I'm glad I'm a vintage collector-Interesting article about hobby

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Reeling Baseball Card Industry Looking to Stop Slump
Two Major Companies Have Dropped Out of Game in Recent Months
By GREG RISLING, AP Sports

LOS ANGELES (Sept. 2) - The shelves are crammed with boxes of baseball cards at Mike Mittrick's store. It gives his customers lots of choices, but also illustrates how the hobby's landscape had become cluttered and confusing for collectors.




Faced with declining revenue over the past decade, the baseball card industry - once comprised of four major manufacturers - has been halved in a matter of months.
One company closed its doors. Another had its license to make products in 2006 dropped, and the oldest, most recognizable brand was rumored to be up for sale.
Insiders hope the shakeup will bring the struggling industry out of its slump and help reclaim its main demographic - boys who are spending their money on other diversions such as video games and the popular Yu-Gi-Oh game cards.
"We felt the best way to position it for growth was to have fewer manufacturers producing cards," said Evan Kaplan, director of trading cards and collectibles for the Major League Baseball Players Association, which along with Major League Baseball charges manufacturers licensing fees to produce cards.
"We don't expect it to get back to the way it was like in the 1950s or 1960s, but this new model will be better than we have now," Kaplan said.
The downsizing is a mixed bag for retailers such as Mittrick, who runs 52 Mantle Card Co. in the Orange County city of Brea. He opened his store in the early 1990s when the sports card industry posted revenue of more than $1 billion as speculators scooped up cards hoping for a big return on their investment.
Baseball cards then comprised 80 percent of the industry's revenue but now account for less than half - an estimated $120 million.
The rising cost of cards has played a major role in the decline. Collectors spent between 89 cents and $3 on a pack of cards in the mid-1990s. Today, the average price is about $5 as companies include goodies such as autographs, small pieces of jerseys or even bat slivers in a small number of packs to drive sales.




Some packs - guaranteed to have the extras - can command up to $150.
The changes have driven away some collectors and, in turn, forced many card shop owners out of business. A decade ago, there were about 4,500 card stores across the country. Now that number has shrunk to 1,200.
"People just do not have enough disposable income nowadays to be able to spend a ton on cards," said Jeff Beals, 19, of Nashua, N.H., who estimates he spends about $200 a month on his hobby.
"If the companies place quality over quantity... it will help the hobby a lot," he said.
Mittrick, 36, is one of the survivors. He said he sometimes makes only $5 to $10 profit on an entire box of cards. He's squeezed even more these days because his rent increased after he moved his shop to a new location. To supplement his income, Mittrick has been engraving plaques for the past couple years.
Industry downsizing will allow him to trim the $6,000 a month he was spending to offer a competitive selection of cards. But it could also cut into his already shrinking profits.
"Life isn't any easier," he said. "I'm getting less customers because of the move, and now I will have fewer products."
Dwindling interest in the hobby coupled with exorbitant costs to put memorabilia into packs of cards helped sink New Jersey-based Fleer. Saddled with more than $30 million in debt, the company went out of business in May and rival Upper Deck of Carlsbad, Calif., bought its name and toy car business for $6.1 million at auction.




Fleer plans to auction off some of its remaining memorabilia in September to pay a list of creditors that includes dozens of professional athletes.
In July, collectors were stunned when MLBPA opted not to renew its contract for 2006 with Donruss/Playoff of Arlington, Texas. The company laid off 30 of its 100 employees but will keep making football cards.
"We truly felt that because of the quality of our cards and their popularity, that we would not have our license revoked," said Donruss spokesman Ted Barker. "It is safe to say that it's a very sad place around here."
Many collectors were upset about the fate of Donruss, a company they said scored points with strategies such as buying a Babe Ruth jersey for more than $260,000 in 2003 then slicing it up and putting the pieces into packs of cards.
Barker said Donruss has spent tens of millions of dollars on players' jerseys and other paraphernalia to offer with cards. The company also signed exclusive contracts with legends such as Hank Aaron and Willie Mays to sign autographs.
MLBPA's decision only leaves Upper Deck and the publicly traded Topps, which has been around since the 1950s but recently announced a 20 percent drop in first quarter sales for its cards, collectibles and other entertainment products.
In May, the company responded to rumors that it might be looking for a buyer by noting it hired Lehman Bros. to review its books and make recommendations about its future.
Manufacturers are expected to offer fewer sets of cards in the future, but Mittrick worries they will boost the overall number of cards released.




"It's going to tick off collectors if that happens," he said.
The remaining card companies believe they can bring kids back to the hobby and intend to make more investments in marketing and product development.
"Clearing the clutter of too many products on shelves and making this hobby an easier one to understand is a major step in the right direction," Topps spokesman Clay Luraschi said.
Still, some cards can fetch high prices thanks to Internet auction houses such as eBay that help determine fair market value.
An autographed card of New York Yankees great Lou Gehrig recently sold for $7,000. But the granddaddy of all cards is a 1909 T206 tobacco card of Hall of Fame shortstop Honus Wagner that can sell for more than $200,000.
Many observers say the industry has turned into a gamble for collectors who chase the higher-end cards.
"Something had to be changed because the current model isn't working," said Scott Kelnhofer, editor of Card Trade, a monthly trade for distributors and card shop owners. "The end result is clear - the industry is losing revenue and losing collectors."

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

"the hobby's landscape had become cluttered and confusing for collectors"

That statement pretty much sums up what wrong with modern cards. My son recently expressed interest in picking up a RC of Ichiro Suzuki. I went on Beckett.com to get an idea of what's out there and the guy's got AT LEAST 50 so called rookie cards in about 50 different sets. How the hell is a kid going to get involved in a hobby if he doesn't know where to start? Thank God for vintage. At least it's a little easier to follow.

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Posted By: jay behrens

"...Donruss scored points buy purchasing ans cutting up a Babe Ruth uniform."

Who are they ralking about it. They certainly didn't score any points with any true baseball fans.

I think industry just has to look at its history to figure out what is wrong. 1980s, 4 sets and no chase cards, massive sales. 1990s 400 sets and chase cards, plummetting sales.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay's point is right on. The hobby took a nosedive with the proliferation of the 50 sets per year and so many 1/1 cards. When kids actually had a chacnce to complete the one available set a year, everyone was interested.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

When I was a kid we all competed to see who could get a complete run of Aaron, Mays and Clemente cards. I pulled off a full Topps Mays run when I was 11; my friend finished Clemente that year too. Today there are hundreds or even thousands of cards of a particular player, many of which are subject to contrived scarcity, which makes it impossible for kids to do what we used to do.

The last new cards I actually bought in packs (other than as gifts for my nephew) were in 1997.

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Posted By: Mike H

They are all suffering the fate they deserve...a new curse of the Bambino, for cutting up his jersey.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Talking about new cards???? Ahhh, as it relates to the hobby in general.

When we were younger kids, we'd have cards, and if we did find a guide or a list, we could see which ones they were. Each year a new set. Now, there are a zillion subsets... you go nuts trying to figure out what a card is!

I mainly collect pre WW II cards. T cards, E cards, and Ws when affordable. But I will confess to working on a set of the 2004 Topps blue mini Cracker Jack cards.

I like the St. Louis Cardinals, and on occasion I buy a few cards of their current players, if affordably priced on eBay. Sometimes I have no idea what I've bought. And that is ok with me, because I'm not attempting to fill a set of them. But it is confusing.

I'd like to see Topps make ONE set each year, of about a thousand cards, 10 series of 10, no factory sets... with about 5% fewer boxes of series 2 than series 1, 5% fewer of series 3 than series 4, and so on. Later series issued as the season progresses, final series issued showing world series and playoff results. Can't buy all of the series first of the season. Nothing autographed, cut up, chromed, bought back, or Willie Wonka'd. I figure I'm in the minority on that. I am content to live in a qualified democracy... don't even mind doing what the majority wants... just as long as the majority understands that they aren't always right. Sometimes more people are wrong about some things.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I remeber back in the 80s, I think it was ProSet, talked about a "living set". The idea was that you started with your basic set. During the course of the year, as players got hurt and replaced, you pulled their cards from the set and replaced them with the guys that took their roster spot. Talk about the ultimate chase cards. Doing something like this would force people to buy cards all year long if they want to complete a set and would create some serious short prints. People chasing rookie cards would also be buying cards all year long in hopes of snagging those short printed rookies in hopes that they blossom into stars.

It's the perfect way to maintain interest in your set without manufactured rarities. Your shortprints become your chase cards, just like the good old days.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

I have a different view on this, I think. Yes, I do think there are too many sets out there, but I think that's a result of the card companies trying to build in scarcity and stimulate sales from a smaller customer base than there was in the 1970s and 80s.

The reasons for this, in my opinion, are salary arbitration and video games.

Huh?

Yes. Every few years, the baseball teams have to prove to an independent arbitrator that their star players are not worth the money they're asking. Because of this, they don't spend a lot of time marketing their players, and neither does Major League Baseball. They can't. If Albert Pujols goes to arbitration and asks for $15 million, and the Cards only want to pay him $8 million, the Cards will make a case for why he doesn't deserve the money. If they were marketing him heavily, his people could just turn around and say "What are you talking about? You've been using him in all your marketing campaigns, talking about him like he's a superhero."

So the team ownership, and the game in general, need to be careful about how they market players.

This has trickled down to kids. When I was a kid, baseball players were superheros. Even marginal guys like Bucky Dent, Rick Cerone, Lee Mazzilli were heavily marketed all over New York in the late 70s and early 80s. They were matinee idols, and every kid in the NY area wanted to be Reggie, Nettles, Guidry, Munson. I have kids the same age right now, and aside from Derek Jeter and Albert Pujols, ballplayers just don't have that same level of superstardom.

So why would the casual young fan want to go out and collect baseball cards of guys they don't know, when they could sit in front of the Playstation instead? Playstation is more interactive, very realistic, and stimulates a kid's imagination. Pulling shiny Eric Milton cards out of packs just doesn't accomplish that.

-Al

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

When I was a kid I collected for 1987 to 1992. By 1991 I started getting discouraged by how many different subsets that companies put out where I finally gave up about halfway though 1992. Looking at the price guide now, what I felt like was to much excess in the early 90's seems as though it has increased 10 fold today in regards to how many different cards are produced today.

I am actually glad that some of the companies have gone out of business b/c the hobby is so cluttered that anyone who might want to begin collecting basball cards could immediatly be turn off by the excess that is produced today. The the amount of autographs and game used material that companies put out today has complety turn me off from collecting modern day cards and began my focus in vintage cards about 4 months ago.

What I would like to see in the industry to try and get kids intrested in the hobby again is for a company to produce 1 set with 3 tiers of cards. The first tier mass produced with a limit of rc's numbered at 50,000 for each card so that it is easily attainable to kids to complete the set and cheap enough for kids to actually buy a pack. The 2nd tier would have rc's numbered to 25,000 and the the last tier numbered to 1,000 for the more advanced collector. Instead of game used cards and auto's why not have redemption cards for the actual jersey/bat or and autographed picture or ball. While I do not believe that a company is spending $250,000 for a bat and then actually cutting up that bat to put on a card. I feel that collectors would enjoy the piece more if it is given to one person as a whole that way the history of the game is preserved better and the items are cherished more.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Mark Macrae and I went to the Kit Young Hawaii Show in Feb 1993
and besides setting up at the show, we attended several of the
Seminars. These were "dog & pony" sessions presented by most of
the new card manufacturers (Donruss, Fleer, Upper Deck, etc.).

Everyone of them were represented by lawyers, agents, and "B..S"
executives telling us how much the ballplayers "rights" were of
concern; and how the players were going to be compensated for
having their faces depicted on a BB card...."GIVE ME A BREAK".

And, how these card producers were going to make their product
"counterfeit-proof". And, how they were going to produce flashy
looking sports cards for the kids to enjoy.

Well, the "kids did not enjoy"; instead, they dropped out.


When the cost of a pack of BB cards (thanx to above mentioned
idiots that ran these card companys) started approaching $4 or $5
the kids, or their parents refused to buy them.

And, combine this with the Baseball Strike the following year,
the hobby has lost a new generation of kids to carry on the
collecting habits of us older generation of collectors.

I am sure most recall the "Trickle-Down" theories of the '80s.

Well. my twist on this is the "TRICKLE-UP" theory....this is
when you get many, many kids interested in BB card collecting
that they bring their parents, or even better yet, their grand-
parents to BB cards shows. The kids spend several $$ on the BB
cards (or Packs) they want and their folks spend many more $$
on the BB players of their generations. Then everyone is happy.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

are autographed inserts when their prices drop to the point where it is much cheaper to get the insert than to actually get an autograph at a show. Other than that I pay no attention to the new stuff.

That said, those collectors who are baseball fans would buy a simple, well designed, inexpensive set for the fun of it. Problem is, none of us will spend three figures trying to put together a set that (1) will not hold any value and (b) will be available fully assembled in a year or two for a low price anyway.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think baseball cards themselves as the "product" will eventually fade out altogether.

I think we will revert back to seeing OTHER products (candy bars, bread, cereal, etc.) using inserted baseball cards to help boost sales of their products.

THIS will be GOOD for the hobby.

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Posted By: Anson

Oh c'mon, who wants to buy my triple triumverant pentacular blue-gold refracting game-used die-cut autographed mirror plutonium 1/1 Ichiro rookie?

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Posted By: Bryan

a couple of months ago being that I was a big Bo fan in the late 80's. Well I am bored of it and want to get rid of it to buy some more vintage stuff. I bought a Beckett to see what it is worth to get an idea. I CAN NOT FIGURE OUT WHICH SET IT IS FROM! There are so many parallel sets that I don't have a clue which one it is.

Simply put, modern cards are a joke.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

When I first read your post here, predicting that sportscards
will eventually revert back to being a premium to enhance the
sale of a given product.....I chuckled.

After mulling your words over in my mind for a day, I think
I really like your prediction.....After all, this is how it all
started. If you are right, this hobby will have gone full cycle

I recall as a 9 year old kid buying a penny pack of Bowman gum,
not because I was seriously collecting 1948 BB, FB, BasketBall,
or Movie Star cards; but, because I preferred the flavor of the
Bowman gum over Bazooka, Double Bubble, etc. Furthermore, the
consistency of Bowman's gum allowed us to blow bigger bubbles.
The following year is when I really got serious about BB cards.

Well, if some enterprising Candy, Gum, or Whatever tasty morsel
company starts inserting a single sportscard with their product
and prices it at a $1.00, then the kids once again will be able
to afford these "goodies". This will cause a revolution and force
the big card manufacturers to adjust in order to compete; and,
we will see tremendous growth in the hobby like we saw during
the 1980's.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ted:

I'm glad you realized that I was somewhat serious in my prediction! I thought everyone just thought I was crazy.

I can tell you this:

If they started inserting a BASEBALL CARD in every pack of the following items, then I GUARANTEE you that my son and his friends would tell their moms to buy ONLY that particular brand in order to get the cards:

Toothpaste
Bread
Cereal
Notebook Paper
Bubble Gum
Batteries
Pop-Tarts
Cereal
Milk carton
Frozen Pizza
Ice Cream
Rice
Band-Aids
etc., etc.

These are ALL products that are essentially "generic" in some degree... so the addition of a different BASEBALL CARD inside each one would DEFINITELY boost sales at my house for my kids.

I'm pretty sure the same would be true for households across the country with young boys.


CAN THIS EVER BE DONE AGAIN???

Would MLB ever allow these companies to use the images for cards to promote their products WITHOUT charging the companies so much for the images that there is no way to make a profit off of them??

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Hal,

One word -

"Twinkies"

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Posted By: Bryan

Hal,

I can see how your prediction may have some truth but inserting cards in products was running wild in the late 80's to early 90's. I have McDonald's cards, Purina cards, Dominoes pizza cards, Ultra Pro (card storage pages) cards, Denny's cards, Coca-Cola cards, cards in cereal boxes, ect... So it seems like what brought life to the hobby also had a part in killing it.

Personally, I would like to see manufacturers to start adding cards to products again. Might bring kids back and might make the manufacturers rethink what they are doing.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Bryan:

The difference between your scenario and what I am envisioning for the future is this:

In the 1920's, you could NOT just go to the store and buy a PACK OF BASEBALL CARDS. Nor could you just write to Renatta Galasso and get the whole set. If you wanted a baseball card, you had NO CHOICE but to buy cigarettes or caramel or bread.

In the late 1990's when you were collecting pizza cards... they were essentially just an additional set of cards in a sea of 100 different sets. If you wanted the box set, you could get it. If you wanted just cards and no gum, you could get it. There was NOTHING DIFFICULT about getting your hands on a baseball card.

In other words, for my "dream scenario" to take place...

TOPPS and UPPER DECK would have to join DONRUSS and FLEER in the "trash heap"!!!!



Then the ONLY way to get ANY baseball cards would be to BUY a TON of TWINKIES!!!!!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Think about it this way:

If a kid has $2.00 to spend...he can currently go to the store and buy a pack of cards that contains 8 to 10 different cards.

BUT... in my scenario... his $2.00 would only buy ONE twinkie and therefore only ONE card!!

Thus, it would be a LOT harder for anyone to buy enough Twinkies to complete the whole set... and therefore cards would be a lot harder to come by and therefore a LOT MORE FUN to "hunt."

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Most of the issues from the 80's that were inserted into products were quite ugly, and it seemed like little thought went into the design of them - those cards were certainly not up to the design of sets like T205 or T3. The rights to MLB logos were a big problem...I have some Dorman's (I think) cards that were inserted into cheese slices, and the pictures are all mugshots with the team logo airbrushed off.

Hal, I hope your scenario happens - I might start collecting modern cards again!

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Posted By: tbob

Am I the only one who thinks the beginning of the end for modern cards was when Topps lost its monopoly in the law suit to Fleer in 1981? Normally monopolies are a bad thing but in this case, it allowed a little order and sanity in the modern card market. True, Topps' offerings from 1973 until 1980 were pretty poor looking aesthetically but the debacle that followed the law suit has crippled the card industry and I predict it will never pull out again.
I've gone 14 years without opening a pack of cards after having opened them from 1958 until 1991. Never again...

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Everything was still alright when it was just Topps, Donruss, and Fleer (although I never knew any different as I started collecting in 1988). Upper Deck's arrival is what screwed things up because they pushed the envelope on prices and forced the other companies to come out with "premium" brands of their own. That spiraled out of control and resulted in "premium", "super-premium", "super-duper premium", and "ultra premium" products, some with refractors of refractors and those ridiculous 1/1 cards.

The current hobby has totally shafted single player collectors, which is likely another reason for weaker sales today. Back in the early 1990's a single player collector could still put together his guy's cards for the year at a reasonable price, but with the advent of the chase cards limited to 1, 5, or 10 it isn't possible to complete a player set anymore.

MLB should have exercised more control over their license and restricted the number of sets that each manufacturer could produce to two at the most. They also should have immediately yanked the licenses of companies that cut up priceless relics like Babe Ruth's bat.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The funny part about adding competition (Donruss, Fleer and Upperdeck) to the baseball card manufacturing game is that competition usually results in lower prices. In this case competition resulted in the beginning of the end for kids and baseball cards.

Collecting habits started to change to speculating on rookie cards. Then each company added those chase cards and the next thing you know it wasn't a kid thing anymore, it was an adult past time that pushed kids out of the market. Even kids (that could afford it) were hooked into the rookie and chase card craze.

It makes you wonder how much money people spent on over produced rookie cards and over hyped chase cards. I would be willing to bet that there are several people that spent thousands on those cards and couldn't recoup a nickel on the dollar for that stuff. I would also be willing to bet that a lot of those people are hesitant to delve further into the hobby because the thousands they spent on over hyped and produced material is wasting away in closets and they aren't interested in spending more on the hobby because they probably haven't a clue about what's out there (unless it sparkles and shines).

There are so many more options (vid games, etc) for kids these days that baseball cards are just heaped in with the rest of the crud available. I'd hate to be on the marketing staff for MLB or some of these baseball card companies because it looks like a rough road ahead for them.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Here's the bottom line for me. I took my ten-year-old son to the East Coast National a few weeks ago. He loves basketball, and has a few hundred cards from various years - he's very casual about his collection. Walking the floor of the show, I was SHOCKED - four separate times, adults on the floor used the "f" word in conversation with other adults, right in front of my son - then, turned to me and apologized for the language. My son became pretty timid around all these grown-ups, using truck driver language and standing around, poking fun of all the shiny cards.

We walked the floor three or four times, and finally came across a table in the back of the room that had some shiny baseketball stuff. There was a box of cards with a "10 for $15" sign on it. As soon as my son started looking through the cards, the seller walked up to him and quietly said "Hi, buddy. See that sign on the box? That's for grownups only. For kids, it's 15 cards for $15. Shhh - don't tell any grownups."

THAT guy had the right idea. My son spent half an hour going through that box, and was absolutely thrilled to get his 15 shiny basketball cards. One of them was some sort of weird Bill Russell tribute card, and on the way home, the Bill Russell card got him asking me about older players - baseball and basketball - and suddenly he's interested in more vintage cards.

Basically, I think if we want this to be a kids' hobby, we should probably pay attention to the kids when they're at shows or in card shops, instead of blowing them off because they're not going to buy a 52 Mantle. I'd be willing to bet there are more than a few people on this board that started their collections at a young age, and I'll bet they all remember how bad it felt to be ignored by a card seller simply because you were a kid. I sure do.

-Al

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Posted By: Bryan

Hal,

Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking of something different, obviously. I like the idea but I find one problem with it. Since we collect vintage we don't see that there are people out there who truely enjoy the hunt of opening up a fresh pack of cards and in this country of ours as long as there is someone willing to pay money for something there will always be someone willing to make it. Plus in order for your idea to happen Topps would have to stop making cards. I am not a fan of theirs but I think it will be one very dark day in the hobby when they close up shop so to speak. But then again right now it seems as if the hobby is more likely to tank than rebound. It will be interesting to see.

Bryan

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Posted By: Bryan

If buying shiny new cards got my kid interested in collecting and maybe someday interested in collecting vintage I would buy boxes of the new stuff and have a smile on my face while doing it.

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Posted By: dennis

i agree with just about everything everyone has posted about modern cards. i quit buying them in 1993 thinking there were too many sets then.that was the tip of the iceberg, just pick up a beckett and there's like 2 pages of card prices for vintage and 200 pages for modern since 1995!

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Posted By: tobacco-r-us

Ted,
You may not remember me, but when I started recollecting cards back in 1982 after having bought my first 1941 Play Ball chewing gum pack back in 1941. - you were one of the many dealers at the Willow Grove show that I would always make sure to check in with.
You mentioned 1948 Bowmans.
You were my guideline and my Guru when you wrote that article on the 1948 Bowman Football.
I still have that set, and I believe that I still have that article somewhere.
Always good to read your post.
Joe

PS.
You're right about the Bowman Gum bubble.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOE

1982....That's like a lifetime in this hobby. Can you give me
more of a hint, and I am sure I will recognize you.

I wrote so many different articles on the Bowman (1948 - 1953)
BB and FB cards, that its not easy to keep track of everyone
anymore.

Incidently, I have lots of copies, so if you can't find it, I
can send you one.

Ted Z

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Posted By: steve k

<<< I think baseball cards themselves as the "product" will eventually fade out altogether.>>>

Interesting topic. My first year of collecting and opening packs as a young boy was in 1962. I bought the card packs strictly for the cards - the Topps gum in those packs sucked - LOL. There were other gums such as those little Bazooka gums with the tiny comic strip Bazooka Joe that was so much better.

As far as the cards themselves as the “product” fading out - interesting point. I remember thinking about 10 or 15 years ago that actually cards might fade out altogether. Back in 1962 there was of course no internet, TV’s were mostly black & white, and the sports magazines didn’t always have information about the players you wanted information on. There were local newspapers of course but that rarely gave you the history of the players. Having that beautiful little color card in your hand, with the nice picture of the players and those stats - I loved those stats on the back and spent countless hours looking at them. I used to absolutely hate the years when Topps would only print the lifetime stats and last years stats and not the total year to year stats - LOL. But the point is that all this information is now readily available on the internet and even elsewhere. Why buy a little baseball card when you can quickly click on a website and get all kinds of pictures, information, stats, etc., on every player - way, WAY much more “stuff” than any baseball card could possibly provide unless there was a little microchip in there (might eventually happen). However, we still love our cards and kids seem to still love their cards. The kids possibly love their cards because their parents and grandparents loved their cards.

Will the next generation of kids say 20 years from now be collecting baseball cards? I have no idea and nobody can really accurately predict the future. All I know is despite the consolidation of the baseball card printing industry, I strongly believe the hobby of collecting baseball cards is very alive and healthy, and appears that it will stay that way in the foreseeable future.

Steve

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Two bucks a package of two? Man, it HAS been a while since I bought any of those...

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Posted By: Anson

Unfortunately, it would only give me one more reason to buy Milk Duds (looks down). Ugh!

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Posted By: John_B_California

I don't know if video games and entertainment are to blame.

I loved collecting cards with my friends in the late 80's and early 90's, yet there were plenty of other distractions to keep us busy. Acrades took the place of the advanced home systems today, and Nintendo and Sega had booming businesses. Most people had a few hundred dollars worth of games and consoles at their homes then, and it's pretty much the same now (albeit with better graphics and games).

Three big things that killed the market were high prices, too much product/confusion, and scandals/declining quality in some of the leagues.

-Anything over $2, $3, or $4 a pack, and it just got too expensive. I stopped collecting when there weren't anymore 36 count boxes with 15 cards per pack.

-Player collectors got killed off. Team collectors got killed off. Set collectors got killed off. I'd love to see 3 or 4 sets per year again. Stagger them in different series throughout the year. Selling the thrill of the hunt should be one of the marketing objectives. Sell anticipation.

-The NBA after Jordan hasn't been the same. The NHL is in trouble. Baseball scandals are depressing. There aren't as many heros as there use to be. When my friends and I ripped open packs, we wanted to be those guys. Donnie Baseball. Ken Griffey Jr. Jordan. Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Wayne Gretzky. Those guys are great role models. Unfortunately now, it's not the same.

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Posted By: tobacco-r-us

Better yet, will you be at Port Washington?

Joe Pelaez

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Posted By: jay behrens

Steve, I totally agree with you. I used to hate it when Topps would only put the person year and career totals on a card. I wanted to see everything. When they put minor league stats on, it was a huge bonus.

I still think the living set concept would be a winner.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Nick

Upper Deck came out with a set called PowerDeck that had a mini CD-ROM in each pack, normally featuring one player, with the player's picture and some stats on the non-play side of the CD. There were also 2 cards on cardstock in each pack, and it retailed for about $4.99 a pack. Donruss also came out with a smaller version of that, called CyberCards V.1 if I remember correctly. Both of these were at least 5 years ago. They didn't hold their value either. I picked some of the CD-ROM cards up recently in a dealer's dime box.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOE

1st thought was you; but I wasn't sure, I know too many "Joes".
Yes, I will be at Fort Washington (9/23-25) at my usual spot.



HAL

From your list I would choose ICE CREAM as the product to insert
BaseBall cards. It is certainly the most popular of the ones on
your list. To succeed, we need a proven nationwide brand.

In 1928 the Yuenglings Beer Co. switched to producing Ice Cream
(during Prohibition) and included BB cards as a premium. So,it
has been done before; and, my limited research indicates it was
quite successful here in Pennsylvania (Yuenglings' base); and,
throughout the Northeast.
And, as you probably know their Babe Ruth card was the key to
getting free ice cream. This added incentive is certainly more
powerful than "chase cards", "autographed" inserts, etc., etc.;
that have proven not too successful in the long run.

As a kid, I remember the Dixie Lid premiums featured by several
different local ice cream brands; but, I don't know how well
they succeeded.

Hal, I think you and I (and anyone else) are presented with
a great opportunity here. And, to quote the famous last line
from "Casablanca" (Bogart to Claude Rains)...."this could be
the start of a beautiful frienship"....Choose your favorite Ice
Cream brand.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Instead of "Ben and Jerry's" Ice Cream...

maybe we could call ours:

"Honus and Babe's" Ice Cream



or

"Hal & Ted's Excellent Adventure" !!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

Ben & Jerry's is too expensive in most areas and the quality
is not really there.

In the Northeast the most popular is FRIENDLY'S. It is a better
quality ice cream, it is reasonably priced, and besides it has
many franchised restaurants. Also, it is very available at the
supermarkets.

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Posted By: bob

I live just outside of Boston and have to disagree with you. I think Ben and Jerries is very good. Also Brigham's is much better than Friendlys (esp. their vanilla). Actually I think there are a number of mom and pop ice cream stores (in New England at least) that are better than Brighams and Friendlys. Except for vanilla. No one beats Brighams.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I wont argue with you.....different folks have different tastes.

You are right about the Mom & Pop places. In Pennsylvania
we have some old fashioned style parlors that have some
great homemade ice cream.
I will have to try Brighams next we are in your area. We drive
to Maine quite often to visit with my daughter and grandson.

Didn't Friendly's originate up in the Boston area ? My choice
for Friendly's is mainly because they are very widespread and
most people we know enjoy their ice cream very much.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Never had Friendly's but have heard good things about them. The best ice cream I've ever had is Blue Bell - I have a friend from Texas who brings some up to me whenever he visits because it isn't sold in Illinois. Their Birthday Cake ice cream is probably my favorite flavor...vanilla ice cream with pieces of chocolate cake, chocolate icing, and sprinkles.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

Nothing beats a watermelon Fribble on a hot summer day...

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Posted By: tobacco-r-us

I just love drinking Vintage ice cream, but I think we better start looking for a Co. with a good distribution for the cards, before the ice cream melts.

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Posted By: Bob

I believe Friendlys did originate in the Boston area. I guess I'm prejudiced torward Brighams because.

1. They are headquatered in my home town - Arlington MA
2. I worked there for four years.
3. They put out a Brighams Red Sox Card set in 81 which were Topps cards with the Brighams logo.

I you do stop by a Brighams I suggest a hot fudge sundae w/ vanilla ice cream.

Now back to vintage cards

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

As an old timer from Boston, Brighams and Bailys were the ice cream of choice. in the 50's and 60's Brighams expanded and Bailys did not and eventually died in the 80's. Friendlys started in Springfield in western Massachusetts in the 20's or 30's and started expanding in the 50's. Now they are into Florida. Second tier at best. Every small town arround Boston had a local place, in Natick it was Wallaces that was open about 6 months of the year. My favorate was half Black Rasberry and half Coffee. That was the best. Try to get a couple of these babies in each trip back. No cards though.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PETER and BOB

What makes Friendly's popular is not only their Fribbles but
their "Freebies". As you know they very often entice you to
buy their entrees by giving you a free ice cream sundae with
it.
As you both say the quality of their ice cream might be 2nd,
or perhaps 3rd rate; but, they really are good at marketing
their product.
Consider this....if they inserted a Johnny Damon, or Martinez,
or Varitek, or Ortiz cards with their ice cream products, don't
you think they might be more competive with Brighams in the
New England area?

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Posted By: Mark

Even with just two major companies, I seriously doubt the industry will see a big reduction in the number of sets produced. Both Topps and UD will be economically incentivized to produce many sets in hopes that one strikes a chord with each buyer. It's the same reason that Post and Kelloggs each produce 15+ varieties of cereal - shelf space. If Post only had one ceral, it might get two feet with of shelf space. By having 15+ brands of cereal, Post gets 30+ feet of shelf space and Kelloggs had that much less space. In college, they actually explained this us in most sophisiticated terminology, but I was too hung over from drinking one of the 15+ offerings from Anheuser-Busch for it to sink in long-term.