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#1
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Should MLB replace Cy Young awards with the "C. Mathewson" and "W. Johnson" awards?
Hi all,
I just finished reading "Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train" by Henry W. Thomas (his grandson, who I understand is a Net54 member). It is a magnificent book, and I highly recommend it. Having grown up in Idaho, I especially enjoyed reading Chapter 2 "The Weiser Wonder" detailing his time in the Idaho Southern Idaho League! (As a kid I can fondly remember playing in baseball tournaments at Walter Johnson Field in Weiser, ID.) As I was finishing the book, the idea occurred to me (probably not the first to have it): Should MLB not replace the NL and AL Cy Young Awards, respectively, with the Christy Mathewson (NL) and Walter Johnson (AL) Awards? (Could be colloquially referred to by their nicknames e.g. the "Matty" and the "Barney"). The great Cy Young has been duly honored as the namesake of the best pitcher awards since 1956. However, dating back even to the first HOF vote to the present day, it seems to be general (though obviously not universal) consensus that Mathewson and Johnson were historically the more dominant pitchers in their respective leagues. I am sure it won't happen, but would be curious to hear other thoughts on the idea! (Feel free to also post your favorite Mattys, Barneys, and Youngs).
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T206: 130/518 T206 HZ: 6/6 T206 SLers: 48/48 T206 back run: 21/38 Last edited by BicycleSpokes; 07-18-2016 at 05:31 AM. |
#2
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I really hope they don't do that. I am probably in the minority but I hated the batting titles getting Gwynn's and Carew's name added to the award.
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#3
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Im all about the traditions in Baseball and would like to keep as many of them as possible. Cy Young does hold the record for most wins career so I think its not so bad having the award in his honor.
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#4
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I agree it is "not so bad" to honor Young. I simply feel a change would be especially timely now as voters no longer tend to blindly vote for the pitcher with the most wins. Also, would be cool to honor two greats with strong NL/AL associations, rather than just one!
Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk
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T206: 130/518 T206 HZ: 6/6 T206 SLers: 48/48 T206 back run: 21/38 Last edited by BicycleSpokes; 07-18-2016 at 06:49 AM. |
#5
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Baseball seems to be trying to make " things " current, and the significance of awards is diluted down imo. Gwynn and Carew were fine players, but not deserving of their names to an award.
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My new found obsession the t206! |
#6
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I agree. And they should have changed the batting title to the "Ty Cobb Award", if anything.
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 07-18-2016 at 07:07 AM. |
#7
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They can change it but maybe with more modern players like the Koufax , ,Gibson . I don't see why we have to have such a dated reference.
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Just a collector that likes to talk and read about the Hobby. 🤓👍🏼 |
#8
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Sounds like a good reason to me.
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 07-18-2016 at 07:13 AM. |
#9
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With baseball's rich history, i fully agree with you all that it is rather rediculous for MLB to attach modern player names to its awards. Cobb is obviously more worthy. Along the lines of my original post, then, how about e.g. Cobb (AL) and Hornsby (NL) awards for the batting titles?!
Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk
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T206: 130/518 T206 HZ: 6/6 T206 SLers: 48/48 T206 back run: 21/38 Last edited by BicycleSpokes; 07-18-2016 at 07:21 AM. |
#10
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No. Keep them as-is. Gwynn and Carew awards = horrible idea.
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#11
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There's too much stuff where many younger people don't appreciate it because they're entirely unaware of anything that came earlier. There's also a boatload of stuff that's the "new" thing even if it's been around since the 1800's (Or 1970's, or whenever it was actually invented. ) Steve B |
#12
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The less tradition MLB chooses to throw away, the better.
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#13
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I say no. The CY award has a very special meaning to the game.
HoFAutoRookies.com
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HOFAutoRookies.com |
#14
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Plus I might have to find another favorite card.
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Leon Luckey |
#15
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Wow! That is a beauty!! HoFAutoRookies.com
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HOFAutoRookies.com |
#16
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I really liked the name change with Gwynn and Carew. Don't like at all the idea of Cobb getting it, and I'm cool with the Cy Young award staying as is.
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#17
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If I was forced to choose two names to be on the batting awards, it would have been Ted Williams and Stan Musial.
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#18
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I get why cy young had it named after him. I just think the game has changed a ton since then. It's like the nfl mov award being called the red grange. It's
In the 56 it made more sense to name it cy young . If they were to name it today I don't think it should have any of the early players.
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Just a collector that likes to talk and read about the Hobby. 🤓👍🏼 |
#19
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I'm surprised at the reaction to Gwynn. In my opinion he is an extremely worthy pick. The guy hit 300 19 years in a row. That's incredible. I am however really disappointed with the Carew pick. I don't care if he has the batting titles, Ted Williams is the obvious pick for AL. No one will think of Rod Carew when you ask them to name the top ten hitters of all time.
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#20
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Well, MLB could do like the NHL where all the awards are known by a player's name (ie, the Calder Trophy for the ROY)
Let's see: Jackie Robinson Award - ROY Cy Young Award - Best pitcher in baseball Christy Mathewson Award - NL Walter Johnson Award - AL Ty Cobb Award - Best hitter/highest BA in baseball Honus Wagner/Tony Gwynn Award - NL Ted Williams - AL Hank Aaron Award - Most HRs in baseball Babe Ruth Award - AL Willie Mays Award - NL Fielding Awards: OF - Tris Speaker Award 2B - Joe Morgan Award C - Johnny Bench Award SS - Ozzie Smith Award 3B - Brooks Robinson Award The only one I have a concern with would be the Walter Johnson Award. I'm afraid the name would be shortened, and it would euphemistically be known as "The Johnson Award" Steve Edited to correct the name of the Calder Trophy (thanks to Paul H for the correction).
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Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce. Current Wantlist: 1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back) 1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox Last edited by Steve D; 07-18-2016 at 09:52 PM. |
#21
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Change Aaron to Bonds (Aaron already has an award after him too), Bench to Pudge, OF Andruw Jones. HoFAutoRookies.com
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HOFAutoRookies.com |
#22
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yup.
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#23
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Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk
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T206: 130/518 T206 HZ: 6/6 T206 SLers: 48/48 T206 back run: 21/38 |
#24
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In my opinion the Cy Young award has little to do with Cy Young and its association is a historical one known only to purists. If you asked Kershaw to tell you anything about Cy Young I don't think he could. For that reason I don't really see any real need to change the name. It has taken on a different meaning and naming it after another pitcher I think would be a distraction. The award Cy Young has surpassed the player and man.
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#25
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Be glad we're not talking about Randy Johnson, because then it would be "The Big Unit Award."
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#26
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I think all MLB awards should have the name of a great player attached. For me, it doesn't even have to be the "best" player. Attaching names to awards encourages people to think (and care) about the the history of the game.
Same goes for other sports. I especially like the college football awards -- Heisman, Lombardi, Nagurski, Thorpe etc. etc. |
#27
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No, please don't.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#28
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That being said, I like the idea of the Matty and WaJo awards but it will never happen!
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/137748538@N02/albums Successful transactions with Sycks22, Vintageloz, jim, zachclose21, shamus, Chris Counts, YankeeFan Snapolit1 and many more. |
#29
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Nationals attended: 4 (3with Otis) |
#30
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David, I'm ok with your suggestion, except that I prefer the "Big Train" rather than "Barney."
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#31
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 07-19-2016 at 06:02 AM. |
#32
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The awards should be left as is! If you don't know who Cy Young is and what he did you should follow bowling or polo.
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#33
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It should stay how it is, I think you'd be surprised by how many players know who the old timer are.
But, if you wanted to be a stickler and name the awards after the greatest players you'd have to go as follows: AL MVP- Babe Ruth Award NL MVP- Wille Mays Award AL pitcher- Walter Johnson Award NL Pitcher- Greg Maddux Award AL Best Hitter- Ted Williams Award NL Best Hitter- Rogers Hornsby Award Gold Gloves by position: C- Johnny Bench 1b- Keith Hernandez 2b-Bill Mazeroski SS- Ozzie Smith (for now) 3b- Brooks Robinson LF-Yastrzremski CF- Andruw Jones RF- Roberto Clemente P- Jim Kaat Award (since Maddux already gets the nl pitching)
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-19-2016 at 01:28 PM. |
#34
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Used to go past one of his workshops pretty regularly as a kid, and some of the local towns had small lawn sculptures until they got expensive enough that people stole a couple, after that they all got sent to art auctions. Steve B |
#35
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...with the history of baseball, the idea of having an Andruw Jones award is kind of hilarious.
...and I think Willie Mays should be on more awards: Best Pitcher - NL = Willie Mays Best Pitcher - AL = Willie Mays MVP - NL = Willie Mays MVP - AL = Willie Mays ROY - AL = Willie Mays ROY - NL = Willie Mays (kind of brings to mind... "At first base, Bugs Bunny. At second base Bugs Bunny. At third base, Bugs Bunny...")
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#36
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IMHO there are already enough awards named after players. The 'age of specialization' lends itself to even more possibilities: Best set-up man; best seventh inning reliever; best OF performing in a platooned roll; etc. etc.
Statues are another thing - I'm not sure if Burger King has one in the works for me yet. Too much celebrating for just performing whether as a player or an eater. They have their piles of money and they can make their own statues - as Ivan Rodriguez has in his back yard (S.I. story).
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. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#37
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No- Who's on First, What's on second, and I don't know is on third
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. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#38
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits |
#39
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People who watched him play speak of his incredible instincts to go with his out of this world physical talents... Obviously Jones was a great defensive player, but better than the guy who had to patrol the vast Polo Grounds and the horrors of Candlestick? I don't think so.
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#40
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Total Zone Runs career : AJ-220 Mays-176 Fangraphs DEF number: AJ- 281 Mays- 170 yeah, it's not really close
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits |
#41
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Player Awards
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Regards, Joe T. |
#42
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I am not a fan of baseball reference as I think most of their proprietary stuff is garbage, I use fangraphs http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-20-2016 at 05:16 PM. |
#43
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WAR Rankings
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#44
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How has the game changed " a ton "? The basics, fundamentals, foundation of the game are still in place. In fact you can go to any neighborhood park and find people playing a ball game that's easily recognizable from current day or 100 years ago. Sure there are teams throughout the country now, and bats have weight limits, and the mound is just a bit lower. But other than that, not much seems to have changed, imo.
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My new found obsession the t206! |
#45
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WAR Rankings
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1. Cy Young+ (22) 170.3 2. Walter Johnson+ (21) 152.3 3. Roger Clemens (24) 139.4 4. Pete Alexander+ (20) 117.0 5. Kid Nichols+ (15) 116.6 6. Lefty Grove+ (17) 109.9 7. Tom Seaver+ (20) 106.3 8. Greg Maddux+ (23) 104.6 Last edited by Vintageclout; 07-22-2016 at 07:38 AM. |
#46
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I haven't studied it in detail, but one of the things I wonder about WAR is how they account for some of the slightly connected stuff. Those things make it slightly similar to wins as far as pitchers go.
For instance, Wins relies on how good the team is, and who the pitcher pitches against. I believe one reason fewer pitchers reach 20 wins is because the rotations are set up so the better guys get matched up against the other teams better pitchers. (I'd have to really get into it to see if this happens more now with larger rotations and less travel time, or if it happened more back then with smaller rotations and more travel time.) Like wise for WAR, the players who are the second tier players, very good but not great might have that stat dragged down by being up against someone "special" Realistically a pitchers chances against Johnson, Young, or any of those others when they were in their prime weren't all that good. Of course, WAR might be set up to account for that, and if it is then I'll have to rethink things. Al things considered, I'd still think Young did stuff that's far beyond what almost anyone else has. Not to mention the amazing durability in an era when pitchers were used as much as possible. Steve B |
#47
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1- Clemens- 133.7 2- Young- 131.5 3- W. Johnson- 117.1 4- Maddux- 116.7 http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-22-2016 at 01:14 PM. |
#48
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and, to be fair, using RA9-WAR Maddux is 6th (and he and Clemens are the only live ball era pitchers in the top 6, which means a good bit and WAR per game rank higher than all the rest)
and using RAR he is 3rd behind only Young and Clemens Quote:
WAR does not consider pitcher wins at all, it looks at the individual pitcher's on field performance relative to a statistical "replacement player" so who a pitcher faces doesn't matter. If he goes 6 innings, K's 9, walks 0, gives up no home runs, one unearned run and loses 1-0 he will be given as much credit as if he went 6, K'd 9, walked 0 gave up no home runs and won 19-0 as he is only credited with the things he has control of (very loose comparison but you get my drift)
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"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 07-22-2016 at 01:24 PM. |
#49
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War
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Last edited by Vintageclout; 07-22-2016 at 03:32 PM. |
#50
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War
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