David or Richard. Who do you side with?

[thekingofclout]

This will be a private vote for obvious reasons.

[Ladder7]

It's no wonder the dog is man's best friend

[ss]

But Richard is the autograph collector's best friend.

[Vintagedegu]

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[RichardSimon]

If I told Willie Mays I had been a Giants fan and have great memories of him, do you think he would vote for me ??

[Vintagedegu]

-

[timzcardz]

I had to vote neither, but not because I wish it would go away.


Actually, it has made for a good chuckle when the day seemed rather down.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Vintagedegu

He'd vote, and maybe even give you a nice frown.

I grew up worshiping the man, the greatest to ever put on a uniform that I saw play. and maybe the greatest ever.
When I found out what his personality was really like I was so upset that I could not believe how strong my reaction was.

[Leon]

I didn't take sides either. It's sort of a shame when 2 folks that want the same things in the hobby go at each other. I vote for Peace on Earth (and this board). And I guess I take a little bit of blame for accidentally deleting a seemingly innocuous thread. Boy was I wrong!! best regards

[mr2686]

I grew up worshiping the man, the greatest to ever put on a uniform that I saw play. and maybe the greatest ever.
When I found out what his personality was really like I was so upset that I could not believe how strong my reaction was.

Richard, I had the same reaction about Mays. When you have autograph tickets for 20 hall of famers, and Mays is the 10th one you get on that day, and after meeting him you want to just go home and forget about collecting, that's saying something. Thank goodness that Brooks Robinson was number 11 on that day. He saved baseball in my world.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Leon

I didn't take sides either. It's sort of a shame when 2 folks that want the same things in the hobby go at each other. I vote for Peace on Earth (and this board). And I guess I take a little bit of blame for accidentally deleting a seemingly innocuous thread. Boy was I wrong!! best regards

Leon, you do a wonderful job here, no need to accept any "blame" for anything.

Secondly, sometimes a little in-fighting is good. Like two brothers squaring off...

[barrysloate]

I voted that I wished the thread went away. I'm not discounting the importance of the discussion, as forgeries take a huge toll on this hobby. But the thread degenerated too much into personal attack mode, and I find that unacceptable.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I grew up worshiping the man, the greatest to ever put on a uniform that I saw play. and maybe the greatest ever.
When I found out what his personality was really like I was so upset that I could not believe how strong my reaction was.

I was a big Mays fan as well. I recall seeing him play at the first game I ever attended in person [1973 Mets]. I collected all of his cards. When I met him at a show it kinda broke my heart and I sold all of his cards. My other big idol of the era, Hank Aaron, turned out to be every bit the grand gentleman I'd hoped he'd be.

[Forever Young]

Jimmy,

By siding… do you mean who we think is correct on the ball OR who we are less embarrassed for OR who is less self-serving OR who we laugh at the least OR all the above?

Ben

[mr2686]

...and out of nowhere Ben comes in with a haymaker!!

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Jimmy,

By siding… do you mean who we think is correct on the ball OR who we are less embarrassed for OR who is less self-serving OR who we laugh at the least OR all the above?

Ben

I worded it like this, due to people taking sides for many different reasons Ben, as you pointed out.

[mschwade]

I voted neither because I've gotten to know both guys and respect both guys a great deal. Just wish they would find respect for each other.

[RichardSimon]

A follow up to Mike's post about Brooks Robinson at a show-
In the earlier years of the hobby when I was doing card shows regularly, Brooks Robinson was a guest at a show I was doing.
My son was a kid at this time and he worked my tables with me.
This was the days when promoters gave table holders free autographs. Don't we miss that?
My son got on line for Robinson. I left my table for a moment because I liked to take photos of my son with the players. As my son got to the table Brooks noticed me lining up below the stage with my camera. He stopped and posed with my son, then said to me take another. I said that was fine I got a good shot. He stopped the autograph line,came out from behind his table and put his arm around my son to pose for another photo.
A class act all the way and my favorite card show moment.

[ibuysportsephemera]

I purchased 2 large prints titled Rookie of the Year (I am sure many of you have seen these). One was for me and the other for my twin brother as a gift. They were mostly autographed previously, but needed Cepeda and Mays to be completed. I knew when I purchased them that they both would be at a show signing together in a month or so. My brother isn't into collecting but was excited to meet Mays and get our prints signed. Even though we were only 9 we both remember him coming to the Mets in 1973 as a big deal.

Long story short, Mays had no personality and didn't look up the whole time we were on line. When we got to him, I showed Mays where I wanted him to sign (across his uniform where it could be easily read). As I said my brother is not a collector, so when Mays asked him where he wanted the signature, he said anywhere. Wouldn't you know it, Mays signed next to his image in a dark area so that you can barely see the autograph. My brother was so upset and felt that Mays did it on purpose, but what could he do?

That was the last time I ever had a nice thought about Mays.

[RichardSimon]

I am sure he did do it on purpose and I have heard horror stories about other things he did on purpose in signing sessions .

[Hot Springs Bathers]

In Little Rock in the late 80's I saw Mays bounce baseballs he had just signed to the owners who were seperated from him by about 8 feet with handlers in between.

Sadly many card show promoters reveled in this behavior feeling they were "on the inside" with Mays or whoever.

To balance Mays at that show was Musial, dressed in sports coat and tie and shaking hands or posing with everyone! Brooks, Stan the Man, Banks, Spahn, Feller, Brock and many more really good guys took the edge off dealing with Mays during that period.

Just as an aside have you ever had a former football player be rude? I have heard some stories both ways on Y.A. Tittle but no one else? Several friends have told me that every former hockey player they have met at shows is just like Brooks Robinson. We don't get many foremr hockey players down south!

[Vintagedegu]

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[byrone]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

A follow up to Mike's post about Brooks Robinson at a show-
In the earlier years of the hobby when I was doing card shows regularly, Brooks Robinson was a guest at a show I was doing.
My son was a kid at this time and he worked my tables with me.
This was the days when promoters gave table holders free autographs. Don't we miss that?
My son got on line for Robinson. I left my table for a moment because I liked to take photos of my son with the players. As my son got to the table Brooks noticed me lining up below the stage with my camera. He stopped and posed with my son, then said to me take another. I said that was fine I got a good shot. He stopped the autograph line,came out from behind his table and put his arm around my son to pose for another photo.
A class act all the way and my favorite card show moment.

I remember reading in SCD many years ago a story about Brooks Robinson that meant much to me. A father and son were in line at a card show to get Robinson's signature when the son became ill. The father took the boy outside. As soon as he was made aware of the situation, Robinson left the autograph table and went outside to check on the ill child, comfort him, and ensure that he would be OK. Who else would do such a kind thing?

[thenavarro]

Many people voted, but not too many came into the thread and tipped their hand. I don't mind tipping mine.

I voted for Richard. I've been a customer of his for years and have always been satisfied by his service and his willingness to assist when I needed authenticity opinions on items I wasn't sure about, or other help. I've also found his authenticity opinions to be upheld by others that I value.

I value knowledge and integrity, and in my dealings with Richard, he's shown both. To the best of my belief, I don't have any dealings with Atkatz to judge those traits by. All I know of David is a limited exposure to reading some of his posts on this site when I check in every now and then. I also prefer Richard's posting style more and his online response to other posts, than I do David's.


My two pesos,

Mike Navarro

[thenavarro]

PS- For my friends that read my post above, I didn't post my reply to disparage David, as I don't know him and he very well could have the qualities I like, just don't have the experience with him to know. My intent is to show support for Richard.

Mike Navarro

[jimthorpe]

I vote for Kim Kardashian because she doesn't have enough drama in her life. These guys have plenty!

[tinkereversandme]

I don't want to start a new thread, but are these good?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f572b

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f56ff

I respect Mr. Simon but I have compared them to the Mantle's I have obtained in person and I want the opine of the knowledgable board for my education.

Thank you,

Regards,

Larry

P.S Brooks Robinson is my favorite player of all-time and just the best guy.

[Tigerden]

Originally Posted by tinkereversandme

I don't want to start a new thread, but are these good?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f572b

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f56ff

I respect Mr. Simon but I have compared them to the Mantle's I have obtained in person and I want the opine of the knowledgable board for my education.

Thank you,

Regards,

Larry

P.S Brooks Robinson is my favorite player of all-time and just the best guy.

Really, Richard Simon was one of the founders of PSA/DNA? I was not aware of that , that is news to me. BTW- the sigs look good IMO and Richard's COA would be enough for me to feel comfortable to purchase if desired.

[RichardSimon]

These items were brought to my attention previously by someone who wanted to buy one on ebay. He wanted to check the cert out. I told him what I am telling you guys now.
I communicated with the seller and told that seller that I was not a founder of PSA and that I no longer think that those autographs were good.
When PSA formed an authentication team for autographs, I was on it, as was Jim Stinson and Ron Gordon, along with Jimmy Spence. An original authenticator but hardly a founder.
As to the autographs - it does not happen often, but my opinion changed on these.
These certs were issued 9 years ago.
I have learned a lot more about Mantle sigs in the last 9 years.
We all learn things as we go along in this business.
I have told that seller to get his money back from the person he bought the autographs from. He did not want to.
I asked him to change his ad, he did not.

[mr2686]

I'm not trying to jump on anyone with this next comment, but I'm sure there are several people thinking this: We've all heard stories about autographs that were authenticated years ago by PSA and Spence that now, if resubmitted, do not pass. As of 2002 (per the certs from Richard Simon in this thread) Richard believed that those Mantle photos were legit. That's 7 years after Mantle died and I find it curious that there would be that much more that an expert could learn at that point. I guess what I'm getting at is, what the heck is the point of getting something authenticated if the people authenticating them change their opinion years later?

[RichardSimon]

No legitimate authenticator or legitimate autograph dealer will claim to be 100% accurate.
I made a mistake.
As I said in the earlier post we learn EVERY DAY. New forgers come on the scene with different styles and you have to look for different things.
I have told everyone what happened. I did the right thing when it was first pointed out to me.
How many in this business will admit to being wrong in this public forum?
Well, I did. I did not try to make up some lame coverup to say I think it is authentic.
I am very confident in the work I do. But being perfect is not something I would claim to be.

[mr2686]

Fair enough Richard, and you shouldn't be held to a higher standard than the rest of us...because none of us are perfect. But what I'm getting at in the bigger picture of things is...if a new forger comes along, he must still have some "tells' that don't match legit Mantle sigs. Let's face it, if they fooled you, even for a few years, then what hope do the rest of us have? Are some of these guys so good that the only way to know is when they get caught and then can compare their stuff to items already in the marketplace? Again, I'm just trying to understand and not trying to say anything bad about you Richard. Heck, I've purchased from you since the late 80's and have had you authenticate things as well (saved me some cash on a few things that went back to a dealer).

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Fair enough Richard, and you shouldn't be held to a higher standard than the rest of us...because none of us are perfect. But what I'm getting at in the bigger picture of things is...if a new forger comes along, he must still have some "tells' that don't match legit Mantle sigs. Let's face it, if they fooled you, even for a few years, then what hope do the rest of us have? Are some of these guys so good that the only way to know is when they get caught and then can compare their stuff to items already in the marketplace? Again, I'm just trying to understand and not trying to say anything bad about you Richard. Heck, I've purchased from you since the late 80's and have had you authenticate things as well (saved me some cash on a few things that went back to a dealer).

I can't speak to these specific items, but I do have some experience uncovering forgery styles (from other areas of collecting.)

Very often, some forgeries are "close enough" that they may appear to be slightly atypical, but okay.

It is through establishing a pattern over time that they are identified as fakes. For instance, you see the same **slightly off* signature coming consistently from a particular source. Or suddenly, 7 years after Mantle's death, the quantity of a **slightly off** style appears to be increasing in the market.

So the first ones through the chute can fool even experienced authenticators and collectors. However, the forgers usually get greedy and when the forgery style appears in volume, people start catching on.

[tjlives]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Richard, I had the same reaction about Mays. When you have autograph tickets for 20 hall of famers, and Mays is the 10th one you get on that day, and after meeting him you want to just go home and forget about collecting, that's saying something. Thank goodness that Brooks Robinson was number 11 on that day. He saved baseball in my world.

About seven or eight years ago, I went to a free signing out in Pennsylvania with Brooks that I think was to promote an indy league team and their sponsors (the details are a little fuzzy, I think it was promoting the Lancaster Barnstormers team awhile before the team started play). It was one of those deals where the players were supposed to be signing promotional items and nothing else, which the other players, not nearly as big of stars as Brooks Robinson, were sticking to. Can't blame them, that's what they were being paid for.

I got on the Brooks line maybe perhaps 100 people back, and noticed immediately that the line was pretty slow. I didn't really have a great idea of Brooks's rep at that time, so I was expecting the Willie Mays experience - slow, grumpy, maybe hung over.

Got up to the front of the line, and the reason the line was moving a bit slow was because Brooks was getting up and taking pictures with anyone who had a camera, having a nice chat with every single person, handing out his own signed 8x10 collages that he brought, and actually asking if people brought anything with them for him to sign - even though he wasn't supposed to be doing anything other than signing the commercial pre-print. The handlers running the signing were getting annoyed, but Brooks didn't care at all, and he ended up staying well past his allotted time because he wouldn't let the line get cut off until everyone who wanted his autograph had it. I took home two beautiful signed ROMLBs with HOF inscription that are proudly in my showcase, the Brooks-provided 8x10 which is also still in my collection, and a permanent fandom of Brooks Robinson.

And that's my Brooks Robinson story to add to the list. What a class act.