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#101
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: James Feagin
Last year I bought a raw E96 Connie Mack autographed card on ebay. I sent it to every major authenticator and it came back no good. I didn't want a "fake" in my collection so I ended up selling it. An eventual owner sent it in to GAI and imagine how I felt to see it residing in a GAI Authentic holder on this months recent pickups on this board, after it got rejected once from them? Something like being kicked in stomach. Grading is not an exact science and we can't expect perfection from a subjective service. With that said, this experience makes me wonder who exactly is looking at my cards and what qualifies them to do that? Are they 20 year hobby professionals with a keen eye, or are they 20 year old co-eds who smack gum and took a crash course? Do they pour over each card, or give it a quick glance because they have deadlines or quotas to meet? |
#102
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: jay behrens
when it comes to autographs, the only autograph you can be sure is real is the one that you get in person. Everything else is a crap shoot and way too easy to fake. I used to do a very good Ruth that could fool all the but the best experts. The biggest tip off to my fakes was that they were done in ballpoint pen which didn't come into common use until after his death. |
#103
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I agree with Jay. I lump autographs in with game used equipment. Why bother? |
#104
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Jim Crandell
No--I am not saying that Derrick and Kevin are head and shoulders above Dave and Mike....just that the concept of a high-end grading service is a good one. |
#105
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: James Feagin
Why bother? Why bother collecting players like Hal Chase? It's a personal interest and I think doing both is fine. The point is shouldn't grading companies keep the histories of certain cards on file so when a card is submitted they can track it if it is re-subbed? Kind of like a Carfax for cards? Might be difficult on a common card, but not so much on a rarity or autograph. The process of "re-subbing until I get the grade I want" really compromises the system. |
#106
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
So now we're talking about high end premium grading for some premium fee. Let's see, the rationale is those guys try harder and/or profess to know what they're doing. So if that's the case, why are the other guys (PSA, SGC, GAI) still around? I thought the rationale behind their existence was that they were qualifed to do what they do, so much so in fact that people are willing to plunk down zillions of dollars on cards given their blessing. Sort of reminds me of the razor market. After razor manufacturers determined there was no where to go with single-blade razors, they introduced the double-bladed ones. Now I think they're up to quatro-bladed razors. In fact, don't some of these quatro-bladed razors even have batteries stuck in there somewhere? I'm still trying to figure out what they do. And after all these "improvements", if you do the Joe Namath cheek test, like you can really tell the difference between a single-blade shave and a quatro-bladed battery-enhanced shave? So looking ahead a few years, after we have this premium grading service and after a few thousand threads bemoaning what they've been missing, I guess we'll then have the super-duper premium grading service, then the super super-duper premium grading service. Then, once we have all these, we'll have to figure out how to value the cards. I propose that we add a star for each premium level of grading. We'll then have the standard, say, NrMt 7, then the premium 7*, the super-duper premium 7** and the super super-duper 7***. Next we'll have to figure out what equates to what. Is a 6** equal to a plain 7? Boy will it be a lot of fun to take a look at the price guides of the future under this scenario. They will weigh around 25 pounds, and the qualifications to publish one of those things will be a double doctorate in mathematics and statistics with perhaps a masters in price theory thown in for good measure. |
#107
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Jim Crandell
There is a premium service for almost every major commercial product I can think of--no reason one will not emerge over time for grading sports cards. |
#108
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: sagard
There is nothing preventing a business of a high end authentication. For it to be successful they would have to gain collectors trust implicitly. The new flip could have the old companies serial number and previous grade in addition to it's own. |
#109
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Joe Pelaez
Are you saying that the seas surrounding Grader World, are not smooth as glass??? |
#110
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
I see Corey's point, that even for a $10 fee the graders still have an obligation to get it right. But if a new grading service was formed headed by people who were respected above and beyond everyone else, and the perception was they were more skilled than everyone else, and as a result they charged more money for their services, I think they would find their niche and build a significant market share. |
#111
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: boxingcardman
"smoke detectors without batteries" |
#112
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Sgard, the old company's cert number would never be allowed on the new company's flip unless there was some sort of joint venture between them or payment arranged. Hard to believe PSA would ever permit such a thing which would imply that it's own crack Samsonite gorilla grading team is suspect. |
#113
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: leon
It all goes back to who you trust grading your cards. Corey and I have spoken about a service offering "authentic" without a grade and with it not being altered and no stigma attached to the "A"..That would be great..All I really want to know is that my card is not altered. Period. I can tell how pretty it is myself....Every one else can have their super duper grading service tell them their card is a "10-gold-flying-cross-star-best-in-the-world-and-only-worthy-of-the-finest-collection" grade ......from the 10 Gold Star grading company.....I will settle for collecting cards with my friends... |
#114
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
Leon- I've been saying the same thing too, that many collectors just want to know they have an original card that hasn't been tampered with, and to heck with the grade. You and I and all the other experienced collectors can grade them ourselves. |
#115
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Fred C
There is no industry standard therefore there are inconsistencies. What are the guarantees? Do these guarantees really mean that the everyday collector is protected by the grading service? The fiasco regarding a certain "rare" T206, a certain grading company, a certain "big" dealer and a certain "big" collector didn't really inspire much. If you think about it the grading company wouldn't have done much if it were Joe Blow dealer or collector. |
#116
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimB
It seems to me that the best suggestion so far is to create sort of independent review board that runs seminars on new techniques in tampering and how to identify them and certifies graders from all major grading companies. Maybe once a year they would have to take a weekend class and test to get re-certified as an industry grader for the next year. Then PSA or SGC or whoever can advertise that they have 100% certified graders. Perhaps their test scores could even be graded so that they could claim 90% "A" grader and 10% "B" graders or something like that. |
#117
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
Does anybody know what training procedure a newly hired grader goes through? I don't think you just show up your first day and start grading cards. There is some learning curve and training, but I wonder how thorough it is. |
#118
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: MikeU
The funny thing is, this topic is brought up every few months. The fact is, you get this premium service for a cheap price from SGC. If they F-Up, they will "guarantee" their mistake. This whole concept of paying a premium or having a third part review is for PSA only, as you basically have to take them to court for them to correct their mistakes. |
#119
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Mike, |
#120
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Kevin Sacuier
It could really be as simple as adding a small doctor resistant sticker on the slab.. a kind of "seal of approval." |
#121
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: PC
You guys are missing the obvious -- this has been done before and didn't work. |
#122
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Joe Pelaez
I call it: |
#123
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Bruce Babcock
I agree with JimB. "I sense a 200+ post thread coming on." |
#124
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
Bruce- your one act play shows why many of the oldtimers have left the hobby. I think it has become very stressful for many people to navigate through all of today's muck and mire. |
#125
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Wouldn't it be funny if guys like Joe Pelaez was given 10 cards in front of him and asked to pick out the 5 that had been microtrimmed/reworked and the five that were legit got more wrong than right--NOW THAT WOULD BE REALLY FUNNY. |
#126
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Bruce, |
#127
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
"I feel that if all these problems continue unchecked, the whole system may eventually collapse". - B. Sloate, 2007 |
#128
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
If the system is fallible, and those who collect registry sets are not getting what they pay for, keep in mind there are many collectors who might pay $1000 for a PSA 7, $5000 for a PSA 8, and $40,000 for the same card in PSA 9. Given the progression of price increases, there is tremendous pressure on the grading services to get it absolutely right. At that price point, if it's not done to near perfection, then the whole system is ludicrous. |
#129
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Alan
Other hobbies like photography, computers, gardening, sports, etc,... don't have all the cost/finacial/money issues because the focus is more on techniques/skill/fun rather than money, competition, auctions & posessions. |
#130
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: boxingcardman
"The funniest thing I think is the people who do not believe in grading think they have more expertise in picking out altered cards." |
#131
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: peter chao
It's all about money. If a new grading service started that did a better job than the existing companies, would you be willing to pay more for it? Would you pay 50% more? |
#132
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Too vague Peter. |
#133
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: jay behrens
anyone remember the company that provided a CD-ROM with 100x pics of the corners of the card and other details of the grading? Even at 100x, NM corner looked horrible They were definitely ahead of their time. |
#134
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimCrandell
BoxingCardMan, |
#135
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: leon
Jim C- it's not bragging when you can back it up. You probably know the most about PSA plastic so I would call you if I ever wanted to know how to look at PSA slabs...not cards...but slabs...For some reason I don't think I can ever remember you talking about the cards.....or the players or the camaraderie in the hobby. You do put your names by your posts, and slabbing is a relevent topic so I would never say not to give your opinion...and I am truly not trying to be mean here I am just stating a few thoughts.....Also this is even a personal invite to our Dinner....Please come to it if you can make it...but please rsvp too... |
#136
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
When they call Leon or Adam, and SGC has called me too, they are asking for relevant information about a rare set. They are not calling to ask how a card should be graded. |
#137
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: leon
Not quite. The last time I spoke to one of them it was about how an edge of a certain series should look....That particular series is different than most in that it was connected to one or more cards as *distributed....regards |
#138
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
That's interesting. They've called me for historical information, but never for grading. That's kind of funny. It's like ordering a steak in a restaurant and the chef comes out and asks you "how do you cook steak?" |
#139
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Joe Pelaez
That was one funny schtick. |
#140
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: jeff
Jeff- please say what you want to but put your full name by it (moderator dude) |
#141
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Bruce Babcock
In the interest of increasing the post count . . . |
#142
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Joe Pelaez
JimCrandell: |
#143
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: barrysloate
Bruce, I don't even remember that card, but looking at the picture, it looks like a factory miscut. |
#144
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Rick McQuillan
Very interesting thread. It makes me appreciate my $25 T206 and T205 commons. I don't have to worry about all of this crap. |
#145
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Little Joey Boy, |
#146
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: boxingcardman
"I am truly in awe of you--You gotta love it when people get on here and brag about themselves--and their "so-called" expertise and the great expertise that all these other non-graded cartd buyers have-ha ha." |
#147
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: Rob Dewolf
Jim C., |
#148
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Dear Mr. Boxing Egomaniac, |
#149
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Rob, |
#150
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Is the Grading System Broken?
Posted By: T206Collector
[[To correct two misstatements by T206(among many), |
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