T210 Red Borders

[John V]

What is the line of thinking on how Series 1 through 8 were issued? One series at a time or all in one shot? Assuming Series 1 came first, when during the baseball season were they first released?
The Standard Catalog does not address.
John

[Bill Stone]

That is a very interesting question ---let me add a fact and see if we can, as a group, figure this out. Casey Stengel was pictured on the T210 Series 6 card in a Maysville uniform. He started the season with Shelbyville and the franchise was transferred to Maysville on August 24, 1910 so this card at least must have been produced very late in the season.Since he only played a combined total of 69 games in 1910 he must have appeared in very few games for Maysville. I hope this will be of help.

[Tom Hufford]

I've always assumed (although I don't have anything to back it up) that these cards were distributed regionally - the Virginia League cards in the Virginia area, Blue Grass League in Kentucky, etc.

I can't see the marketing appeal of including Southern League players in cigarettes sold in Virginia, or cards from the Maysville, KY team being included in packs sold in New Orleans.

I've always wanted to run across an Old Mill newspaper ad from one of these cities, that pictured the cards being offered - but so far, no luck.

[Bill Stone]

I should also add that the transfer of Shelbyville to Maysville in 1910 is not conclusive since there were 3 Shelbyville players ( Kircher, Van Landingham and Womble)depicted in the Shelbyville uniform for the T210 Series 6 issue.

[skybar]

The time line of manufacture and distribution is something that may never be figured out.

Another example: Keifel is pictured with Richmond on Series 2 from his time with the team in 1909 and also for Lexington in Series 6 from 1910. This has always struck me as curious.

Shawn

[DixieBaseball]

Is this in fact the same Keifel in series 2 or a brother ?

[FrankWakefield]

SABR's ml database shows George Keifel playing for Dayton of the Central League in 1908, both Richmond and Portsmouth of the Virginia League in 1909, and then the Lexington Colts of the Bluegrass League in 1910. He was a weakhitting, part time catcher, hitting .159, .207, and .192.

The database also shows a Keifel of unknown first name playing in 1912 for St. Thomas in the Canadian League.... but that can't be George. The guy in the CL hit .273 at an unknown position, if that was George he'd have played another year somewhere.

I think the two Keifel cards in T210 are for George Keifel. In the fall of 1909 Old Mill starts out with their red border cards, the first 2 or 3 series go well enough, so they expand. Son of a gun, Keifel isn't with Richmond anymore, so Old Mill gets the card updated to depict Keifel with his new Lexington, Ky team. That's what I think at the present...

FW

[oaks1912]

I'm in the same boat as Tom's suggestion above. Several groups of 'outside the hobby' T-210's that I've discovered in the past were all the same series. Old Mill backed T-206's have turned up in original collections from my area, but never T-210 (unless the family had relocated from another part of the country)

[John V]

From my microfilm research of "The State" newspaper in the Columbia library, (my head is continues to spin), I found an article regarding the signing and arrival of Rudy Schwietzka to spring practice in Columbia on or about 3/25/1910. Schwietzka came highly recommended by Columbia player Ray Marshall (T210).
This points to Series 1 being issued after the start of the season, in order to have a photo of Schwietzka in uniform.

[FrankWakefield]

John, I am glad you're digging through those papers!! Stay at it, and post what you find, please sir.

As for Schwietzka, if the image on T210 of him shows him in Columbia uniform, then I agree. T210 could show him in a 1909 uniform... T210 series 1 might not have been issued all at once, some initially, then some others added or as replacements. My point is that the 3-25-10 date doesn't prove as much as it might initially seem.

It certainly seems to me that T210s were issued regionally. A cigarette smoker in Kentucky would have been more likely to buy manufactured cigarettes if the cards included were of Bluegrass League players instead of all of those various players many of whom were unknown in Kentucky. Definitely a regional issue. It would take some incentive to get a Kentucky fellow to pay that money out when he could have saved money and roll his own.

And, it seems to me that Series 1 would have rolled out before Series 6, Series 7, or Series 8.

Finally, I don't think that all of the cards are out there in equal numbers. Either many were double printed while some weren't, or there was a change in which cards were being printed and distributed. The latter seems more likely to me.

[Troy Kirk]

Here is an ad from a Texas newspaper advertising Texas League Old Mill cards.

[mybuddyinc]

Don't know if this adds anything. But, Series 1 Schulze is one of the only T210 players I've ever seen who's uniform does not match his team.

He played for Savannah in 1909 and Macon in 1910.



mac.schulze.jpg

[Potomac Yank]

I think Tom would like to see the pictures being offered in the various Old Mill market areas.

You found the Texas market, you're half way there.
Now hunt down the newspaper ad with the local pictures.
You're doing better than I, I'm just getting the feel for the T210's.

Go get 'em Troy!

[John V]

In today's research I saw several Old Mill ads, but not until 4/24/10 did I see the blurb "Baseball pictures and valuable coupon inside". It appears the ads were in each Thursday edition of the paper.
Were cards not available until mid to late April???

Also, A.J Reach ads often appeared in the sports section

[FrankWakefield]

Scott,

I've checked through the T210s I have, and all of the uniforms match up to the captions.

I don't recall any others that do not match. I'd think there are very few like that. Good eye!

[Old Mill Man]

Originally Posted by Troy Kirk

Here is an ad from a Texas newspaper advertising Texas League Old Mill cards.

The ad reads almost like the H-801-7 Old Mill Cabinet cards ,the article I am writing is getting good as I am researching all the players birth and death dates,I am taking my time doing this and the honest truth is I am finally back to dating after going through a nasty divorce,so give me time guys and I will tell you some tales I have been told and other interesting tidbits as to the toughies and not so toughies,Stay tuned!!!!!!

[oldjudge]

Troy--Am I imagining it or does it appear that there are two cards in the pack in the ad? Also, in the text they say "cards".

[Troy Kirk]

Well, it's a standard Old Mill ad that was used in 1910 in newspapers around the country, but this particular ad was printed in a Texas newspaper and modified to say Texas League cards. Most of the time when these ads appeared, the text said "Baseball pictures."

Yes, the ad does show two baseball cards coming out of the pack and they are T206 cards. But I think this ad was really for T210 cards when it was printed in Texas. According to oldtime collector Wirt Gammon, collectors did get 2 cards in a cigarette pack back then, not one.