GOAT of GOATs?

[Arazi4442]

Not my choice, but an interesting addition to the conversation is Donald Bradman in Cricket. I found the entry below on Wikipedia. Doesn't look like he took into account more than one statistic (i.e. HRs in baseball, rebounds in basketball, etc.) but a very impressive athlete.

Statistician Charles Davis analysed the statistics for several prominent sportsmen by comparing the number of standard deviations that they stand above the mean for their sport. The top performers in his selected sports are:

Standard
deviations

Bradman
Cricket
Batting average
4.4

Pelé
Association football
Goals per game
3.7

Ty Cobb
Baseball
Batting average
3.6

Jack Nicklaus
Golf
Major titles
3.5

Michael Jordan
Basketball
Points per game
3.4

The statistics show that "no other athlete dominates an international sport to the extent that Bradman does cricket". In order to post a similarly dominant career statistic as Bradman, a baseball batter would need a career batting average of .392, while a basketball player would need to score an average of 43.0 points per game. The respective records are .366 and 30.1.

[joshuanip]

Did any of them change the way the entire sport played?

People emulated Jordan, but he didnt alter the game, like Babe did.

[the 'stache]

You couldn't stop Don Hutson. You could only hope to contain him.

Don Hutson, the greatest receiver in NFL history, did. He revolutionized the game as a vertical pass receiver. And, he dominated the game like no other player before or after. Jerry Rice, who is often (and incorrectly) referred to as the greatest receiver in NFL history, had peers, receivers who were as physically gifted as he was, who put up comparable numbers. Hutson had no peers. None. He played eleven seasons, and accomplished the receiver triple crown, leading the league in receptions, yards and touchdowns, in his seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth seasons. He did it five times, overall. Rice? He did it once in his twenty-one years played. Don't get me wrong, I think Rice was a fabulous player. I became a big Niners fan in the early Eighties because Joe Montana was their quarterback (we Gregorys are Fighting Irish fans), and Jerry Rice was one of my favorite players. But there were other receivers that were every bit as good as he was. Sterling Sharpe put up numbers that were just as good, and he didn't have Joe Montana or Steve Young throwing him the ball. He had the young, but talented Brett Favre before he became an NFL MVP. He had Don Majkowski during his one healthy, great season in 1989. The rest of the time, he was catching passes from Anthony Dilweg, Randy Wright, Blair Kiel and Mike Tomczak. The Packers had no running game, and no other receiving threat. Defenses knew that the ball was going to Sharpe, and they still couldn't stop him. His numbers were every bit as good as those put up by Jerry Rice. Then, there were guys like Herman Moore, Michael Irvin and Cris Carter.

Hutson's 99 TD receptions mark set in 1945 stood for forty-four years until the great Steve Largent broke his record. But Largent played fourteen seasons to Hutson's eleven, and, from his third season on, the league played sixteen games. NFL teams played eleven games in the Thirties and Forties. It took Largent 200 games to do what Hutson did in 116.

And since it's often brought up how great a pitcher Babe Ruth was, well, look at what Hutson did during his career besides dominating as a wide receiver (or, split end as the position was referred to). While Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss et all were sitting on the sidelines relaxing, watching the defense, Hutson was playing left end, and defensive back. In addition to his 99 receiving touchdowns, he also intercepted thirty passes. That's one more than four-time All Pro cornerback Darrell Revis has in his eleven year career playing defensive back full time. Look at Don Hutson's 1942 season. He caught 74 passes for 1,211 yards (the first 1,000 yard season in NFL history) and 17 touchdowns. AND, he intercepted seven passes. Oh, and Hutson was also the Packers' kicker.

If we're talking absolute statistical dominance of a sport, there's Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Don Hutson, Wayne Gretzky and Wilt Chamberlain. Ruth changed the game of baseball forever. So did Hutson.

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Did any of them change the way the entire sport played?

People emulated Jordan, but he didnt alter the game, like Babe did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It sucks that Hutson has no cards issued during his career.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You couldn't stop Don Hutson. You could only hope to contain him.

Don Hutson, the greatest receiver in NFL history, did. He revolutionized the game as a vertical pass receiver. And, he dominated the game like no other player before or after. Jerry Rice, who is often (and incorrectly) referred to as the greatest receiver in NFL history, had peers, receivers who were as physically gifted as he was, who put up comparable numbers. Hutson had no peers. None. He played eleven seasons, and accomplished the receiver triple crown, leading the league in receptions, yards and touchdowns, in his seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth seasons. He did it five times, overall. Rice? He did it once in his twenty-one years played. Don't get me wrong, I think Rice was a fabulous player. I became a big Niners fan in the early Eighties because Joe Montana was their quarterback (we Gregorys are Fighting Irish fans), and Jerry Rice was one of my favorite players. But there were other receivers that were every bit as good as he was. Sterling Sharpe put up numbers that were just as good, and he didn't have Joe Montana or Steve Young throwing him the ball. He had the young, but talented Brett Favre before he became an NFL MVP. He had Don Majkowski during his one healthy, great season in 1989. The rest of the time, he was catching passes from Anthony Dilweg, Randy Wright, Blair Kiel and Mike Tomczak. The Packers had no running game, and no other receiving threat. Defenses knew that the ball was going to Sharpe, and they still couldn't stop him. His numbers were every bit as good as those put up by Jerry Rice. Then, there were guys like Herman Moore, Michael Irvin and Cris Carter.

Hutson's 99 TD receptions mark set in 1945 stood for forty-four years until the great Steve Largent broke his record. But Largent played fourteen seasons to Hutson's eleven, and, from his third season on, the league played sixteen games. NFL teams played eleven games in the Thirties and Forties. It took Largent 200 games to do what Hutson did in 116.

And since it's often brought up how great a pitcher Babe Ruth was, well, look at what Hutson did during his career besides dominating as a wide receiver (or, split end as the position was referred to). While Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss et all were sitting on the sidelines relaxing, watching the defense, Hutson was playing left end, and defensive back. In addition to his 99 receiving touchdowns, he also intercepted thirty passes. That's one more than four-time All Pro cornerback Darrell Revis has in his eleven year career playing defensive back full time. Look at Don Hutson's 1942 season. He caught 74 passes for 1,211 yards (the first 1,000 yard season in NFL history) and 17 touchdowns. AND, he intercepted seven passes. Oh, and Hutson was also the Packers' kicker.

If we're talking absolute statistical dominance of a sport, there's Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Don Hutson, Wayne Gretzky and Wilt Chamberlain. Ruth changed the game of baseball forever. So did Hutson.

Wow, thank you for that info.

[howard38]

I don't question Hutson's greatness and I agree that by the numbers he was probably the most dominant NFL player ever. But if you're doing such a thorough analysis of his career you should note that over a third of his games and almost half his TDs came between 1942-1945 when the NFL was severely depleted because so many other players went to war.

[Writehooks]

Step aside, mere drops of water. Let the ocean pass. There's Ali, then there's everyone else.
The greatest fighter in the toughest division of the toughest sport. Not to mention that he was barred from fighting for three years at the peak of his career, yet still managed to become (by far) the most recognizable human being on the planet. Case closed.

[Bill77]

Not too surprised that no one has mentioned Richard Petty yet. Some of his achievements are impossible to beat by any current and possibly future driver, though some of that has more to do with current rules and schedules than anything else. I would say he would have a better case if he had not continued to race long after he was last competitive. Anyway here are some of his numbers:

Most wins 200, next closest is David Pearson with 105, and the closest active driver is Jimmie Johnson with 83.
From 1958-1970 Richard won 119 races vs. David Pearson's 58.

Most wins in a season 27, followed by season totals of 18 and 16. The next best total is Jeff Gordon's 13.

Most consecutive wins in a season 10.

From 1967-1971 he won 92 races.

[Bill77]

And then there is this guy:

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Bill77

Not too surprised that no one has mentioned Richard Petty yet. Some of his achievements are impossible to beat by any current and possibly future driver, though some of that has more to do with current rules and schedules than anything else. I would say he would have a better case if he had not continued to race long after he was last competitive. Anyway here are some of his numbers:

Most wins 200, next closest is David Pearson with 105, and the closest active driver is Jimmie Johnson with 83.
From 1958-1970 Richard won 119 races vs. David Pearson's 58.

Most wins in a season 27, followed by season totals of 18 and 16. The next best total is Jeff Gordon's 13.

Most consecutive wins in a season 10.

From 1967-1971 he won 92 races.

Petty's stats are a bit like comparing Cy Young's stats to modern pitchers. Of course, Petty in the discussion for the greatest NASCAR driver of all-time. But during the first 15 years of his career, the schedule was always 45-55 races. In the modern era, the schedule was 29 races for many years, and it still is nowhere near as many races each season as Petty ran during his prime.

Petty also had factory support in an era when many of the other top drivers did not race the entire schedule. Are his 200 wins really more impressive than the totals of Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson racing in a more competitive era in which all the top teams followed the entire schedule?

[the 'stache]

What's your source? Because, I have to believe that John Lennon, Elvis and John Kennedy would have given Ali a run for his money as far as worldwide recognition went in the 60s.

Originally Posted by Writehooks

Step aside, mere drops of water. Let the ocean pass. There's Ali, then there's everyone else.
The greatest fighter in the toughest division of the toughest sport. Not to mention that he was barred from fighting for three years at the peak of his career, yet still managed to become (by far) the most recognizable human being on the planet. Case closed.

[the 'stache]

If he'd seen an artificial increase in his production, it would be worth mentioning. But he was already the dominant receiver in the game. In 1941, before the U.S. entered WW II, he led the NFL with 58 catches, 738 yards and 10 receiving TDs. The second time he led the NFL in all three categories. He had a freakish 1942 season with those 17 scores, but then he had 11, 9 and 9 the last three years of his career. None of those final three seasons were outside of his norms before the outbreak of WW II.

The war hadn't started for the U.S. when had 34 catches for 846 yards and 6 TD in 1939. The best players in the NFL sure didn't slow him down then, as he averaged a whopping 24.9 yards per catch.

What, in any of his career performance prior to the entrance of NFL players into WW II indicates that he wouldn't have been just as dominant had those players never left? In seven seasons, he'd already led the NFL in catches and yards four times each, and receiving TD six times.

Nobody could stop Hutson.

Originally Posted by howard38

I don't question Hutson's greatness and I agree that by the numbers he was probably the most dominant NFL player ever. But if you're doing such a thorough analysis of his career you should note that over a third of his games and almost half his TDs came between 1942-1945 when the NFL was severely depleted because so many other players went to war.

[the 'stache]

It does, Peter. It also sucks that I don't yet own that card. I will though.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It sucks that Hutson has no cards issued during his career.

Thank you for participating in this discussion.

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Wow, thank you for that info.

[Johnny Ballgame]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Not my choice, but an interesting addition to the conversation is Donald Bradman in Cricket.[/B]

We had the same idea at the same time -- I just got distracted by writing about Joe Davis. I should've thought of expressing it in standard deviations. Nice.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ballgame

We had the same idea at the same time -- I just got distracted by writing about Joe Davis. I should've thought of expressing it in standard deviations. Nice.

Ha! Just to be clear. The standard deviation math was not mine.