover to the same or higher grade.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I have begun to grade many of my vintage sets. I am doing it to have peace of mind when it comes to having unaltered cards, to better document and organize the collection and besides,I am finding that all the cards I buy to "fill" are graded anyway.

If you have the set, and it's all graded, why not register?

Would I ever pay 10x value for a pop 1? Highly unlikely. In fact I go the other way. When some of my cards come back high grade and low pop, I trade or sell them to the aggressive registry guys for a slightly lower grade and some compensation. Good for me, good for them. I love my PSA 5s and SGC 60s.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Without a doubt, the best sets in existence for the most popular pre-war vintage sets are graded.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that it would be "naive to believe that a significant percentage of sets or near sets are registered" and also that "owning the #1 PSA graded set is like saying your the best chess player on your block."

But competitiveness is all about being the best "on your block." Of those that choose to compete, you are the best. It's like the Olympics or any other sport -- you are only judged the best relative to those that try to compete with you.

And being on the SGC Set Registry, I do not consider myself in competition with the PSA boys who, if my experiences are equally applicable to theirs, would have a success rate of only about 75%-85% in having their cards crossed over to SGC.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

T206,

Again I disagree.

I don't believe that there are sets out there prewar that consistently grade out between nrmt-mt and mint like there are on the psa set registry or possibly the sgc registry.

Its not the best on the block. For all the major pre-war and certainly 40s, 50s and 60s sets the best collections in the world are on the registry.

Jim

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Posted By: Steve M.

I have the only SGC registered set in two (2) categories so I don't have to compete with anyone. That's not to say that I won't "overpay" for an item that fills a hole in my sets but then that's a story thats been hashed and re-hashed before.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...we'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.

But I challenge you to bring your high grade T206 collection to the next Hofstra Show and meet with the good folks at SGC. You can ask them about the funny bat ears that you've wondered about on some of your PSA cards -- I am assuming that you have been wondering about them, because I used to wonder about them on my PSA cards. It won't cost you anything, unless you decide to register your set with a better grading company than PSA.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"Without a doubt, the best sets in existence for the most popular pre-war vintage sets are graded."

I see statements like this a lot, and I can't help but disagree.

There are maybe 10-20 names that appear at the top of various registries with some degree of regularity. Those people have astounding collections, no doubt, and those collectors are well known. One of them - Marshall Fogel - has been sharing his cards with this board for a few months now, and they're a pleasure to see.

But I can't be so bold as to make the assumption that because I can view an online registry, I have a window into an entire hobby that, for many people, is a solitary one. There are more than two hundred million people in this country, there are billions of baseball cards, and I can't imagine that the grading companies share this belief. If the market is so small that all the best cards are already graded after only 10-15 years of grading companies having a presence in the hobby, then the concept of starting a grading company and entering the market was a poor, poor business decision.

-Al

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Posted By: HandsAtNeck

Jim: What evidence did you use to draw the conclusion: "For all the major pre-war and certainly 40s, 50s and 60s sets the best collections in the world are on the registry".?

I was thinking that the best condition sets were taken out of the hobby long ago, and most are still out of the hobby.

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Posted By: T206Collector

[Out of date]

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

T206 Collector,

Dave Forman and his graders have been to my house and looked at my T206 cards.

I like SGC and think they are a well-run company.

You are welcome to examine my cards as well if you like.

On the best collections being ungraded and socked away, I don't believe it. Every old time collection I have ever seen that comes up for grading is filled with off center cards and cards that have at the least touches on the corners.

Jim

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Posted By: T206Collector

...yes, you've told me that before. But for some reason you continue to keep your cards holdered by PSA. Hmmmmm....

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Posted By: JimB

I know of some graded sets that would be #1 but are not on the registry because their owners appreciate their privacy. But I have to agree with Jim that in the vast majority of cases, at least for relatively mainstream pre-war sets, the best are graded.
JimB

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Posted By: Brian

Plenty of regulars on this chat board overpay (your word not mine) for cards but for reasons other than the registry (rookies, types, spite, etc). I don't understand the trend of judging how/why another person collects.

I have seen many instances on this board when someone posts "Look at this auction, I put a bid at 300% of what it should go for. These three guys bid above me and my snipe didn't register. Aren't they stupid? Must be the registry's fault..." See the irony?

My point of view? I applaud anyone that supports the hobby -- either buying or selling cards. I don't care why they do it or how they show it. Someone else's motivation (to be the best, to brag, to horde, etc.) to buy or sell doesn't impact my enjoying this great hobby.

If someone can drop (what I consider) an unreasonable amount of cash on a card, I applaud their ability to do so. I am sure I have dropped (what others consider) an unreasonable amount of cash on a card, and I am glad I can do so.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

JimB,

You can use any name you want on the registry and you do not have to provide an e-mail. I would have to see it to believe it.

Take 1952 Topps--probably the best known and widely collected vintage set. Does anybody really believe there is one that could rival Merkel's? or Fogel's or Louchios? or Spence?
How about 1933 Goudey Sport Kings--I am 6th and aside from the 5 above me I think I have the 6th best collection in the world.

T206,

I think PSA, SGC and GAI are all good. I have a long historical relationship with PSA and have long had the goal of 100 vintage or semi-vintage sets PSA 8 or better--really no need to switch.

Jim

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they're not there.

Again, if all the best sets were already graded, then there's virtually nothing left to grade. Who would get into that business? And yet there are two - some would say three - grading companies that are thriving and growing and consistently bringing in new material.

I think there is a long, long way to go - like, GENERATIONS - before ALL the best cards make their way out of the woodwork and back into the hobby. High-grade prewar cards have only been a serious, big-money endeavor for 20-30 years (with some notable exceptions). The incentive to sell has simply not been there long enough to have shaken out ALL the best collections.

I think it's a strange element to this hobby, to look at a few dozen high-grade sets that happen to be on registries, and draw the conclusion that since those are the only sets that are registered, that those are the only sets that exist. It's one of those strange occurrences where concepts like "probability" and "math" get thrown right out the window.

It's like saying that "All the best doctors in the country go to the AMA convention," or "All the best songwriters in the country get nominated for Grammies." The logic is flawed, because it's simply impossible to know all the best doctors or all the best songwriters - so nobody would make either of those statements.

To me, it is simple math. If one out of 50 MILLION people in this country has a high-grade, raw T206 set, then there are more high-grade raw sets than registered ones. I think that probability is higher than other people think it is, I guess.

-Al

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Posted By: HandsAtNeck

Say it isn't so ... "spite" as a reason for anything, and particularly overbidding! I guess I just don't get this hobby yet. But keep on overbidding for spite. It makes all of our cards more valuable. That will show us.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Al,

Collectors who are atop the registry in vintage sets didn't just submit there set and leave it. In most cases they have built or improved their sets card by card and have acquired them from a multitude of sources.

There are undoubtedly individual mint cards out there which would improve top sets--however there are no sets out there which would rival the top graded ones--be they psa or sgc.

Jim

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Jim:

I understand what you're saying, I just disagree with it.

The highest-graded CJ set was a raw set in someone's house just a few years ago. I say there are plenty more raw prewar sets out there. You say there aren't. I'd say that based on probability, the odds are with me. Perhaps I'm wrong - I'm wrong about something at least once a day.

That's okay, though; they're all gorgeous cards. Regardless of which one of us is right, it still doesn't change either of our collecting choices.

-Al

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Posted By: Jay

Jim--I can say with some degree of certainty that the best Old Judge sets, the best Kalamazoo Bats sets, the best E107 sets, the best N173 sets, etc are not slabbed. Many great sets are, but similarily many great sets aren't.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...who Kankakee Club is, but he just showed up with 99% of the T206 set on the Set Registry within the past few months.

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/index.asp?action=3&setcategory=1&setid=243&usetid=1230

Who knows who else is out there. Why you think you know better than anybody else is beyond me and frankly smacks of hubris.

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Posted By: Brian

HandsAtNeck,

I was being glib.

Brian

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

This is my first post here (A long time lurker). I collect Gum Inc. WW2 War Cards. I'm a participant in the PSA Set Registry. Why?
1. It's an excellent way to meet other collectors with similar interests.
2. Great way to ensure that cards are unaltered.
3. Helps keep the condition of the cards uncompromised.
4. On online line record of my collection that I can reference in case of loss.
5. It's just a lot of fun.
My goal is to build complete sets in PSA3 or better. It has been my experience that the quality of purchased Graded cards is better than the quoted grade of raw cards. Resale of Duplicates/Upgraded cards fetch better prices when graded.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Al,

We'll see--just let me know when someone submits a raw vintage set that grades over 8.00.

T206,

I am all knowing(ha). I've been accused with a lot worse. We can disagree.

Jay,

I'm sure you are right--I am talking about sets I am familiar with where there have been the most graded

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

you sound like a real horse trader........
so to speak......

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Posted By: cmoking

JimC - Al did give you one example, that CJ set. I don't think there are many examples, but I'm sure every few years, there will be some like that set surface. The question really isn't if any exists...the question is how many. That we'll never know.

Al - A raw 1933 Goudey surfaced last year. The set wasn't hidden, some collectors knew about it...but it just wasn't graded. The owner of that set decided to sell, and it was graded by PSA. I think the average grade was roughly PSA 7.0 ... which would rank that set about 10th if PSA and SGC registries are combined. It was a great set of cards, but still fell way short of the 'absolute best'. So although I do think these great raw sets do exist (CJ is a great example), there aren't many.

So I guess I am somewhere between Jim and Al.

Lee - I was wrong...you got many quality responses in this thread.

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Posted By: Zach Rice

Without a doubt, the best sets in existence for the most popular pre-war vintage sets are graded.

Without a doubt that is a very false statement. I know of a T3 set that would all be likely 7s and higher that is ungraded. I also know of many many more that are in private collections and the owner decides to keep them under wraps. If you don't consider the N172 or T3 set a popular pre-war set than I don't know what you would.

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Posted By: Joe Jones

I know of a caramel set that would top the registry that is currently ungraded.

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Posted By: Nick D.

"I think I have the 6th best collection in the world."...obviously. The best collectors always come onto messageboards and rank themseleves amongst others. Keith Olberman was on here last week claiming he was number 1 but idk...

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

As someone who has 2 highest graded sets (T204 & E103)that were for the most part purchased raw, I do think there are still some high grade raw cards out there, but I don't think many sets. I bought about 800 T204's to put my set together and at one time had 4 complete sets and 2 sets of the square borders. I have sold about 600 of the T204's after grading. In my set there are about 10 cards that I purchased graded, mostly 8's including the Johnson. The raw Johnsons graded 7, 6, 5 and 1, all gone now. I did get a very high grade raw group of 20 cards from Dave Forman in 1995 - those cards graded 1 - 9, 9 - 8's and 10 - 7's. Dave remembers the sale to me at $200 per card, but not where he obtained the cards. Scott Brockelman knows of another nice group of raw T204's, but has lost track of them. I saw a group of 40 raw T204's including a Johnson and a TTT here in Florida two years ago, allthough they are in the 2 - 4 grade range with one possible 7. Will a haul like the CJ's turn up in T204's ? - allmost no chance. My E103's were all purchased raw, most from David Bryant about 10 years ago. I have been able to up grade a few (4 or 5)in graded cards over the last few years. The T204 set has no cards graded less than 5 and the E103 set has no cards graded better than 5. I think that there is zero chance that set or even a group of 7 or 8ish E103's will turn up. Also have sets of E93's, Delong's and 49 Leaf's and am messing with the 4 flavors of E92's and T205's. Why do I do this? hard to say.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Zach,

Those are not popular sets among graded card collectors.

I love it when people say I saw a set that is all nrmt-mt. Comes back with an avg. grade of 6.

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Posted By: JimB

Jim,
There are people with great graded sets who simply do not participate in the Registry. Is there a better 52 Topps set than Merkle's or Fogel's? I doubt it. But I know that the best E95 set (all PSA graded), for example, is not on the Registry. And I know of some very high-grade raw caramel sets out there. The 1914 CJ set mentioned above was another example up until a couple of years ago. While most mainstream highgrade sets are on the Registry, I think it would be a mistake to assume that ALL are.
JimB

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Posted By: T206Collector

Jim,

How many more T206 sets of 95-98% completion on the SGC or PSA set registry with an average grade of 7 or higher would it take for you to admit that you were wrong?

Once you supply a number, we can all keep monitoring the registries over the next few years and then come back to this post and see whether we can prove Jim wrong yet. It is only a matter of time.

Paul

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"How many more T206 sets of 95-98% completion on the SGC or PSA set registry with an average grade of 7 or higher would it take for you to admit that you were wrong?"

Let's see, Paul. Right now, tallying up the number of sets on either registry at 95-98% with an average grade of 7 or higher, there are a grand total of, umm, one.

So I guess the number would be one, then.

OR - novel concept - perhaps we can change our way of thinking a bit, and finally admit that the concept of "high grade" when it comes to most prewar sets does NOT mean PSA/SGC 8 or better. More like 6 or better, perhaps even lower on some sets.

If we lower our definition of "high grade" to EX-MT for T206, then the number changes DRAMATICALLY. Using the lower standards, the total number of "high grade" registered T206 sets above 95% complete in EX-MT or better is...

Oh. It's still just the one.

Huh.

I seriously doubt that there enough raw, high-grade T206 sets out there to make a measurable impact on that number over the next, say, 100 years.

(sorry about the sarcasm, I just think it all comes down to simple math once again, and the issue is obvious to me).

-Al

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Posted By: Mark

It was sad when Hal, no matter how much money he spent, could not vault his collection above #7 on PSA's HOF player set. "Your PSA 7 M101-5 Ruth is no match for my PSA 9 1970 Rold Gold Pretzels Ruth, Mr. Lewis...bwahahaha!"

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Posted By: Wesley

That guy with America's Toughest Wantlist must have some incredibly high grade sets. He's been advertising his want ad for NM-MT or better prewar card for years.