PLEASE don't EVER do this to someone at the card shop/cards show......(i.e. ZIP IT)

[mintacular]

So I'm at one of my favorite LCS today picking out a few cards for personal collection but also resale purposes. We have a pretty good report over the years and while his prices are usually HIGH END retail he and I have come to an understanding that I don't pay those prices, so long as I buy a larger lot of cards. I typically pick up some off-grade stuff, random miscuts, etc. and so it is in his best interest and mine to come up with a price that works for both us....and for the most part it usually works out.

Anyway, today I had my usual pile of this stuff and as he is flipping through them considering my offer this LOUDMOUTH regular watching the transaction decides to have diarrhea of the mouth and run his mouth on and on about how TOUGH the '61 high numbers I have picked out are to get, especially compared to the '62s, etc. and a couple other pearls of wisdom. Anyway, by the end of the deal, my shop owner buddy needless to say seem slightly disappointed with my offer price, probably in part by HOW TOUGH THESE 61 HIGH NUMBERS were according to the jabber-jaw in the peanut gallery...

Am I right to be upset? I shot an ugly luck towards the blabber-mouth but also wanted to give a swift kick to the cajones.... Am I overreacting????

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

no you're not overreacting. I see this at shows and have even caught myself wanting to show off my knowledge and then realize it might screw up a transaction and managed to keep my big mouth shut.

[pclpads]

Pat - you are spot on. If it was me, I would have - not so politely - told him to just STFU or go outside. Just another basically rude MF who doesn't know the rules.

[jimm]

Probably had an empty wallet to go with his big mouth as well

[hcv123]

Guy was an ass.

[Jewish-collector]

Pat - Why didn't you say what Tom Cruise says, "Sometimes you gotta say WTF" and then kick him ?

[Stampsfan]

Some people have to show how smart they are. Plus sticking his useless opinion into your business. So... STFU.

I've learned it's OK for someone to tell you something you already know, and to actually let them tell you. It makes them feel good, and what's wrong with that?

[Steve D]

Heck, if i'd've been in your shoes, I might've given him a hit Jack Lambert would've been proud of!


Steve

[hcv123]

You also could've called him out and said if "they're so rare" I guess you're a buyer at 20% more than I'm offering!!" - he either has to pony up and buy them to support his opinion in which case perhaps you lose that deal, but maybe score some points with the owner - or he pipes down, because I notice many times when guys feel a need to run their mouths - is a very different story if they need to back it up with their $$$.

[jfkheat]

I had something similar happen at a show years ago. A dealer had three raw high grade 60s Mantle cards I was interested in. As we were trying to make a deal another guy started running his mouth like your guy did. I listened for a couple minutes then handed the cards back to the dealer and told him I would be back when the idiot left. 30 minutes later I went back and we made a deal.
James

[glynparson]

Honestly if he was the shop owners friend and honestly felt you were taking advantage of his friend with your offer I have zero problem with him opening his mouth. Were they average hi numbers it were the tougher ones there. Honestly ion the surface I agree with your premise but without knowing all the facts inm not positive he was wrong

[packs]

If a guy owns a card shop he should reasonably be expected to know what he has and price them for what he wants to sell them for.

[luciobar1980]

I don't think I've experienced that sort of thing directly, but yes, I would be annoyed. But I'd also be kinda annoyed at the dealer if he somehow let that affect his price.

[bigfanNY]

And let's not forget Net 54 BST. Going on an active thread where a deal has already been struck and telling the seller " you hope he wasn't taken advantage of". When clearly what you mean "is I saw this late and want these cards and will pay more money" is wrong, unethical I think is the correct term.
There have been similar threads about this type of behavior on Ebay before but the recent example on BST is the clearest example of this type of unethical behavior I have seen in a long time.
JMHO

[Johnny630]

From my experience in the hobby when the conversation about cost or money comes along people act very weird/strange. I’ve witnesses excitement, fear, shock and paranoia sometimes all at once.

[clydepepper]

Howard & James (posts 9 & 10)- those are two excellent ways to handle the situation described...bravo!

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

And let's not forget Net 54 BST. Going on an active thread where a deal has already been struck and telling the seller " you hope he wasn't taken advantage of". When clearly what you mean "is I saw this late and want these cards and will pay more money" is wrong, unethical I think is the correct term.
There have been similar threads about this type of behavior on Ebay before but the recent example on BST is the clearest example of this type of unethical behavior I have seen in a long time.
JMHO

Is there a thread about it? Who did that? That's messed up!

[bigfanNY]

Howard:
Yes it is Messed up. Leon gave the the offender an infraction. Go to BST under Modern 1980 and newer, the thread is 1979 1981 and 1983 Vending Boxes.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by mintacular

So I'm at one of my favorite LCS today picking out a few cards for personal collection but also resale purposes. We have a pretty good report over the years and while his prices are usually HIGH END retail he and I have come to an understanding that I don't pay those prices, so long as I buy a larger lot of cards. I typically pick up some off-grade stuff, random miscuts, etc. and so it is in his best interest and mine to come up with a price that works for both us....and for the most part it usually works out.

Anyway, today I had my usual pile of this stuff and as he is flipping through them considering my offer this LOUDMOUTH regular watching the transaction decides to have diarrhea of the mouth and run his mouth on and on about how TOUGH the '61 high numbers I have picked out are to get, especially compared to the '62s, etc. and a couple other pearls of wisdom. Anyway, by the end of the deal, my shop owner buddy needless to say seem slightly disappointed with my offer price, probably in part by HOW TOUGH THESE 61 HIGH NUMBERS were according to the jabber-jaw in the peanut gallery...

Am I right to be upset? I shot an ugly luck towards the blabber-mouth but also wanted to give a swift kick to the cajones.... Am I overreacting????

Dealer seemed "slightly disappointed"

"probably . . . according to the . . . peanut gallery"


Was "slightly disappointed" your perception, or did he tell you so?

Is "probably" your assumption?

Lot's of ways to interpret things or misinterpret things.

Not being there, couldn't say if you are overreacting or not.



The big question is . . .Did you buys the cards at a price the two of you agreed upon?

[pokerplyr80]

I agree running your mouth while someone else is trying to make a deal is pretty bad form. Unless some little old lady is about to be ripped off selling her husband's collection I would keep any comments to myself.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Howard:
Yes it is Messed up. Leon gave the the offender an infraction. Go to BST under Modern 1980 and newer, the thread is 1979 1981 and 1983 Vending Boxes.

The seller priced $1000 in goods at $40. I felt compelled to let him know. I apologize, I was out of place and it won't happen again.

[bigfanNY]

Sean: First 3 vending boxes 79 80 81 that have been searched and had the "big cards" removed are not worth anywhere near A thousand dollars. All the value is in the chance that you pull one of the "BIG" cards and that it grades high. is there some value for set collectors trying to get high grade commons sure.
But most importantly stepping on a deal is just not cool. I know you are a dealer and the dollars and cents matter. But at a card show, card shop, Ebay, BST, it dose not matter when two people agree on a deal stopping in is wrong. Even little old lady selling husbands collection if she is negotiating with a dealer at his table or in his shop stepping in is wrong. if She steps away then you are free to "help her"
I think twice in the Many shows I did I had another dealer attempt to step in while Myself or my Dad was negotiating and I politely using my best NJ manners moved him away and explained that when we were done he could step in and not before.
I know it is not easy when you see a card or a collection you would like sell for less than you are willing to pay. nut doing the right thing is not always easy.
Jonathan Sterling

[NotVader]

Delightful Username!!

Mintacular I simply Love it

Simple Show Etiquette was violated you are not over-reacting!


I do a lot of table-sitting as I am not too mobile I tend to hear and see a lot by observing behind-the-scenes of dealings -- I must say "Side Talk" it is the
most common show faux pas. The guy is ignorant so its more on you to know this is a common impediment and stomp his face like Boba.


Go Gators

CV

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Sean: First 3 vending boxes 79 80 81 that have been searched and had the "big cards" removed are not worth anywhere near A thousand dollars. All the value is in the chance that you pull one of the "BIG" cards and that it grades high. is there some value for set collectors trying to get high grade commons sure.
But most importantly stepping on a deal is just not cool. I know you are a dealer and the dollars and cents matter. But at a card show, card shop, Ebay, BST, it dose not matter when two people agree on a deal stopping in is wrong. Even little old lady selling husbands collection if she is negotiating with a dealer at his table or in his shop stepping in is wrong. if She steps away then you are free to "help her"
I think twice in the Many shows I did I had another dealer attempt to step in while Myself or my Dad was negotiating and I politely using my best NJ manners moved him away and explained that when we were done he could step in and not before.
I know it is not easy when you see a card or a collection you would like sell for less than you are willing to pay. nut doing the right thing is not always easy.
Jonathan Sterling

Jonathan, my sleep schedule has been a bit shifted since I arrived back in the country last week and admittedly in a very late night stupor I made an error. I've already apologized for the error. I vehemently disagree with your comment about "dollars and cents" and find it to be rather rude, I believe my comments on the thread actually show quite the opposite.

[pokerplyr80]

I read the thread in question and in fairness to Sean it sounded like he was just trying to help the seller not get taken advantage of and wasn't trying to steal anyone's deal. I have personally done business with him a few times and was treated very fairly.

[bigfanNY]

So you are saying that when 2 people hae negotiated a deal on BST it is ok for you to post on someone else's thread that you think they are selling the item to low? That is never ok it is unethical every time. If he thought price was too low he could have waited until the deal was completed and started a new thread about prices of Vending boxes that were searched and had all the "big" cards removed. he dose not need to apologize to me but the OP and the Buyer.
There have been a few threads about this type of behavior on Ebay where deals fall through because of this exact type of interference. No one would like this done to them. So golden rule applies don't do anything to anyone else you wouldn't want done to you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

So you are saying that when 2 people hae negotiated a deal on BST it is ok for you to post on someone else's thread that you think they are selling the item to low?

I didnt think Sean's comment was that big a deal and, in all reality, a deal hadn't been negotiated yet when he made the comment.

There was a '62 partial set for sale earlier today on the BST where the seller wanted $450, but accidentally wrote $45. Someone PM'd him to inform him of the error. Is that interference too? I don't see a difference rather that one comment is public and one is private, but both comments had the same purpose which was to question the sellers asking price.

[frankbmd]

As a seller whose listing price is 10% of market value for whatever reason, I would find the person who notifies me of my pricing error to be more honorable than a mum buyer who wants to make a quick deal for the asking price.

I have had experiences with both types individuals on BST. The honorable ones know who they are. The others probably do as well.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

So you are saying that when 2 people hae negotiated a deal on BST it is ok for you to post on someone else's thread that you think they are selling the item to low? That is never ok it is unethical every time. If he thought price was too low he could have waited until the deal was completed and started a new thread about prices of Vending boxes that were searched and had all the "big" cards removed. he dose not need to apologize to me but the OP and the Buyer.
There have been a few threads about this type of behavior on Ebay where deals fall through because of this exact type of interference. No one would like this done to them. So golden rule applies don't do anything to anyone else you wouldn't want done to you.

Sean admitted he made a mistake and apologized. I'm not saying it's ok to interfere with a deal between two other parties. But there is a point when someone is selling something for so far below its market value that the question of what's ethical becomes a gray area at best. If Sean really believed this guy was selling $1000 worth of cards for 40 bucks that's 4% of its value. I think that would qualify as ok to give the seller a heads up. What if he had posted a 10k card for 400 bucks? Or a 100k card for 4k?

The issue isn't quite as black and white as you are making it out to be.

[bigfanNY]

First if you look at thread 20 minutes before Sean's post there is a post that says PM sent. Clearly a buyer marking his territory. Leon would not have posted that Sean was given an infraction if there had not been CLEAR EVIDENCE . But feel free to make up some more alternate theories about how he was doing the right thing trying to help the seller and not trying to step on a deal that was none of his business.
Theory one it's ok to help old lady trying to sell her husbands collection. ( sorry not what happened)
Theory two it's ok to let a seller know about a typo. (sorry not what happened)
I am not saying Sean is a bad guy or that this is a big deal. But I think it is wrong to interfere. Like I said before I don't do it to other people because I would not like it done to me.

[Dewey]

Is this some sort of trick to drive more traffic to 1980s Section of the BST?

I understand the issues with interference. But given the rare case, an infraction is a small price to pay for a matter of conscience.

[pokerplyr80]

PM sent means nothing other than the obvious, a message was sent. Had someone wrote I will take it that's another story. With most sellers, myself included, an offer to buy takes precedence over ongoing negotiations.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

PM sent means nothing other than the obvious, a message was sent.

Exactly. In fact, there was even a thread about this very subject not too long ago.

Edited to add: I was one of the ones that inquired about the vending boxes. Unfortunately, I was too late. My reply was "I've got half a dozen people ahead of you." At that price, I can see why. So was the first "PM Sent" the buyer? IDK. But I believe Sean was looking out for the seller. Maybe he thought the seller made a pricing mistake? If so, that's a reasonable assumption. I would have paid a lot more than the seller's asking price for those vending boxes. They were priced at $40, I would have paid $140. You have to figure that just the '79 vending box probably had at least 450 cards left, and even at $.25 a card that it's worth $112.00. That's not even including the other 2 boxes. Again, there was a reason there were half a dozen people ahead of me. So it was reasonable for Sean to think it might have been a pricing mistake and speak up...and he gets an infraction for it??? Oh well, no good deed goes unpunished.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I didnt think Sean's comment was that big a deal and, in all reality, a deal hadn't been negotiated yet when he made the comment.

There was a '62 partial set for sale earlier today on the BST where the seller wanted $450, but accidentally wrote $45. Someone PM'd him to inform him of the error. Is that interference too? I don't see a difference rather that one comment is public and one is private, but both comments had the same purpose which was to question the sellers asking price.

There is a big difference to me. When Sean got the infraction I actually told him to do a PM next time. Pm's are different than public posts in a thread on this forum. Mods (and other members) don't see PMs and they aren't any of our business. However, there is a rule against interfering in a BST sale publicly. It is enforced.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

There is a big difference to me. When Sean got the infraction I actually told him to do a PM next time. Pm's are different than public posts in a thread on this forum. Mods (and other members) don't see PMs and they aren't any of our business. However, there is a rule against interfering in a BST sale publicly. It is enforced.

So interfering privately is acceptable? To me, interference is interference...publically or privately. That's just me though.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So interfering privately is acceptable? To me, interference is interference...publically or privately. That's just me though.

I am not saying interfering privately is good. It's just not something I worry about as moderator.

[jhs5120]

"PM sent" is meaningless to me. I've had buyers write "PM sent" on my BST posts then send me a PM with a low-ball offer. You can't stall a sale with "PM sent" then try to haggle. I find that to be interference as well.

If Sean had wrote, "I'll give you $80 for the vending lot" would that still be interference? A seller has the right to field offers. You shouldn't handcuff a BST post with "PM sent" without making your offer public.

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
So interfering privately is acceptable? To me, interference is interference...publically or privately. That's just me though.

So which is it Interfering is wrong or it's ok if your buddy Sean dose it because he was "just trying to help".
If it was a pricing mistake then Buyer and Seller will work it out. Not OK to interfere.
Not OK to post on someone's BST that I will give you twice your asking price, That is clear interferance. Not OK to interfere.
If the OP received a PM or email saying I will take it then According to BST rules as I understand them he owns it. Not OK to send a private email or message saying you will pay more, that is interferance. NOT OK TO INTERFERE.
That is all I am trying to say and it is just my opinion and also law of the land part of the Uniform Commercial Code as pointed out by lawyer in previous thread.
Notice that I did not state my opinion under someone else's BST post because.... maybe you get it maybe you dont.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

"PM sent" is meaningless to me. I've had buyers write "PM sent" on my BST posts then send me a PM with a low-ball offer. You can't stall a sale with "PM sent" then try to haggle. I find that to be interference as well.

If Sean had wrote, "I'll give you $80 for the vending lot" would that still be interference? A seller has the right to field offers. You shouldn't handcuff a BST post with "PM sent" without making your offer public.

Agreed....PM sent could mean anything....

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
So interfering privately is acceptable? To me, interference is interference...publically or privately. That's just me though.

So which is it Interfering is wrong or it's ok if your buddy Sean dose it because he was "just trying to help".
If it was a pricing mistake then Buyer and Seller will work it out. Not OK to interfere.
Not OK to post on someone's BST that I will give you twice your asking price, That is clear interferance. Not OK to interfere.
If the OP received a PM or email saying I will take it then According to BST rules as I understand them he owns it. Not OK to send a private email or message saying you will pay more, that is interferance. NOT OK TO INTERFERE.
That is all I am trying to say and it is just my opinion and also law of the land part of the Uniform Commercial Code as pointed out by lawyer in previous thread.
Notice that I did not state my opinion under someone else's BST post because.... maybe you get it maybe you dont.

Unless you respond in the post “I will take this” the item is still fair game for offers. “PM sent” is meaningless.

No one can call dibs on negotiating on an item. If you walk into a store, that’s one thing. If you post on a public forum, the public is allowed to make offers until the item is sold.

[bigfanNY]

Stop with the PM means nothing. if someone wants the item rules say send or post a message saying I will take it.
It is not ok to send or post a message saying I will pay twice what you are asking. That is interferance. And Interfering is not OK.
If a seller posts an item with "taking offers" then ok to field offers. If he posts an item with a price then just like Ebay when you press "Buy it now" button When someone says I will take it they own it at that price.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

So which is it Interfering is wrong or it's ok if your buddy Sean dose it because he was "just trying to help".

I personally don't think what Sean did was interfering. The BST rules say, "favorable comments are generally permitted by third parties." It was a favorable comment to the seller.

[bobbyw8469]

Stop with the PM means nothing. if someone wants the item rules say send or post a message saying I will take it.

Let me rephrase...if I'm selling a card, and a member says "PM Sent" on a card, that could mean ANYTHING.....it could mean, I will take it at your asking price, or it could mean, I will offer you half of what you are asking. Take your pick.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Stop with the PM means nothing. if someone wants the item rules say send or post a message saying I will take it.
It is not ok to send or post a message saying I will pay twice what you are asking. That is interferance. And Interfering is not OK.
If a seller posts an item with "taking offers" then ok to field offers. If he posts an item with a price then just like Ebay when you press "Buy it now" button When someone says I will take it they own it at that price.

Really? Until that post says "SOLD" , "I'll take it"or "SALE PENDING" its all fair game. If I was buying something for a fraction of the value I would post "I'll take it" immediately just to avoid the negotiation and someone else snagging it. Why cant I offer double? I can offer double on eBay, just not as a BIN.

S Suckow

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Let me rephrase...if I'm selling a card, and a member says "PM Sent" on a card, that could mean ANYTHING.....it could mean, I will take it at your asking price, or it could mean, I will offer you half of what you are asking. Take your pick.

Agreed. For me, I will put a "PM sent" simply because I want the seller to know that I've sent you a message, and I hope they will see it.

I just completed a transaction in the last week on the BST. I was willing to pay the full price, but living in Canada, I realize that is a problem for some. I wanted to make it straightforward and as simple as I could for options and pricing on shipping, all for the seller.

I would have put "I'll take it", but if I do so, and the shipping becomes a problem, it's not fair to the seller. If everyone else thinks it's been sold, but seller won't ship to me, it becomes an issue for that seller to have an "I'll take it" on the thread.

[bigfanNY]

last post on this thread
"his comments were favorable to seller" But not to the buyer. Interfering is not OK

PM means nothing ..Ok Then nothing stops him from sending PM and saying I will take it. BUT That's not what he did he posted interference. Interfering is not OK

I can offer double on Ebay, just not on a BIN. Seller posting an item for sale with a price listed on BST is just like a BIN. All you need to do is say I will take it. Saying you will pay double on BST is exactly like sending a note to Ebay seller who just sold am item and offering double. Interfering is not OK

Find the thread where a guy posted a deal he got on Ebay here and his friend sent note to seller "Just to help Seller" offering him more. Seller cancels sale guy not only loses out on deal but a friendship. Interferance is not ok. If you disagree ,free country Your choice go ahead. But there will always be a consequence. Someone will be hurt.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

If Sean had wrote, "I'll give you $80 for the vending lot" would that still be interference? A seller has the right to field offers. You shouldn't handcuff a BST post with "PM sent" without making your offer public.

If Sean (or anyone, obviously) put that in there BEFORE there was an indication of an 'I will take it' type response from a buyer, or a 'sold' notification from the seller, then no. If he did that AFTER such an indication, then yes. (IMO)

ANYTHING done via PM is private. And personally, I don't care what you call it (help, interference, love, hate, whatever) and it could be situationally different. It is really on the BUYER as to how he responds to it.

And PM sent means only PM sent. To be honest, I've always interpreted it to be an extra notification to the seller that the person who sent it just wanted to make sure they checked, and/or as placeholder in case the sellers inbox was full.

[Republicaninmass]

I'll take it > everything and anything else

[rats60]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

As a seller whose listing price is 10% of market value for whatever reason, I would find the person who notifies me of my pricing error to be more honorable than a mum buyer who wants to make a quick deal for the asking price.

I have had experiences with both types individuals on BST. The honorable ones know who they are. The others probably do as well.

+1. I would like someone to notify me if I made I pricing error. I have done that in the past when things have been offered to me too cheap. I wouldn't want to be known as someone who tries to buy things for 10%. I prefer to try to make sure both sides are happy on deals.