A Summer Gift - and I am tired of looking - Honus Wagner

[BigJJ]

T-206 sheets likely contained eight rows, though perhaps six - four identical rows, followed by a different four identical rows. In this manner, the same player appeared vertically four times in a row (Wagner on top of Wagner on top of Wagner on top of Wagner). We do not know if Wagner’s four rows were on the top of the eight row sheet, or the bottom. Based on the above, only one of every four Wagners was located either above or below a certain other player. At present, we do not know the identity of the player who neighbored Wagner vertically. One strong indicator that the number of identical rows was four, is that there are about 3-4 times as many vertical miscuts showing the same player on the card above/below as there are showing a different certain player (the other player is always the same in each series, though there may be exceptions to this). While we do not know who neighbored one of every four Wagners vertically, we do know who may have neighbored Wagner horizontally, to the right, Mordecai Brown (portrait), and to the left, Frank Bowerman; this is known from the only surviving arguable T-206 strip that contains a Wagner, it is pictured below. Based on the above, it is my belief that no card (other than a Wagner) is likely to exist in miscut form that contains either the top or bottom of a Wagner card. However, the right or left sides of a Wagner card may be found on certain Mordecai Brown (portrait) and Frank Bowerman cards respectively.
But only on a select few Brown (portrait) or Bowerman miscuts and misprints. Wagners are found only (i) in Sweet Caporal or Piedmont brands, (ii) with a factory stamp on the back stating production at Factory 25 in Virginia, and (iii) in the initial T-206 printing, indicated by “150 Subjects” printed on the back. Therefore, only Browns (portrait) or Bowermans that have Sweet Caporal or Piedmont, Factory 25 Virginia, and “150 Subjects” backs, possibly were next to Wagner.
Few such cards survive. And, far fewer survive miscut. And they must be miscut horizontally. and be miscut toward Wagner. and be greatly miscut for printing evidence of the adjacent card to be present.

Edited, per Steve below, to add that horizontal miscuts are more rare than vertical miscuts (not evenly split), and therefore finding an adjacent partial Wagner on either a Brown (Portrait) or Bowerman is actually even more elusive.

Edited, per Steve and Brian below, to add that Factory 30 Sweet Caporal Wagners have also been found.

[steve B]

Wagners come with both factory 25 and factory 30 SC backs.

I'd be very surprised if the ratio of vertical to horizontal miscuts was 50/50. I hardly ever see a horizontal miscut.

I'd also hesitate to draw any solid conclusion about the eventual sheet layout from a proof strip. While it's possible, maybe even likely the order would be the same, it's not certain.

But it's a good start to looking for a partial Wagner. One will probably turn up eventually.

(I'd love a truly high res scan of the one recently showing a corner of another card at the bottom. If that corner isn't a Wagner it Just might be identifiable)

Steve B

[teetwoohsix]

I've often wondered if the Wagner test strip could give us a little insight into where he was placed on a sheet. I can't say for sure.

I think the best information we have to go off of is the information on T206Resource. Tim wrote a great article about it, and Chris put together a very believable possible sheet layout. The print groups play a significant role in putting together what we could assume a sheet may have looked like.

I have been doing a lot of research into the presses that the ALC were using and I'll save that for a later thread, when my research is done. I can say that I'm very confident that they were using many different types of presses; not just the 19x24.

And, take it for what it's worth- in the book "The Card" on page 79 it says that the Wagner had a red printer's line at the top of the card.

Sincerely, Clayton

[BigJJ]

Originally Posted by steve B

Wagners come with both factory 25 and factory 30 SC backs.

I'd be very surprised if the ratio of vertical to horizontal miscuts was 50/50. I hardly ever see a horizontal miscut.

Steve,

Interesting.

I have never seen a Factory 30 Wagner. Do you know of a listing, or picture of one? Will amend the above after review.

Also, very good point regarding more vertical miscuts than horizontal. I will amend the above accordingly. What percentage vertical versus horizontal would you say there is? Important, as it would make a horizontal find that much more difficult.

Thanks Steve J

[BigJJ]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

in the book "The Card" on page 79 it says that the Wagner had a red printer's line at the top of the card.

Thank you Clayton. Do you have the link to Tim's research for posting?

Also thanks for the above, will take a look. Red printers line is interesting.

[BigJJ]

By the way, someone should hire a smart college kid - or give him credit as an intern - and just put together all the tops and bottoms of players that we know of. We only need about 260 different vertical miscuts showing two players and we have the full vertical alignment of the t-206 sheet set. Then we need horizontal.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

By the way, someone should hire a smart college kid - or give him credit as an intern - and just put together all the tops and bottoms of players that we know of. We only need about 260 different vertical miscuts showing two players and we have the full vertical alignment of the t-206 sheet set. Then we need horizontal.

good luck finding 220 more... there's roughly 40 known (Chris' image hasn't been updated to show the last few discoveries):
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+names&page=16

[ctownboy]

If Mastro (or whoever owned it at the time) had just taken a picture of the sheet the PSA 8 Wagner was allegedly cut from.........

David

[terjung]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

Steve,

Interesting.

I have never seen a Factory 30 Wagner. Do you know of a listing, or picture of one? Will amend the above after review.

Also, very good point regarding more vertical miscuts than horizontal. I will amend the above accordingly. What percentage vertical versus horizontal would you say there is? Important, as it would make a horizontal find that much more difficult.

Thanks Steve J

The Wagner from Goodwin's auction last year was one example. I'll try to find a link.


ETA: It was this auction, but the photos are wrong for some reason... showing a Ruth RC instead of the Wags.
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetai...entoryid=21264


ETA: Here is a link showing front and back scans of it.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...06&postcount=4

[BigJJ]

Thank you Brian, will edit the above.

[BigJJ]

Based on the link provided above, with regard to the 2 name 1 card, compilation, both the Mordecai Brown (Portrait) and Bowerman are the bottom half of the sheet. Therefore, the Wagner likely was on the bottom half of the sheet.

THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT FIND ANY - "WAGNER, PITTSBURGH" - ON ANY OTHER CARD. IT IS BECAUSE THEY MAY NEVER HAVE EXISTED. Wagner was likely on the bottom.

Under this framework, the only possible partial vertical Wagner would be his head.

Now the question is, what card was above Honus.

Based on the good work of the above thread, we know Magee was above Brown (Portrait) and that Chance (color? either red or yellow) was above Bowerman.

If there is a horizontal miscut or misprint containing Magee or Chance, we might identify who the player was that bordered Wagner vertically.

[BigJJ]

Brown miscut showing the above Magee. Piedmont, 150 Series, Factory 25.
If the owner of the Bowerman/Chance, also would post a picture, front and back, it would be much appreciated.

[BigJJ]

The Bowerman/Chance is a Sweet Caporal 350.

Need a Sweet Caporal or Piedmont 150 vertical miscut of Bowerman.

The only Frank Chance that could have been in the 150 series was the red, not the yellow. So the only Frank Chance that could have been above Bowerman in the 150 series was Chance red.

We have evidence that Chance red was above Killian in the 150 series, from a double name 150 Piedmont card, have not seen photos of this card.

Taking this at face value, the card over Bowerman in the 150 series is either Chance red again, with their double printing Chance red in the initial 150 series. Or the card over Bowerman in the 150 series was replaced in the 350 series, likely with Chance yellow, the super card. If the card above Bowerman was replaced after the 150 series, the card over Bowerman in the 150 series, was likely a card ONLY printed in the 150 series.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

Thank you Clayton. Do you have the link to Tim's research for posting?

Also thanks for the above, will take a look. Red printers line is interesting.

Hi Jon,

Here's the link for you: http://t206resource.com/Article-T206...stique-34.html

Sincerely, Clayton

[BigJJ]

Thank you

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

Thank you

You're welcome. I hope it helped-

Sincerely, Clayton

[atx840]

There has been some discussion from those who have seen the strip in person that its been composed vs print & cut. The proofs may have been glued on in the order we see and not necessarily a true printed strip as we see with other types.

[BigJJ]

C,

Interesting.

Looks like a strip to me.

Another tell-tale sign that this is a strip, is that it appears all 5 cards were on the bottom, not top, four rows of the eight row sheet. This is highly unlikely to have occurred randomly.

There is a 50/50 chance of each player being on the bottom of a sheet. We have firmly confirmed that two players, Brown (Portrait) and Bowerman were on the bottom of the sheet - there was a 25% chance of this being the case randomly. Also, there is the fact that, despite tremendous searching over the years by collectors, for a "WAGNER, PITTSBURGH" on another card, none have been found. This is likely because none existed, though scarcity of the card as an arguable rationale is reasonable. but I think the likelihood is, it is because none existed, because the Wagner cards were located on the bottom of the sheet. The fact that the other two cards on the strip - Kling and Cy Young (Portrait) - that their names also have not been found on any other card also lends support to all 5 cards being on the bottom half of the sheet. The odds of 5 cards randomly being found on the bottom of a sheet is about 3%.

The odds are incredibly high that the five cards are likely found on the bottom half of the sheet because this strip is an accurate representation of their placement on the sheet next to one another on the bottom half.

[BigJJ]

C, I cannot believe all the great work you did putting together the verticals. Very exciting. I think we should try to put together the 150 series sheets, using only the Sweet Caporal and Piedmont 150 series verticals that have been found, and incorporating the horizontal 150s, and test strip 150s. For the 150 series, only talking about 75 vertical sets of 2 cards. horizontal will be more challenging. But hopefully there will be overlap help. I would propose 4 top rows and 4 bottom, but I understand others have proposed 3 top rows and 3 bottom, and think both 8 and 6 row arguments are reasonable. though I would lean toward 4 each because of the great numbers of same card verticals versus dual player verticals. J

[BigJJ]

And then someone's gotta print them.

To start (and maybe to end for the time being), we might compile a proposed 34-different-card sheet (136 cards) - a first T-206 sheet - containing the Wagner, Magie error, put Plank in, do the best we can.

[BigJJ]

Updated chart, with regard to the card above Bowerman.

[BigJJ]

According to T-206 Resource, the cards that were issued only as part of the 150 series, and may have been above Bowerman, if not Chance (Red), are:

Ames, Red (Hands At Chest)
Brown, George (Chicago)
Brown, Mordecai (Cubs On Shirt)
Burch, Al (Batting)
Donlin, Mike (Fielding)
Doyle, Larry (Throwing)
Evers, Johnny (Cubs On Shirt - Blue Sky)
Pattee, Harry
Pelty, Barney (Horizontal)
Powers, Mike
Reulbach, Ed (Glove Showing)

(Wagner and Magie error as well were 150 series only, but have been accounted for here)

[BigJJ]

List of 150 series cards only - added above.

[steve B]

Schulte should really be on that list, there's only one copy with a 350 back. I'm thinking that's actually technically a wrongback, in that it was never intended to come with 350 but a sheet or two got used and released somehow.

Steve B

[BigJJ]

Thanks Steve