I'm surprised at everyone's patience

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Posted By: David 

I realize that many have groused here and even tried to do something about the all the AAA & NASA graded card in the Pre-1950 graded card section. I don’t deal with many of Pre-War cards, so it’s no skin off my nose. But, if I did, I would be embarrassed looking at the featured listings. If I was a seller would be furious at how it will potentially skewer bids and permanently scares people away from the area. If this was happening in areas I specialize in, I would raise bloody Hell.

I want to point out two things, on this topic.

First, AAA is an acronym for ‘American Authentication Association.’ This is not authentication. Authentication necessitates sincerity. If what you say is literally correct but presented in a way to pull the wool over someone eyes (usually to drum up more bidding), that, by definition, is not authentication. Authentication of one of these items would include the phrase of, for example, “I cut this picture out a Spalding Guide last week” or otherwise state that the item is not a card in the accepted sense.

Secondly, if they haven’t already, I think it’s a crock and an embarrassment to the hobby that Beckett, SCD, Tuff Stuff and SMR have not written explicitly about these and other graders. If they have any sense of loyalty to their readers and worry about their well being— many who are beginners, young, unfamiliar with early cards and specifically pick up the magazine for guidance— they would do this. It is apparent that these magazines have different concerns, most likely the advertising base. I hold them partially responsible, because if any one of these magazines wrote a good article on the subject, eBay would do something do something about these graders. This is my personal challenge to these magazines, and the magazine does the right thing will earn my respect.

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Posted By: David

On a somewhat related and intriguing topic, the 5 digit zip code was introduced in 1963. I'll let you figure out the significance of that historical fact.

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Posted By: David

UP and UPI are not the same thing, and the difference is more than technicality. There is no such thing as a 1910s Wirephoto. By its very nature, a Wirephoto cannot be an original photograph. Only certain and identifiable kinds of photographs were use to make printed pictures.

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Posted By: jeff s

because of the vast increases of second- and third-class mail? to allow for more effecient sorting (particularly pre-sorting) and transportation of said mail?

not sure what the connection is that you are making here, but i'm curious...

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Posted By: jeff s

ditto--until a few weeks ago, I only browsed the "pre-1950->non-graded" section. When I switched to browsing all of the graded stuff too, I was stunned that half of the featured auctions were AAA/NASA/etc.

Some observations:

1. It always looks to me like the money-making aspect of these enterprises is questionable. I think featuring your auction costs $15 above and beyond regular listing fees. It seems like a decent number of the magazine clippings go for $10.

2. Isn't there (or didn't there used to be) a feedback level at which eBay would say "enough is enough"? And doesn't the main purveyor of this stuff have something like 40 negs? That's quite a few for someone allowed to do all of these things (featured auctions, private auctions, etc.) that eBay places all sorts of restrictions on.

3. Does eBay EVER step in and "move" auctions? Their boilerplate has all sorts of stuff about it (they reserve the right to end mis-categorized auctions; to move them, etc.), but I've never known of any auctions that were moved or ended. I mean, a John Deere tractor was listed in the pre-1950 section a couple of weeks ago. My point is--is it reasonable to expect that in this case, they would do anything, when the only thing this guy is doing that violates eBay rules is listing a clipping in the card section?

I would think the most effective way to stop somebody that is offensive to us would require doing something more questionable than what he does -- since it impossible to contact all potential customers, we have to get him off ebay. Since it's impossible (or so it seems) to get him off ebay simply because of his current violations, it must be shown that he is violating something else. I know that buyer's can file fraud complaints through eBay...perhaps somebody could convince past buyers to file such compliants, or we could all invest $10 in a clipping to file a complaint, and if enough complaints piled up, THAT might be enough to get rid of him.

Until, of course, he got a new ID.

Just my thoughts.

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Posted By: David

As many of us are well aware, the only time eBay does something is if there's a story in the national press. When an obviously fake T206 Wagner was put up for auction, there were probably 100 complaints to which eBay said they could not do anything. But as soon as MSNBC did a story, the card was removed right away. This is why I say the ball is now in Beckett, SCD, Tuff Stuff's court. As Bush would say, "It's time Beckett got a backbone."

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Posted By: petecld

For the record: Don't take this post as a defense of these sellers. The sellers of AAA and NASA items are scum and the hobby would be better without them. I have complained to ebay about "libertyforall" and have contacted bidders and I was told by ebay to stay out or be banned and some of the bidders told me they have the right to buy what they want and pay what they want. I can't argue with that. IT IS A FREE COUNTRY. "liberyforall" is a power seller so ebay won't touch him.

(Note: I read a dozen of their offerings, not all so you may be able to find other examples of claims)

Sadly, there is nothing in their descriptions that I found fraudulent. You can't argue the junk they are selling is authentic, as long as they are cut from the original magazine, guide, etc. they are authentic pages/cut outs. They are cut outs and they call them that; they are on paper stock and they admit that; I'm assuming they were cut out from publications issued in the years they state so there is nothing wrong with the "date of issue" statements. Got a problem with a grade? People have problems with grades from PSA, SGC, PRO, etc. so that's nothing new. I'll assume the holders are as tamper proof as the others.

People can buy what they want and pay what they want. I agree with most in that the offerings are junk and worthless but when you get down to it, what is the difference in what they are doing and what the card companies do to baseball bats and jerseys for inserts?

Jersey swatches - bat chips - picture cut from a magazine - what's the difference? How do you know all those jersey pieces and bat slivers are from authentic bats and jerseys??? Didn't Fleer or Upper deck already get caught claiming the "game used jersey" cut outs really weren't game used?

I'm with Jeff in that I don't see how they are making money considering the fees involved.

Bottom line: People have the right to "treasure" what you(and I) call "trash."

I've looked at what others have paid for cards and wondered "what were they thinking?" and I have had my bid amounts questioned - it's all about what someone will pay for an item - that is what an item, any item, is worth.

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Posted By: David

Pete, I agree with you that there is no fraud. However, I find it fascinating that the magazines avoid the subject (along with PRO) like the plague. I had thought that these magazines were supposed to be on the side of the average collector, offering practical and sincere advice to someone starting out. And if they aren't on the side of the average collector, who's side are they on?

I'm not suggesting that any of these magazines do a 60 Minutes-style expose, but they could do a resonable and sincere discussion of the topic. In my mind, their silence means they don't care if one of their readers buys a $200 newspaper shard or a trimmed PRO card.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...that are "allowable" to the total number of feedbacks. That HAS to be the answer as the worst case of negative feedback I've ever seen was 371 negatives, BUT, in that particular case, the seller had a "shooting star" icon...over 10,000 feedbacks!!!!! Whick translates out to an average of 3.7 negatives for every 100 positives. Then again, I HAVE seen sellers with 20 negatives against only 100 to 150 positives!!!!!!

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Posted By: MW

Listing worthless scrap cut from vintage magazines in an eBay category labeled "Trading Cards" is deliberately misleading. How do we know? Before "libertyforall" starting listing this worthless crap, NO ONE ANYWHERE would have classified all or part of a page in a vintage periodical as a baseball card.

The description itself is not misleading, but the fact that these items are ALLOWED to persist in an improper category (which safehabor DOES list as a violation), is implicitly deceptive to those who think they're purchasing vintage baseball cards. In fact, I have received several emails from some of the bidders in these auctions and they had no idea these weren't legitimate baseball cards until I told them and provided proof of the images in the original Spalding Baseball guides (among others).


Here are some suggested ALTERNATE categories:

Home > All Categories > Toys & Hobbies > Hobbies & Crafts > Arts & Crafts > Scrapbooking

Home > All Categories > Everything Else > Weird Stuff

Home > All Categories > Books > Magazines & Catalogs

Home > All Categories > Collectibles > Postcards & Paper > Ephemera

Home > All Categories > Collectibles > Postcards & Paper > Scrapbooks


There are MANY on eBay who cannot distinguish between a reprint and an original. So too, there are many who take only a cursory look at descriptions and assume (as any normal person would) that a GRADED item listed in a category for trading cards is indeed a trading card.

Here's a good example of how listing an item in an improper category is deceptive and fraudulent:

Suppose I purchase a 1/64 scale red diecast Lamborghini. Then, I take pictures of it so that the bidders cannot tell if it is full-sized. I list it on eBay under the category -- eBayMotors > All Categories > Sports Cars > Lamborghini -- and indicate that all items I sell are 100% original and not reproductions (in this case, I represent it as an “original collectible car”). I receive bids that are well in excess of the actual value.

Sure, you can find items listed in the Standard Catalog or Beckett Almanac that were issued in newspapers or were printed on thin, magazine type stock. But all of these items, without exception, were printed so that they could be collected. That was clearly the intent of the manufacturer -- not some fly-by-night, back-ally, do-it-yourself-in-your-basement grading service that makes up its own rules as it goes along.

Let's apply a simple, "common man" standard here. These are not baseball cards and they are listed in an improper category in order to deceive bidders.

Also, to imply that "trading card" or "collectible" is vague is to confuse and obscure this issue. While I agree that trading cards come in many different shapes and sizes and are printed on many different types of cardstocks, I don't think the "vagueness" argument is a good one here. I've seen early baseball guides and newspaper articles cut apart. It's called a scrapbook. But when a scrapbook collector brings one of these to me at a baseball card show, I don't look through it and think, "Gee, there's a baseball card of Babe Ruth...and there's another of Ty Cobb." Instead, I see it for what it is and the fact that baseball players are pictured doesn't make me think that I'm looking at baseball cards.

David is EXACTLY right here. These items need to be moved elsewhere. For them to remain in this category is embarrassing AND deceptive. Certainly, a few articles in some major hobby periodicals would be a good start to cleaning up the vintage card listings on eBay.

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Posted By: runscott

I'm not as diplomatic as you two - I would like to see Roy Huff strung up by his tiny nads after first being pasted with hot tar and then covered with paper scraps.

It's extremely frustrating that ebay puts up with his auctions being listed in the vintage card category, despite repeated reasonable objections from us, but their only requirement is that the seller brings in money - anything else is irrelevant.

disclaimer: if little Roy's body is found in a garbage pit somewhere in Hawaii as described in paragraph 1, I swear I didn't do it!

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Posted By: Paul

David is surprised by our patience, but I'm surprised by my own idiocy. Until I read his post, I had forgotten I could exclude all NASA and AAA cards from ebay's Pre-1950 category simply by moving one level deeper into ebay's categories -- to "ungraded cards." There's a 1 in 100 chance that I'll actually miss a graded card that I want, but it's probably worth it.

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Posted By: TBob

1963? Have anything to do with the receipt of the Warren Report? Was Roy Huff on the Warren Commission?
Was he on the grassy knoll in Dallas????

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Posted By: David

The point is that if someone's going to fudge the date on a photograph, he shouldn't do with on a photograph I sold him.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...a "heads up". You never know who you're emailing. You could be giving a concerned "heads up" to a friendly SHILL of the seller, or even the seller himself under another handle, in which case the well-intended warning could be CC'ed straight to Safe Harbor along with a complaint by the seller and you've committed a rule "infraction" by doing a good deed. I used to do this a number of years ago. As a matter of fact only when absolutely certain of a problem with the item, sending several Ebayers that I already "knew" by email, a note of their bidding on reprint cards made to appear old (Goudey Guy..a 33G Ruth, John from the old Fullcount Board..a T206 Cobb believe it or not, and a 33G autographed Dizzy Dean card, etc.). Sometimes we look too quickly or get distracted and all were appreciative of the quick "heads up" and acted on it by not advancing their bid against an unmet reserve or retracting, BUT, I took a BIG chance of getting suspended by doing that and CHOSE PRUDENTLY who I contacted, knowing that the info would be most likely kept confidential. What's said here is public domain but Ebay sees it as vigilante-ism if you "spam" a bidder and you ARE taking a chance of getting suspended if they so choose.

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Posted By: runscott

Let's drop the word "wire" for a moment. I think I have seen photographs that were "prepared" for use in magazines that were published prior to the 1930's (before "wire" photos). How would such prepared photos look different from actual "wire" photos?

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I will differ on one point.

Listing these pieces of paper cut out of magazines, newspapers, encyclopedias, and rolls of Charmin, under the eBay Heading "graded cards" is fraud.

They are not graded cards. They are "graded" pieces of shat paper. Those persons less knowledgeable are misled to believe they are cards. New people come into collecting all the time. Hence, fraud.

EBay will do nothing about it. I have complained about it, specifically libertyforall and mediumrarecolletables (I suspect they are the same person), but eBay ignores the complaints. They are slabbed by persons (in some cases the SAME PERSON) with no conscience toward the collectible trade.

This is just as deceitful and fraudulent as selling a trimmed/altered card in a slab, when you KNOW it is trimmed.

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Posted By: mapabr

I find this topic of interest. I agree with the majority of the points here. I don't think ebay will do anything about this (selling paper scraps) unless it made headlines like the Wagner card. It is all about the $$$. But, I will use the phrase spoken so many times in response to "How can we (the people) do anything about the baseball strike?" That phrase is, "Do not buy these worthless pieces of news\magazine paper!" I cannot believe the people that bid, even if it is only one person on this worthless stuff. And another thing, sure the seller has the right to use the "privacy" function on "the bay" but this time it's used to mask deception and not to protect the buyer. One last laugh on the topic, the adjective used to describe the grading company as "TOUGH". Unbelievable.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...

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Posted By: runscott

The seller who describes AAA as "tough" is also the owner of AAA. Roy Huff, aka "Libertyforall" (and others) even offers a price for cutting up the paper submissions - check out his web-site for more info.

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Posted By: jeff s

just wanted to congratulate Dan on his super-nice S81 Mathewson he won yesterday.

I'm jealous...but I know it is headed to a good home.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Hey Jeff-

I just noticed what you wrote here in the thread. Thanks for the congrats! I'm DYING for it to get here. You can bet I was on the phone IMMEDIATELY making payment on that baby. Now, I have all the Matty Silks, that was the one I was waiting for.

Very happy boy up here in Seattle.