JSA Story on Autographalert.com

[tinkereversandme]

1) To say that there were no need for third party authenticators before third party authenticators doesn't necessaily understand that it is a different collecting world with more emphasis on purchasing things through scans and photos, instead of a show or a periodical and there has been a massive increase in fraud.

2) I don't collect because of the fraud and I know a number of people who don't either. Six former collectors. I always wanted a Babe Ruth ball, but since there are so few people I trust, I choose to invest/spend those moneys in other collecting avenues. You say "these guys are good", but those guys are hardly known to the average collector and if PSA/DNA, Jimmy Spece go down, there will be uncertainty with everything they have ever authenticated and nobody will know what is actually good or bad as I find it almost impossible to believe that even a small percentage of the ones offered monthly are good as while the Babe signed, did he sign that much? Not to mention I have heard some horror stories about even the better sellers and wasn't Halper one of the better people in the hobby? So if the two bigger firms go down, everyone will assume that what they have is authentic (which they do anyways even the Morales pundits) and we will be far worse off as a hobby to not have faith in at least someone.

3) I have never purchased an item at fixed rate (eBay) because nothing is rare anymore (it seems) and I will always see it later on or get it cheaper in an auction. Sad to think that way but there all the catalogs I get agree with my assessment of the current state of collecting.

Regards,

Larry

[oriolesbb6]

Originally Posted by Leon

So I am biased but.....the fact of the matter is that collectors aren't buying fixed price cards in today's somewhat down market. They are waiting for auctions to see if they can either steal them, or at most, pay what the market will bear. I feel that most auctions today, except ebay, are fairly clean of shilling. And I doubt most auction houses make 30%. Maybe you should understand what you are talking about a little more before you speak? My small auction takes in 12.5% of a sale (total). That is, many times, less than ebay. Personally, I like auctions, participate in dozens of them and hope they continue and prosper. Otherwise, the cards/memorabilia we really want might not get sold in other venues. I have a solution for you though. If you don't like auctions don't bid in them. And good luck finding those tough items at fixed prices which you feel are a good deal. I too could go on and on . regards

I agree Leon, as a small time Estate auction worker in NJ we pull in about 12-14 % of the hammer but we still have to hump alot of heavy stuff and not in good way LOL

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by tinkereversandme

1) To say that there were no need for third party authenticators before third party authenticators doesn't necessaily understand that it is a different collecting world with more emphasis on purchasing things through scans and photos, instead of a show or a periodical and there has been a massive increase in fraud.

2) I don't collect because of the fraud and I know a number of people who don't either. Six former collectors. I always wanted a Babe Ruth ball, but since there are so few people I trust, I choose to invest/spend those moneys in other collecting avenues. You say "these guys are good", but those guys are hardly known to the average collector and if PSA/DNA, Jimmy Spece go down, there will be uncertainty with everything they have ever authenticated and nobody will know what is actually good or bad as I find it almost impossible to believe that even a small percentage of the ones offered monthly are good as while the Babe signed, did he sign that much? Not to mention I have heard some horror stories about even the better sellers and wasn't Halper one of the better people in the hobby? So if the two bigger firms go down, everyone will assume that what they have is authentic (which they do anyways even the Morales pundits) and we will be far worse off as a hobby to not have faith in at least someone.

3) I have never purchased an item at fixed rate (eBay) because nothing is rare anymore (it seems) and I will always see it later on or get it cheaper in an auction. Sad to think that way but there all the catalogs I get agree with my assessment of the current state of collecting.

Regards,

Larry

This is like saying "I'll never go in the water again if the maker of my water wings fails."

Learn to swim.

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by tinkereversandme

I have never purchased an item at fixed rate (eBay) because nothing is rare anymore (it seems) and I will always see it later on or get it cheaper in an auction. Sad to think that way but there all the catalogs I get agree with my assessment of the current state of collecting.

Regards,

Larry

Larry, with all due respect, there is still a lot of rare items out there to be had. Just a few moments ago, I was looking at a respected dealer's fixed price listings on eBay. He had upwards of several hundred items that could be considered rare if not one-of-a-kind. Over the years, I have taken advantage of numerous fixed price/Buy-It-Now items on eBay b/c of rarity.

I am not one to show off pieces in my collection, but I can think of 5 things off of the top of my head that I purchased on eBay that I know would sell for way more in several auctions.

As someone who both buys and sells on eBay and buys from/consigns with several auctionhouses, I can speak from experience when I say this: Sure, there are items that can be had cheaper at auction, but in a lot of cases, there are way more "steals" on eBay. Having the time and patience to search eBay really pays off.

[Ringking]

This was done with PSA a while back also, and that can be seen on behindthegavel.com

NOW, psa uses their dalb of "DNA" to put on a item that they fail, so if they fail a item and it's sent back, it will have the stuff on the item, so that's why you see this going on with JSA a lot as he does not put anything on a item if he fails it.

I know that people have called him for quotes on items and the first thing they ask is "where did it come from" if you say you have a letter from CLM, they will tell you, it's fake, get a refund if it's not too late.

They don't learn at all and keep doing stuff like this.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Ringking

This was done with PSA a while back also, and that can be seen on behindthegavel.com

NOW, psa uses their dalb of "DNA" to put on a item that they fail, so if they fail a item and it's sent back, it will have the stuff on the item, so that's why you see this going on with JSA a lot as he does not put anything on a item if he fails it.

I know that people have called him for quotes on items and the first thing they ask is "where did it come from" if you say you have a letter from CLM, they will tell you, it's fake, get a refund if it's not too late.

They don't learn at all and keep doing stuff like this.

If your item has a CLM letter then it IS fake...unless of course you sent him a legit item just so you could try and trick JSA or PSA/DNA...but people don't send legit items to Christopher Morales...they send their legit items to legit authenticators. They send fake items to Morales so they can sell it to uneducated collectors.

[sports-rings]

Dan I agree with what you are saying, but shouldn't JSA and PSA be more open minded?

I mean, it is possible someone out there finds an autograph and sends it to Morales and then later on realizes he is unworthy and his COA is worthless.

I realize this would be a very rare situation but if someone is paying JSA and PSA good money they deserve an unbiased analysis of their item.

Not sure if you saw the story about the judge that threw out the testimony of Morales in a lawsuit. I doubt the folks at JSA or PSA would have been able to do much better in proving to the judge, that they are qualified to render opinions on autographs. At least JSA and PSA try to do the right work, and do the right certification, but when it comes down to it, they may not have the credentials or scientific education of a real hand writting expert.

[Ringking]

Originally Posted by sports-rings

Dan I agree with what you are saying, but shouldn't JSA and PSA be more open minded?

I mean, it is possible someone out there finds an autograph and sends it to Morales and then later on realizes he is unworthy and his COA is worthless.

I realize this would be a very rare situation but if someone is paying JSA and PSA good money they deserve an unbiased analysis of their item.

Not sure if you saw the story about the judge that threw out the testimony of Morales in a lawsuit. I doubt the folks at JSA or PSA would have been able to do much better in proving to the judge, that they are qualified to render opinions on autographs. At least JSA and PSA try to do the right work, and do the right certification, but when it comes down to it, they may not have the credentials or scientific education of a real hand writting expert.

PSA has had their letters thrown out of court too, fighttoys.com took them to court, and PSA lost. Their opinion means NOTHING to a court of law.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Ringking

PSA has had their letters thrown out of court too, fighttoys.com took them to court, and PSA lost. Their opinion means NOTHING to a court of law.

RingKing- You need to read the rules AND put your full name in your posts, per the rules. Same rules for everyone. If you don't understand something please PM me, email me or post it here, and I/we will explain. Nothing personal...just the rules. Thanks for your compliance.

[sports-rings]

Hi Cori,

it's been a long time since we spoke! Glad you are here - I think I was the only ring-collecter here before you showed up!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sports-rings

Hi Cori,

it's been a long time since we spoke! Glad you are here - I think I was the only ring-collecter here before you showed up!

Sports-rings- don't you think you should put your name out here too?

[danc]

This is like saying "I'll never go in the water again if the maker of my water wings fails."

Learn to swim.

What kind of mumbo-jumbo is that?

We get it, you are all knowing sage, blah, blah, speak in riddles, blah, blah, all authenticators are bad, blah...

I don't collect because of all of the deceit either...for the record, and I can swim. I just don't enjoy the hobby anymore.

After reading the TTA thread and his comments (about CCSA), educate your fellow Ring guy.

DanC

[David Atkatz]

Wow! Responding to a month-old post! Ya just wake up?
It's only a riddle to an extremely tiny mind.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Wow! Responding to a month-old post! Ya just wake up?
It's only a riddle to an extremely tiny mind.

To be fair, this thread was dredged up earlier today by a new member.

[danc]

typical and expected response

DanC

[sports-rings]

Leon,

I thought the policy of placing one's name was optional unless your post consisted of controversial or critical comments?

Anyway, as you requested, I added my name.

[Mr. Zipper]

Hi

I am really late to this conversation, but wanted to add a few thoughts that haven't been covered elsewhere.

* In my view, an authenticator needs to look at the whole picture, and a big part of the picture is provenance. If an item appears to have originated from a known source of forgeries -- no matter how "good" the autograph looks -- the provenance should weigh heavily on the findings. If The Marino family was submitting items, would anyone want PSA or JSA ignoring that fact when evaluating?

Also, some items JSA reviewed had hologram stickers peeled off. Is it possible they took note of that fact and that also weighed on the evaluation? Why would an authentic item be altered?

I think JSA probably should have returned a "no decision" rather than a rejection. But, autographs are not like people. I'd rather see a good autograph condemned than let 10 fakes walk free.

JSA and PSA are far from perfect, but they are still right probably 90% - 95% of the time. Compare that to the track record of their critics.


* Regarding the comments that authenticators are not necessary and all collectors have to do is educate themselves...

This viewpoint is somewhat ego-centric and ignores the eality of the modern market.

Not all of us have been collecting for 40 years. We all haven't had the opportunity or access to amass a collection of in-person signatures to study.

What if my wife wants to buy me a signed photo for my birthday? Should she study for years prior to making the purchase?

In a perfect world we wouldn't need PSA, JSA or Richard Simon... but the world is far from perfect. These services are popular because they are obviously serving a need.

Steve Zarelli

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

What if my wife wants to buy me a signed photo for my birthday? Should she study for years prior to making the purchase?

No. She should buy from a reputable dealer, one who has "studied for years," and who fully guarantees his wares.

No third party required.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

JSA and PSA are far from perfect, but they are still right probably 90% - 95% of the time. Compare that to the track record of their critics.

Upon what data do you base the above? How many PSA/JSA authenticated items were looked at? What method was used to determine whether their determination was correct?

Or did you just make it up?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Upon what data do you base the above? How many PSA/JSA authenticated items were looked at? What method was used to determine whether their determination was correct?

Or did you just make it up?

You strike me as someone who always needs to get the last word and picks everything apart, so I'll just amend my comment to:

JSA and PSA are far from perfect, but they are still right the vast majority of the time. Compare that to the track record of their critics.

And I'll leave it at that.

Steve Zarelli

[prewarsports]

It all boils down to this guys.......

The trusted third parties are right the majority of the time, BUT so are trusted dealers and you dont have to pay for a letter from them and they will stand behind the item whereas the authenticators will not stand behind their opinion.

Rhys Yeakley

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

You strike me as someone who always needs to get the last word and picks everything apart, so I'll just amend my comment to:

JSA and PSA are far from perfect, but they are still right the vast majority of the time. Compare that to the track record of their critics.

And I'll leave it at that.

Steve Zarelli

It has nothing at all to do with the last word, and you can roll your eyes as much as you want. Your quantitative assessment given previously, and your qualitative assessment given above are nothing but opinions, pulled out of thin air. They are based on nothing substantial.

JSA and PSA get it right more often than they get it wrong. (I can't prove it, but I think all here will agree.) But the same can be said for anyone who's collected for a few years. The crucial thing, though, as Rhys pointed out, is that the third parties do not stand behind their opinions in any way.

[murphusa]

and they also get paid for their opinion

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

It all boils down to this guys.......

The trusted third parties are right the majority of the time, BUT so are trusted dealers and you dont have to pay for a letter from them and they will stand behind the item whereas the authenticators will not stand behind their opinion.

Rhys Yeakley

I don't disagree with this and I don't recall anyone else in the thread doing so either. If there is something I'm looking for, the trusted dealers are where I look first.

That said, they always don't have what I'm looking for, so the next stop is eBay or a dealer I may not be as familiar with. This is where TPAs add value in my opinion.

In the past I've been fairly critical of TPAs, even writing an award-winning article in the Pen & Quill several years ago that was highly critical of TPAs.

That said, generally they provide a beneficial service and I don't understand the level of hostility toward them.

[barrysloate]

Could you provide a link for your article on TPA?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Could you provide a link for your article on TPA?

P&Q is not online, but I'll see if I can dig up a copy and post scans.

[barrysloate]

Thanks...Mr. Zipper Would like to read it.

[tinkereversandme]

Zipper makes a good point. If my wife wants to get me a Derek Jeter autograph for Christmas she is lost as who are the trusted dealers? She won't know.

That's why forensics thrive. Their qualificiations prove that they should know something and when you have someone making a purchase, mostly they care about the LOA that proves the item is authentic. People who educate themselves know what to look for, but the casual gift giver is lost.

If JSA or PSA/DNA get it right 90-95%, I'll eat my hat. And yes, third party authenticators should be responsible for their mistakes if proven that they were incorrect.

Regards,

Larry

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't disagree with this and I don't recall anyone else in the thread doing so either. If there is something I'm looking for, the trusted dealers are where I look first.

That said, they always don't have what I'm looking for, so the next stop is eBay or a dealer I may not be as familiar with. This is where TPAs add value in my opinion.

In the past I've been fairly critical of TPAs, even writing an award-winning article in the Pen & Quill several years ago that was highly critical of TPAs.

That said, generally they provide a beneficial service and I don't understand the level of hostility toward them.

Be patient if you cannot get what you want from the good dealers.
There are enough good dealers out there and a few good trusted auction houses and if you stick with them you should be in good shape. And the good dealers can usually turn up most items if you give them enough time.
I think most of us know who the good dealers really are,,, stay with them and you can build a terrific collection.

[Orioles1954]

I guess my difficulty lies with the term "opinion". If TPG is merely an opinion that is subject to change, then these companies should issue an LOO (Letter of Opinion) rather than the signed, sealed and delivered LOA (Letter of Authenticity). The word "Authenticity" means the issuer should stand behind their decision and there is very little room for error.

James

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

The crucial thing, though, as Rhys pointed out, is that the third parties do not stand behind their opinions in any way.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

No. She should buy from a reputable dealer, one who has "studied for years," and who fully guarantees his wares.

No third party required.

This is not always true. I had a good experience where PSA made good on a 9 year old mistake to the tune of $900.00.

And the piece in question was purchased (already authenticated by PSA) from a so-called reputable dealer, who despite his written guaranty refused to offer a refund. Had Joe Orlando not stepped in I would not have been made whole.

[David Atkatz]

Well, it was very nice of him to do that. But PSA's small print says they are in no way legally required to do so. When that small print is removed, and Mr Orlando puts into writing that he will guarantee PSA's opinion for every customer, I'll change my tune.

[Big Dave]

Read the story earlier and it is amazing. Sure does cast JSA in a very poor light.

[Scott Garner]

Interesting serve and volley in this thread guys....
Thanks!

[Mr. Zipper]

One can't help but wonder about the motives of the people running the referenced web site. It certainly appears that they wish to destroy and/or completely delegitimize PSA and JSA. And now it appears the new Autograph Quarterly magazine is backed by the same concerns and will be preaching a parallel message.

While they are admittedly far from perfect, does anyone really think the hobby would be better off without TPAs entirely?

Wouldn't constructive dialog and criticism be a better approach than an attack web site run by [supposedly] anonymous parties?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

While they are admittedly far from perfect, does anyone really think the hobby would be better off without TPAs entirely?

I do!

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I do!

How did I know you would say that?!?!?

[Redsoxrule]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

One can't help but wonder about the motives of the people running the referenced web site. It certainly appears that they wish to destroy and/or completely delegitimize PSA and JSA. And now it appears the new Autograph Quarterly magazine is backed by the same concerns and will be preaching a parallel message.

While they are admittedly far from perfect, does anyone really think the hobby would be better off without TPAs entirely?

Wouldn't constructive dialog and criticism be a better approach than an attack web site run by [supposedly] anonymous parties?

Right you are zipper
Kevin Martin's selling venue : http://www.russoandsteele.com/memorabilia.html worth a close look

Is "Sharpie" Steve Koschal?

IS "Paul Sturgis" Todd Mueller ?

Travis Roste is one of the main posters along with sharpie and sturgis

[Piedmont Sport]

Look close at what everyone flip flops on - JSA and PSA have become such a Huge presence - many employees and they show up at lots of locations - Card shows - Home visits - Resturants for 2500.00 - they will show up. Now we come to the educated collector/authenicater - We all want special attention to our items that we sell or collect - we don't want the factory feel that we get at JSA and PSA - I would like to recommand 2 people i recently started using - both pick up the phone - both are masters in there field and give you the sense of security we all look for. Kevin Keating and Richard Simon - at a recent convention i showed a 39 Giants Team signed ball to Kevin and he explained the Greenburg auto being early and a little different - JSA did not like it - gave him the ball and i received the ball and cert back within a few days. ---------------- I called Richard Simon sent him clear scans of a few items and he was back to me within 24 hours - i'm now sending him the items for final review - Class Act -
It's always best to know what your looking at - but many times i look for a second set of eyes - hard to trust anyone after what were all reading.

[mr2686]

I agree, you can't go wrong with Kevin or Richard.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Redsoxrule

Right you are zipper
opinon of someone in the know:
Owner of the site and the Magazine= Kevin Martin aka "s. Eugene Xidas" a man with a notorious past: http://www.russoandsteele.com/memorabilia.html worth a close look

"Sharpie" and perhaps 2 or three other names like "i Love Autographs"= Steve Koschal. Just google him to see what a wonderful guy he is

"Paul Sturgis" and a few other names = Todd Mueller who is supposed to have been kicked off ebay twice according to some sources

others like perhaps "without name" are Christopher Morales ofr J. Gladstone of ARA

Travis Roste, formally a good guy and somewhat respected is now in with that crowd and a Coaches Corner fan?


so it is half a dozen guys beating up respected dealers and authenticators,because they themselves are not so respected

wow how the mighty have fallen

Redsoxrule,
Read the rules please. You are more than welcome to say this but your name has to be in your post. You can either edit out your comments or put your name by them. Certainly nothing personal and same rules are for everyone. Thanks for your cooperation. PM me if there is anything you don't understand or want to talk about off line. regards

[HexsHeroes]

.


. . . just curious as to what a Greenberg (Hank ?) signature is doing on a 1939 Giants (N.Y. ?) team signed ball ?

Any ideas ?


Thanks.

[Piedmont Sport]

My mistake - should be 39 Tigers - also had a 39 giants - check the ball and cert on my ebay user name --- frankjprisco