19th century " Holy Grail "

[GaryPassamonte]

We all know the 1952 Topps Mantle is considered the " Holy Grail " for post-war cards and the T206 Wagner fills the same role for pre-war cards. What card do you believe is or could turn into the " Holy Grail " of 19th century collecting or are there simply too many extreme rarities for any one card to stand alone?

[barrysloate]

Three that are worthy of consideration:

1) N172 Anson in Uniform
2) Just So Cy Young
3) Four Base Hits Mike Kelly

There are other rarities, but hard to surpass this trio.

[e107collector]

I would agree with Barry and say the 1893 Just So Tobacco Cy Young. To the best of my knowledge only 1 is known to exist. Does a board member own this card, or does anyone know of other examples that are out there?

Tony

[GaryPassamonte]

For a card to be a " Holy Grail " it would have to meet three criteria, in my opinion. It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible. The first two criteria are easily met, but the issue of availability is more difficult to reconcile. The card would have to be available enough to have widespread appeal. The Mantle and the Wagner are far from being the rarest cards in their category, but are available enough to be pursued by collectors. Does any 19th century card fit this bill?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

For a card to be a " Holy Grail " it would have to meet three criteria, in my opinion. It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible. The first two criteria are easily met, but the issue of availability is more difficult to reconcile. The card would have to be available enough to have widespread appeal. The Mantle and the Wagner are far from being the rarest cards in their category, but are available enough to be pursued by collectors. Does any 19th century card fit this bill?

The 1869 Peck and Snyder does meet the criteria if you are including a team card. If not...then I have to give it some more thought. Most 19th century cards have limited availability to start with....

[rman444]

Based on that criteria, I would say either the N162 Anson or King Kelly.

[barrysloate]

Gary- the 1869 Reds team card may be the only 19th century one to fit the criteria of being rare and historically important, and actually be attainable. If you want one you can get it (I know you already have).

Most of the others simply aren't. You can't put a Four Base Hits of Kelly or a Just So of Cy Young on your wantlist. It just won't happen.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

For a card to be a " Holy Grail " it would have to meet three criteria, in my opinion. It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible. The first two criteria are easily met, but the issue of availability is more difficult to reconcile. The card would have to be available enough to have widespread appeal. The Mantle and the Wagner are far from being the rarest cards in their category, but are available enough to be pursued by collectors. Does any 19th century card fit this bill?

If availability is one of the main criteria, it would have to be one of the major HOF players from the N28, N162 or N172 sets. The N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson or the N162 Goodwin Cap Anson are probably available enough to have widespread appeal.

[barrysloate]

Phil- the G & B Spalding is an excellent addition to the list. That one too is unique, I believe.

[aaroncc]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

For a card to be a " Holy Grail " it would have to meet three criteria, in my opinion. It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible. The first two criteria are easily met, but the issue of availability is more difficult to reconcile. The card would have to be available enough to have widespread appeal. The Mantle and the Wagner are far from being the rarest cards in their category, but are available enough to be pursued by collectors. Does any 19th century card fit this bill?

I would say the N172 Harry Wright would fit well in all 3 areas.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Three that are worthy of consideration:

1) N172 Anson in Uniform
2) Just So Cy Young
3) Four Base Hits Mike Kelly

There are other rarities, but hard to surpass this trio.

I think this list is pretty good. IN terms of importance I might feather my own nest and throw in the 1869 Peck and Snyder. It's hard to argue the significance of the undisputed first professional card. Great question, Gary....and it was nice chatting with you, for quite a while, at the National. We'll have to do it again!!

[barrysloate]

There is only one Just So Cy Young known, and it is owned by a board member. Of the three cards I cited, it would likely be the most valuable.

Leon's Peck and Snyder is extremely important, but not at the rarity level of the other three.

Population estimates: one Cy Young, two Mike Kellys, four Ansons (one is in the Burdick Collection), and maybe 15-25 1869 Reds.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Not really a card, but how about the 1840's photo of the NY Knickerbockers w/Alexander Cartwright?

[barrysloate]

That's a daguerreotype, and like all dags it is unique. Certainly a monumental photo, but not a card.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks, Barry, that's the word that I was looking for. I knew it wasn't an albumen photo.

[oldjudge]

Barry--There are a lot of oddities. Why didn't Ewing, one of the preeminent players of the day, have an 1887 Old Judge card? BTW, Brouthers, also a star, had only three poses.

The issue with Anson in Uniform may also be that Anson didn't like the card. Remember from the book that the card is a composite of Anson's head and Dalrymple's body. Maybe he didn't like this and had his card pulled. Who knows?

[barrysloate]

As I said, it's a bit of a mystery. I could see him not liking that pose.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here's the Four Base Hits King Kelly............

[benjulmag]

My opinion, P & S Creighton...for one main reason. That is the only card of his, period. And one of only two known photographic images of any kind. The other candidates are all incredible examples. And, as a practical matter, they are all impossible to obtain. But cards of Anson and Kelly (factoring other poses/issues) are easy to obtain. In regard to Spalding, there are a multitude of other cards that depict him in a team context. And in the solo context, though harder, there are at least two known cabinets/Cdv's.

[barrysloate]

Corey- over fifty posts and nobody thought of Creighton. Another worthy contender (and it's "grammar").

[oldjudge]

Corey--No doubt a great card but to be "The" 19th century card, the equivalent of the T206 Wagner. I would think the player should, at a minimum, be a HOFer. I don't believe that Creighton is. In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't he only play at the highest level for a few years? Your Young, now that's a different story.

[barrysloate]

Jay- he died at 21, so he didn't play too long period. But he was a star at 17.