NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-18-2016, 04:58 AM
BicycleSpokes's Avatar
BicycleSpokes BicycleSpokes is offline
D@v!d R. Fuhrm@n
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Denmark (don't worry, I have a USA mailing address!)
Posts: 264
Default Should MLB replace Cy Young awards with the "C. Mathewson" and "W. Johnson" awards?

Hi all,

I just finished reading "Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train" by Henry W. Thomas (his grandson, who I understand is a Net54 member). It is a magnificent book, and I highly recommend it. Having grown up in Idaho, I especially enjoyed reading Chapter 2 "The Weiser Wonder" detailing his time in the Idaho Southern Idaho League! (As a kid I can fondly remember playing in baseball tournaments at Walter Johnson Field in Weiser, ID.)

As I was finishing the book, the idea occurred to me (probably not the first to have it): Should MLB not replace the NL and AL Cy Young Awards, respectively, with the Christy Mathewson (NL) and Walter Johnson (AL) Awards? (Could be colloquially referred to by their nicknames e.g. the "Matty" and the "Barney").

The great Cy Young has been duly honored as the namesake of the best pitcher awards since 1956. However, dating back even to the first HOF vote to the present day, it seems to be general (though obviously not universal) consensus that Mathewson and Johnson were historically the more dominant pitchers in their respective leagues.

I am sure it won't happen, but would be curious to hear other thoughts on the idea!

(Feel free to also post your favorite Mattys, Barneys, and Youngs).
__________________
T206: 130/518
T206 HZ: 6/6
T206 SLers: 48/48
T206 back run: 21/38

Last edited by BicycleSpokes; 07-18-2016 at 05:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-18-2016, 06:01 AM
bnorth's Avatar
bnorth bnorth is online now
Ben North
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 10,226
Default

I really hope they don't do that. I am probably in the minority but I hated the batting titles getting Gwynn's and Carew's name added to the award.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-18-2016, 06:09 AM
Jason's Avatar
Jason Jason is online now
Jason Wells
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,755
Default

Im all about the traditions in Baseball and would like to keep as many of them as possible. Cy Young does hold the record for most wins career so I think its not so bad having the award in his honor.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-18-2016, 06:46 AM
BicycleSpokes's Avatar
BicycleSpokes BicycleSpokes is offline
D@v!d R. Fuhrm@n
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Denmark (don't worry, I have a USA mailing address!)
Posts: 264
Default

I agree it is "not so bad" to honor Young. I simply feel a change would be especially timely now as voters no longer tend to blindly vote for the pitcher with the most wins. Also, would be cool to honor two greats with strong NL/AL associations, rather than just one!

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk
__________________
T206: 130/518
T206 HZ: 6/6
T206 SLers: 48/48
T206 back run: 21/38

Last edited by BicycleSpokes; 07-18-2016 at 06:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-18-2016, 06:59 AM
KCRfan1 KCRfan1 is offline
Lou Simcoe
L0u Sim.coe
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Olathe KS
Posts: 1,716
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
I really hope they don't do that. I am probably in the minority but I hated the batting titles getting Gwynn's and Carew's name added to the award.
I'm right with your line of thought.

Baseball seems to be trying to make " things " current, and the significance of awards is diluted down imo.

Gwynn and Carew were fine players, but not deserving of their names to an award.
__________________
My new found obsession the t206!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:06 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 35,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCRfan1 View Post
I'm right with your line of thought.

Baseball seems to be trying to make " things " current, and the significance of awards is diluted down imo.

Gwynn and Carew were fine players, but not deserving of their names to an award.
I agree. And they should have changed the batting title to the "Ty Cobb Award", if anything.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 07-18-2016 at 07:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:11 AM
Rookiemonster's Avatar
Rookiemonster Rookiemonster is offline
Dustin
Dustin Mar.ino
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Nj
Posts: 1,451
Default

They can change it but maybe with more modern players like the Koufax , ,Gibson . I don't see why we have to have such a dated reference.
__________________
Just a collector that likes to talk and read about the Hobby. 🤓👍🏼
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:13 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 35,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookiemonster View Post
They can change it but maybe with more modern players like the Koufax , ,Gibson . I don't see why we have to have such a dated reference.
Because they (Cobb and Young) had the best numbers? (Highest avg and most wins)

Sounds like a good reason to me.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 07-18-2016 at 07:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:20 AM
BicycleSpokes's Avatar
BicycleSpokes BicycleSpokes is offline
D@v!d R. Fuhrm@n
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Denmark (don't worry, I have a USA mailing address!)
Posts: 264
Default

With baseball's rich history, i fully agree with you all that it is rather rediculous for MLB to attach modern player names to its awards. Cobb is obviously more worthy. Along the lines of my original post, then, how about e.g. Cobb (AL) and Hornsby (NL) awards for the batting titles?!

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk
__________________
T206: 130/518
T206 HZ: 6/6
T206 SLers: 48/48
T206 back run: 21/38

Last edited by BicycleSpokes; 07-18-2016 at 07:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:23 AM
Bpm0014's Avatar
Bpm0014 Bpm0014 is offline
Brendan Mullen
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,903
Default

No. Keep them as-is. Gwynn and Carew awards = horrible idea.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:15 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,229
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookiemonster View Post
They can change it but maybe with more modern players like the Koufax , ,Gibson . I don't see why we have to have such a dated reference.
Because without the history/tradition the whole thing devolves into a situation like modern cards. I really can't see naming the awards after whoever led in that stat last year. Or more like new cards, last month or week or maybe named after some hyped minor leaguer who's expected to be special.

There's too much stuff where many younger people don't appreciate it because they're entirely unaware of anything that came earlier. There's also a boatload of stuff that's the "new" thing even if it's been around since the 1800's (Or 1970's, or whenever it was actually invented. )


Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:27 AM
Mark17's Avatar
Mark17 Mark17 is offline
M@rk S@tterstr0m
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,060
Default

The less tradition MLB chooses to throw away, the better.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-18-2016, 10:14 AM
HOF Auto Rookies's Avatar
HOF Auto Rookies HOF Auto Rookies is offline
Brent Niederman
Bre.nt Nieder.m@n
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,548
Default

I say no. The CY award has a very special meaning to the game.


HoFAutoRookies.com
__________________
HOFAutoRookies.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-18-2016, 10:31 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 35,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies View Post
I say no. The CY award has a very special meaning to the game.


HoFAutoRookies.com
Plus I might have to find another favorite card.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pe901youngpsa2a.jpg (77.4 KB, 310 views)
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-18-2016, 10:35 AM
HOF Auto Rookies's Avatar
HOF Auto Rookies HOF Auto Rookies is offline
Brent Niederman
Bre.nt Nieder.m@n
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Plus I might have to find another favorite card.

Wow! That is a beauty!!


HoFAutoRookies.com
__________________
HOFAutoRookies.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:08 AM
Louieman's Avatar
Louieman Louieman is offline
Louie Michaud
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 407
Default

I really liked the name change with Gwynn and Carew. Don't like at all the idea of Cobb getting it, and I'm cool with the Cy Young award staying as is.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:20 AM
Beatles Guy's Avatar
Beatles Guy Beatles Guy is offline
Jason Albregts
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wright City, MO
Posts: 1,502
Default

If I was forced to choose two names to be on the batting awards, it would have been Ted Williams and Stan Musial.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:51 AM
Rookiemonster's Avatar
Rookiemonster Rookiemonster is offline
Dustin
Dustin Mar.ino
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Nj
Posts: 1,451
Default

I get why cy young had it named after him. I just think the game has changed a ton since then. It's like the nfl mov award being called the red grange. It's
In the 56 it made more sense to name it cy young . If they were to name it today I don't think it should have any of the early players.
__________________
Just a collector that likes to talk and read about the Hobby. 🤓👍🏼
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:51 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,831
Default

I'm surprised at the reaction to Gwynn. In my opinion he is an extremely worthy pick. The guy hit 300 19 years in a row. That's incredible. I am however really disappointed with the Carew pick. I don't care if he has the batting titles, Ted Williams is the obvious pick for AL. No one will think of Rod Carew when you ask them to name the top ten hitters of all time.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-18-2016, 02:07 PM
Steve D's Avatar
Steve D Steve D is offline
5t3v3...D4.w50n
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,972
Default

Well, MLB could do like the NHL where all the awards are known by a player's name (ie, the Calder Trophy for the ROY)

Let's see:

Jackie Robinson Award - ROY

Cy Young Award - Best pitcher in baseball
Christy Mathewson Award - NL
Walter Johnson Award - AL

Ty Cobb Award - Best hitter/highest BA in baseball
Honus Wagner/Tony Gwynn Award - NL
Ted Williams - AL

Hank Aaron Award - Most HRs in baseball
Babe Ruth Award - AL
Willie Mays Award - NL

Fielding Awards:

OF - Tris Speaker Award
2B - Joe Morgan Award
C - Johnny Bench Award
SS - Ozzie Smith Award
3B - Brooks Robinson Award

The only one I have a concern with would be the Walter Johnson Award. I'm afraid the name would be shortened, and it would euphemistically be known as "The Johnson Award"

Steve

Edited to correct the name of the Calder Trophy (thanks to Paul H for the correction).
__________________
Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce.

Current Wantlist:
1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back)
1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox

Last edited by Steve D; 07-18-2016 at 09:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-18-2016, 02:11 PM
HOF Auto Rookies's Avatar
HOF Auto Rookies HOF Auto Rookies is offline
Brent Niederman
Bre.nt Nieder.m@n
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve D View Post
Well, MLB could do like the NHL where all the awards are known by a player's name (ie, the Hobey Baker Award for the ROY)



Let's see:



Jackie Robinson Award - ROY



Cy Young Award - Best pitcher in baseball

Christy Mathewson Award - NL

Walter Johnson Award - AL



Ty Cobb Award - Best hitter/highest BA in baseball

Honus Wagner/Tony Gwynn Award - NL

Ted Williams - AL



Hank Aaron Award - Most HRs in baseball

Babe Ruth Award - AL

Willie Mays Award - NL



Fielding Awards:



OF - Tris Speaker Award

2B - Joe Morgan Award

C - Johnny Bench Award

SS - Ozzie Smith Award

3B - Brooks Robinson Award



The only one I have a concern with would be the Walter Johnson Award. I'm afraid the name would be shortened, and it would euphemistically be known as "The Johnson Award"



Steve

Change Aaron to Bonds (Aaron already has an award after him too), Bench to Pudge, OF Andruw Jones.


HoFAutoRookies.com
__________________
HOFAutoRookies.com
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-18-2016, 02:13 PM
FourStrikes's Avatar
FourStrikes FourStrikes is offline
ThreadKiller
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 639
Default yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve D View Post
Well, MLB could do like the NHL where all the awards are known by a player's name (ie, the Hobey Baker Award for the ROY)

Let's see:

Jackie Robinson Award - ROY

Cy Young Award - Best pitcher in baseball
Christy Mathewson Award - NL
Walter Johnson Award - AL

Ty Cobb Award - Best hitter/highest BA in baseball
Honus Wagner/Tony Gwynn Award - NL
Ted Williams - AL

Hank Aaron Award - Most HRs in baseball
Babe Ruth Award - AL
Willie Mays Award - NL

Fielding Awards:

OF - Tris Speaker Award
2B - Joe Morgan Award
C - Johnny Bench Award
SS - Ozzie Smith Award
3B - Brooks Robinson Award

The only one I have a concern with would be the Walter Johnson Award. I'm afraid the name would be shortened, and it would euphemistically be known as "The Johnson Award"

Steve
+1
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-18-2016, 02:27 PM
BicycleSpokes's Avatar
BicycleSpokes BicycleSpokes is offline
D@v!d R. Fuhrm@n
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Denmark (don't worry, I have a USA mailing address!)
Posts: 264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatles Guy View Post
If I was forced to choose two names to be on the batting awards, it would have been Ted Williams and Stan Musial.
I would certainly be OK with that AL/NL duo as well.

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk
__________________
T206: 130/518
T206 HZ: 6/6
T206 SLers: 48/48
T206 back run: 21/38
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-18-2016, 02:37 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,831
Default

In my opinion the Cy Young award has little to do with Cy Young and its association is a historical one known only to purists. If you asked Kershaw to tell you anything about Cy Young I don't think he could. For that reason I don't really see any real need to change the name. It has taken on a different meaning and naming it after another pitcher I think would be a distraction. The award Cy Young has surpassed the player and man.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-18-2016, 04:28 PM
Mark17's Avatar
Mark17 Mark17 is offline
M@rk S@tterstr0m
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve D View Post

The only one I have a concern with would be the Walter Johnson Award. I'm afraid the name would be shortened, and it would euphemistically be known as "The Johnson Award"

Steve
Be glad we're not talking about Randy Johnson, because then it would be "The Big Unit Award."
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-18-2016, 05:23 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,227
Default

I think all MLB awards should have the name of a great player attached. For me, it doesn't even have to be the "best" player. Attaching names to awards encourages people to think (and care) about the the history of the game.

Same goes for other sports. I especially like the college football awards -- Heisman, Lombardi, Nagurski, Thorpe etc. etc.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-18-2016, 06:32 PM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,920
Default

No, please don't.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-18-2016, 08:01 PM
pherbener's Avatar
pherbener pherbener is offline
Paul Herbener
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,043
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve D View Post
Well, MLB could do like the NHL where all the awards are known by a player's name (ie, the Hobey Baker Award for the ROY)



Steve
Steve, The NHL ROY is the Calder award. The Hobey Baker award is for college hockey's best player. BTW I'm always looking for Hobey items if anyone has any

That being said, I like the idea of the Matty and WaJo awards but it will never happen!
__________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137748538@N02/albums Successful transactions with Sycks22, Vintageloz, jim, zachclose21, shamus, Chris Counts, YankeeFan Snapolit1 and many more.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-18-2016, 08:47 PM
mattsey9's Avatar
mattsey9 mattsey9 is offline
Mike Mattsey
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 632
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve D View Post
2B - Joe Morgan Award


Steve
You spelled Sandberg wrong.
__________________
Nationals attended: 4 (3with Otis)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:01 PM
ValKehl's Avatar
ValKehl ValKehl is offline
Val Kehl
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Manassas, VA (DC suburb)
Posts: 3,672
Default

David, I'm ok with your suggestion, except that I prefer the "Big Train" rather than "Barney."
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-19-2016, 06:00 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 35,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
In my opinion the Cy Young award has little to do with Cy Young and its association is a historical one known only to purists. If you asked Kershaw to tell you anything about Cy Young I don't think he could. For that reason I don't really see any real need to change the name. It has taken on a different meaning and naming it after another pitcher I think would be a distraction. The award Cy Young has surpassed the player and man.
What is a Kershaw? Is it something like this?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rick.jpg (71.6 KB, 183 views)
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 07-19-2016 at 06:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-19-2016, 06:11 AM
Hot Springs Bathers Hot Springs Bathers is offline
Mike Dugan
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,052
Default

The awards should be left as is! If you don't know who Cy Young is and what he did you should follow bowling or polo.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-19-2016, 01:27 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

It should stay how it is, I think you'd be surprised by how many players know who the old timer are.

But, if you wanted to be a stickler and name the awards after the greatest players you'd have to go as follows:

AL MVP- Babe Ruth Award

NL MVP- Wille Mays Award

AL pitcher- Walter Johnson Award

NL Pitcher- Greg Maddux Award


AL Best Hitter- Ted Williams Award

NL Best Hitter- Rogers Hornsby Award


Gold Gloves by position:

C- Johnny Bench

1b- Keith Hernandez

2b-Bill Mazeroski

SS- Ozzie Smith (for now)

3b- Brooks Robinson

LF-Yastrzremski

CF- Andruw Jones

RF- Roberto Clemente

P- Jim Kaat Award (since Maddux already gets the nl pitching)
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits

Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-19-2016 at 01:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-19-2016, 01:50 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,229
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pherbener View Post
Steve, The NHL ROY is the Calder award. The Hobey Baker award is for college hockey's best player. BTW I'm always looking for Hobey items if anyone has any

That being said, I like the idea of the Matty and WaJo awards but it will never happen!
They named a sports award after a sculptor?



Used to go past one of his workshops pretty regularly as a kid, and some of the local towns had small lawn sculptures until they got expensive enough that people stole a couple, after that they all got sent to art auctions.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-19-2016, 11:28 PM
ZenPop's Avatar
ZenPop ZenPop is offline
John Mavroudis
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 337
Default

...with the history of baseball, the idea of having an Andruw Jones award is kind of hilarious.

...and I think Willie Mays should be on more awards:

Best Pitcher - NL = Willie Mays
Best Pitcher - AL = Willie Mays
MVP - NL = Willie Mays
MVP - AL = Willie Mays
ROY - AL = Willie Mays
ROY - NL = Willie Mays

(kind of brings to mind... "At first base, Bugs Bunny. At second base Bugs Bunny. At third base, Bugs Bunny...")
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
illustration * design * posters

www.zenpop.com
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-20-2016, 02:17 AM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

IMHO there are already enough awards named after players. The 'age of specialization' lends itself to even more possibilities: Best set-up man; best seventh inning reliever; best OF performing in a platooned roll; etc. etc.

Statues are another thing - I'm not sure if Burger King has one in the works for me yet.

Too much celebrating for just performing whether as a player or an eater.

They have their piles of money and they can make their own statues - as Ivan Rodriguez has in his back yard (S.I. story).
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-20-2016, 02:20 AM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenPop View Post
...with the history of baseball, the idea of having an Andruw Jones award is kind of hilarious.

...and I think Willie Mays should be on more awards:

Best Pitcher - NL = Willie Mays
Best Pitcher - AL = Willie Mays
MVP - NL = Willie Mays
MVP - AL = Willie Mays
ROY - AL = Willie Mays
ROY - NL = Willie Mays

(kind of brings to mind... "At first base, Bugs Bunny. At second base Bugs Bunny. At third base, Bugs Bunny...")

No- Who's on First, What's on second, and I don't know is on third
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-20-2016, 12:06 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

Quote:
with the history of baseball, the idea of having an Andruw Jones award is kind of hilarious.
well, he IS easily the greatest fielding CF'er of all time, it really isn't even close. every fielding statistic of any merit has him wayy ahead of everyone else
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-20-2016, 02:55 PM
ZenPop's Avatar
ZenPop ZenPop is offline
John Mavroudis
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
well, he IS easily the greatest fielding CF'er of all time, it really isn't even close. every fielding statistic of any merit has him wayy ahead of everyone else
I'd feel completely comfortable taking Mays over Jones in a purely defensive role.
People who watched him play speak of his incredible instincts to go with his out of this world physical talents... Obviously Jones was a great defensive player, but better than the guy who had to patrol the vast Polo Grounds and the horrors of Candlestick? I don't think so.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
illustration * design * posters

www.zenpop.com
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-20-2016, 04:44 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenPop View Post
I'd feel completely comfortable taking Mays over Jones in a purely defensive role.
People who watched him play speak of his incredible instincts to go with his out of this world physical talents... Obviously Jones was a great defensive player, but better than the guy who had to patrol the vast Polo Grounds and the horrors of Candlestick? I don't think so.
in every single defensive statistic he beats Mays. Mays was a better hitter, and a better overall player, but AJ was easily the best defensive Cf'er f all time. He made catches on the trot that most guys had to dive for. His instincts off the bat were simply astounding as was his ability to track the ball as well as his arm.

Total Zone Runs career : AJ-220 Mays-176

Fangraphs DEF number: AJ- 281 Mays- 170


yeah, it's not really close
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 07-20-2016, 04:49 PM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 535
Default Player Awards

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
It should stay how it is, I think you'd be surprised by how many players know who the old timer are.

But, if you wanted to be a stickler and name the awards after the greatest players you'd have to go as follows:

AL MVP- Babe Ruth Award

NL MVP- Wille Mays Award

AL pitcher- Walter Johnson Award

NL Pitcher- Greg Maddux Award


AL Best Hitter- Ted Williams Award

NL Best Hitter- Rogers Hornsby Award


Gold Gloves by position:

C- Johnny Bench

1b- Keith Hernandez

2b-Bill Mazeroski

SS- Ozzie Smith (for now)

3b- Brooks Robinson

LF-Yastrzremski

CF- Andruw Jones

RF- Roberto Clemente

P- Jim Kaat Award (since Maddux already gets the nl pitching)
Right on with Hornsby as best NL hitter. He averaged .401 over 5 consecutive seasons and .399 over 6 years...that's amazing! Have to disagree with NL pitcher...Mathewson, Alexander and Seaver better than Maddux with Seaver & Alexander both posting better WAR & JAWS figures than Maddux. Also, one of the stats that gets lost with post 90's to present day pitchers is the fact that they simply didnt or don't complete games. The toughest outs for a pitcher is the final 3-6 outs and starters don't have to get them anymore. Not their fault of course because that's the way the game is played, but it's hard to say a 7/8 inning pitcher is better than a hurler who completed 50%+ of his games during his prime.

Regards,
Joe T.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-20-2016, 05:15 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageclout View Post
Right on with Hornsby as best NL hitter. He averaged .401 over 5 consecutive seasons and .399 over 6 years...that's amazing! Have to disagree with NL pitcher...Mathewson, Alexander and Seaver better than Maddux with Seaver & Alexander both posting better WAR & JAWS figures than Maddux. Also, one of the stats that gets lost with post 90's to present day pitchers is the fact that they simply didnt or don't complete games. The toughest outs for a pitcher is the final 3-6 outs and starters don't have to get them anymore. Not their fault of course because that's the way the game is played, but it's hard to say a 7/8 inning pitcher is better than a hurler who completed 50%+ of his games during his prime.

Regards,
Joe T.
Mddux has higher WAR than all but Clemens (cough cough roids) Cy Young and Walter Johnson (and only 1 behind WJ in 906 less innings) I think when you consider he did most of his pitching in the steroid era AND didn't possess a 95+ fastball, a very good argument could be made that Maddux is the greatest pitcher of all time.

I am not a fan of baseball reference as I think most of their proprietary stuff is garbage, I use fangraphs


http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits

Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-20-2016 at 05:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 07-22-2016, 06:06 AM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 535
Default WAR Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
Mddux has higher WAR than all but Clemens (cough cough roids) Cy Young and Walter Johnson (and only 1 behind WJ in 906 less innings) I think when you consider he did most of his pitching in the steroid era AND didn't possess a 95+ fastball, a very good argument could be made that Maddux is the greatest pitcher of all time.

I am not a fan of baseball reference as I think most of their proprietary stuff is garbage, I use fangraphs


http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
Not. You better check your data on baseball reference. Maddux is ranked 8th all-time in WAR behind: 1) Young, 2) Johnson, 3) Clemens, 4) Alexander, 5) Nichols, 6) Grove, 7) Seaver. Also, interestingly enough and as I stated in my previous post, Seaver averaged approx. 7.40 innings per start over his 20-year career while Maddux averaged only 6.77 innings per start. That is a significant 2/3 of an inning disparity per start and a loud statement of how Seaver pitched much deeper into games.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 07-22-2016, 06:28 AM
KCRfan1 KCRfan1 is offline
Lou Simcoe
L0u Sim.coe
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Olathe KS
Posts: 1,716
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookiemonster View Post
I get why cy young had it named after him. I just think the game has changed a ton since then. It's like the nfl mov award being called the red grange. It's
In the 56 it made more sense to name it cy young . If they were to name it today I don't think it should have any of the early players.
Dustin, you're going to have to help out a bit.

How has the game changed " a ton "?

The basics, fundamentals, foundation of the game are still in place. In fact you can go to any neighborhood park and find people playing a ball game that's easily recognizable from current day or 100 years ago.

Sure there are teams throughout the country now, and bats have weight limits, and the mound is just a bit lower. But other than that, not much seems to have changed, imo.
__________________
My new found obsession the t206!
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 07-22-2016, 07:37 AM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 535
Default WAR Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
Mddux has higher WAR than all but Clemens (cough cough roids) Cy Young and Walter Johnson (and only 1 behind WJ in 906 less innings) I think when you consider he did most of his pitching in the steroid era AND didn't possess a 95+ fastball, a very good argument could be made that Maddux is the greatest pitcher of all time.

I am not a fan of baseball reference as I think most of their proprietary stuff is garbage, I use fangraphs


http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
Here you go...Rank, Pitcher, MLB Years, WAR#. Taken from BaseballReference.com

1. Cy Young+ (22) 170.3
2. Walter Johnson+ (21) 152.3
3. Roger Clemens (24) 139.4
4. Pete Alexander+ (20) 117.0
5. Kid Nichols+ (15) 116.6
6. Lefty Grove+ (17) 109.9
7. Tom Seaver+ (20) 106.3
8. Greg Maddux+ (23) 104.6

Last edited by Vintageclout; 07-22-2016 at 07:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-22-2016, 09:02 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,229
Default

I haven't studied it in detail, but one of the things I wonder about WAR is how they account for some of the slightly connected stuff. Those things make it slightly similar to wins as far as pitchers go.

For instance, Wins relies on how good the team is, and who the pitcher pitches against. I believe one reason fewer pitchers reach 20 wins is because the rotations are set up so the better guys get matched up against the other teams better pitchers. (I'd have to really get into it to see if this happens more now with larger rotations and less travel time, or if it happened more back then with smaller rotations and more travel time.)

Like wise for WAR, the players who are the second tier players, very good but not great might have that stat dragged down by being up against someone "special" Realistically a pitchers chances against Johnson, Young, or any of those others when they were in their prime weren't all that good.

Of course, WAR might be set up to account for that, and if it is then I'll have to rethink things.

Al things considered, I'd still think Young did stuff that's far beyond what almost anyone else has. Not to mention the amazing durability in an era when pitchers were used as much as possible.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-22-2016, 01:11 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageclout View Post
Here you go...Rank, Pitcher, MLB Years, WAR#. Taken from BaseballReference.com

1. Cy Young+ (22) 170.3
2. Walter Johnson+ (21) 152.3
3. Roger Clemens (24) 139.4
4. Pete Alexander+ (20) 117.0
5. Kid Nichols+ (15) 116.6
6. Lefty Grove+ (17) 109.9
7. Tom Seaver+ (20) 106.3
8. Greg Maddux+ (23) 104.6
I provided a link in my reply above to Fangraphs (which has Maddux 4th) their proprietary WAR is much better and used more often by the saber community than baseball reference.(which to be honest, is considered a little dated)

1- Clemens- 133.7
2- Young- 131.5
3- W. Johnson- 117.1
4- Maddux- 116.7



http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits

Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-22-2016 at 01:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07-22-2016, 01:19 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

and, to be fair, using RA9-WAR Maddux is 6th (and he and Clemens are the only live ball era pitchers in the top 6, which means a good bit and WAR per game rank higher than all the rest)

and using RAR he is 3rd behind only Young and Clemens


Quote:
I haven't studied it in detail, but one of the things I wonder about WAR is how they account for some of the slightly connected stuff. Those things make it slightly similar to wins as far as pitchers go.

For instance, Wins relies on how good the team is, and who the pitcher pitches against. I believe one reason fewer pitchers reach 20 wins is because the rotations are set up so the better guys get matched up against the other teams better pitchers. (I'd have to really get into it to see if this happens more now with larger rotations and less travel time, or if it happened more back then with smaller rotations and more travel time.)

Like wise for WAR, the players who are the second tier players, very good but not great might have that stat dragged down by being up against someone "special" Realistically a pitchers chances against Johnson, Young, or any of those others when they were in their prime weren't all that good.

Of course, WAR might be set up to account for that, and if it is then I'll have to rethink things.

Al things considered, I'd still think Young did stuff that's far beyond what almost anyone else has. Not to mention the amazing durability in an era when pitchers were used as much as possible.

WAR does not consider pitcher wins at all, it looks at the individual pitcher's on field performance relative to a statistical "replacement player" so who a pitcher faces doesn't matter. If he goes 6 innings, K's 9, walks 0, gives up no home runs, one unearned run and loses 1-0 he will be given as much credit as if he went 6, K'd 9, walked 0 gave up no home runs and won 19-0 as he is only credited with the things he has control of (very loose comparison but you get my drift)
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits

Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-22-2016 at 01:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-22-2016, 03:20 PM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 535
Default War

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
I provided a link in my reply above to Fangraphs (which has Maddux 4th) their proprietary WAR is much better and used more often by the saber community than baseball reference.(which to be honest, is considered a little dated)

1- Clemens- 133.7
2- Young- 131.5
3- W. Johnson- 117.1
4- Maddux- 116.7



http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
You are kidding....right? Fangraphs has Perry, Blyleven and Ryan ranked ahead of Seaver, Grove, & Mathewson (not to mention Pedro Martinez)....INNEDIATELY placing its rankings as a complete Joke! And this is the ranking system you swear by? Those 3 pitchers aren't in the same league as the latter 4...LOL...

Last edited by Vintageclout; 07-22-2016 at 03:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-22-2016, 03:23 PM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 535
Default War

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
and, to be fair, using RA9-WAR Maddux is 6th (and he and Clemens are the only live ball era pitchers in the top 6, which means a good bit and WAR per game rank higher than all the rest)

and using RAR he is 3rd behind only Young and Clemens





WAR does not consider pitcher wins at all, it looks at the individual pitcher's on field performance relative to a statistical "replacement player" so who a pitcher faces doesn't matter. If he goes 6 innings, K's 9, walks 0, gives up no home runs, one unearned run and loses 1-0 he will be given as much credit as if he went 6, K'd 9, walked 0 gave up no home runs and won 19-0 as he is only credited with the things he has control of (very loose comparison but you get my drift)
You should also check out JAWS which weights WAR for both career & a pitchers 7 best seasons (for peak value purposes) at 50% each. Very interesting...
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1969-topps complete set, high grade,,"""SOLD"""" mightyq 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 0 09-10-2014 01:28 PM
Legendary Lot 72: 1909-1920s "E"-Caramel Cards and "W"-Strip Cards "Grab-Bag" x2drich2000 Pre-WWII cards (E, D, M, W, etc..) B/S/T 3 09-02-2013 10:07 AM
Large amount of "e", "w", and "t" cards (and more) for sale/trade!! shammus Pre-WWII cards (E, D, M, W, etc..) B/S/T 0 12-19-2010 11:31 AM
T206 Old Mill "Single Factory Overprint" & Cobb "Red Hindu" & "Uzit Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 5 04-14-2009 06:28 PM
1909 Harper's Weekly "Play Ball" with Wagner, Young, Mathewson and more Archive Baseball Memorabilia B/S/T 0 04-28-2008 04:55 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:53 PM.


ebay GSB