Gone with the stain

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Fair enough. I guess you always seemed so full of piss and vinegar when it comes to card doctoring that you could chew nails and spit rust. But I guess at some point it probably starts to seem like a Sisyphean battle.

My enthusiasm was fueled by the expectation or at least hope that something finally was going to be done against some bad players. At some point playing Don Quixote is stupid lol.

[jchcollins]

Again, the whole thing just smacks so much of moot point to me. Even after a major scandal amongst graders / PWCC in 2020-21, we are back to business as usual. Stuff trumps all for the most part, assuming it's in a nice slab with a number grade. The graders aren't going after card doctors. The auction houses aren't going after card doctors. Those who would mobilize the wherewithal to go after them in the hobby simply don't exist in significant number. And whether or not what these folks are doing extends to "illegal" over and above just "immoral", the FBI and the federal government don't appear to be going after them either.

Seems the most we can do is talk about how bad / frustrating it all is. Repetitively.

[Exhibitman]

One thing no one seems to be talking about is that within our lifetimes, many of our cards will deteriorate to the point of no return unless they are properly conserved. That means de-acidified, cleaned of foreign materials, and stabilized. Most of our stuff was made using wood-based pulp that is rife with lignin and acids. Many 100-year-old strip cards, postcards and Exhibit cards are already quite brittle, and many prewar newsprint items are falling apart. I have boxing pieces that are nearly 200 years old and are fine because they were made with cotton rag paper, and I have thrown away wood-pulp based items that are falling apart after 100 years.

Is it going to be 'doctoring' if a collector takes steps to address these conditions with proper conservation techniques? Because if the answer is "yes", you better get ready to say goodbye to a lot of W cards, premiums and memorabilia.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

One thing no one seems to be talking about is that within our lifetimes, many of our cards will deteriorate to the point of no return unless they are properly conserved. That means de-acidified, cleaned of foreign materials, and stabilized. Most of our stuff was made using wood-based pulp that is rife with lignin and acids. Many 100-year-old strip cards, postcards and Exhibit cards are already quite brittle, and many prewar newsprint items are falling apart. I have boxing pieces that are nearly 200 years old and are fine because they were made with cotton rag paper, and I have thrown away wood-pulp based items that are falling apart after 100 years.

Is it going to be 'doctoring' if a collector takes steps to address these conditions with proper conservation techniques? Because if the answer is "yes", you better get ready to say goodbye to a lot of W cards, premiums and memorabilia.

To me doctoring is something done but not disclosed in order to deceive.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

One thing no one seems to be talking about is that within our lifetimes, many of our cards will deteriorate to the point of no return unless they are properly conserved. That means de-acidified, cleaned of foreign materials, and stabilized. Most of our stuff was made using wood-based pulp that is rife with lignin and acids. Many 100-year-old strip cards, postcards and Exhibit cards are already quite brittle, and many prewar newsprint items are falling apart. I have boxing pieces that are nearly 200 years old and are fine because they were made with cotton rag paper, and I have thrown away wood-pulp based items that are falling apart after 100 years.

Is it going to be 'doctoring' if a collector takes steps to address these conditions with proper conservation techniques? Because if the answer is "yes", you better get ready to say goodbye to a lot of W cards, premiums and memorabilia.

Adam -

Curious about what the solution is to preserve these items. I'm certainly not against preservation, especially preservation that is obvious and known to everyone, rather than performed to deceive.

But I'm also completely ignorant about what that would entail. How do you properly conserve that card without the cure being worse than the disease?

[Triton21]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'm sure many around here will have lots to say!

Particularly around the notion that it's appropriate to make changes to cards. Seems like we've had numberless debates over the range of acceptable activities, with a wide range of opinions. Most people seem to be sorta okay with soaking cards or using a nylon to take a gum stain off of a card. Maybe using a spoon to bend back a bent corner. But beyond that, it gets pretty contentious in a hurry. And many commentators also recommend disclosing any of these modifications to a potential buyer.

Having said that, from what I can tell, most people around here feel that the services provided by Gone with the Stain aren't appropriate for baseball cards. There have even been some posts casting a pox upon any cards subject to their services, hexing them to crumble into dust.

everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

[Triton21]

Originally Posted by G1911

The business is centered on altering cards for people to then sell as if they weren’t restored. Done with a wink of legitimacy of course, they aren’t doing the fraud part themselves directly, but they know damn well what their service is for.

Many will heavily frown on people altering cards. Gone with the Stain isn’t soaking in water to remove cards from a scrapbook.

Just out of curiosity since you know our business and how we do things how is it that we're removing cards from scrapbooks can you shed some light on our process and what we use if we're not using water? Since you supposedly have the answer already why don't you share to the world what you know.

[campyfan39]

*grabs popcorn

Originally Posted by Triton21

Just out of curiosity since you know our business and how we do things how is it that we're removing cards from scrapbooks can you shed some light on our process and what we use if we're not using water? Since you supposedly have the answer already why don't you share to the world what you know.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Triton21

everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

Truth, always a fan of your Dad!

Hatters gonna hat, and you do you.

We have all types of people on this forum, but remember, they will boot you if they want to, or feel you are advertising without paying.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Triton21

Just out of curiosity since you know our business and how we do things how is it that we're removing cards from scrapbooks can you shed some light on our process and what we use if we're not using water? Since you supposedly have the answer already why don't you share to the world what you know.

I am sure your firm has used water to soak an item out. What I am saying is that this is not all you do - using an example of something which is and has been considered benign by the general hobby for a very long time. Your own website, advertising and testimonials makes it extremely clear you are doing far more; that's what you are openly selling.

I stand by what I said. You cannot possibly not know that most of these cards are being worked on to get past graders and then sold without disclosure of the work done. This is the problem and criticism I am making (well, made, you are rather late). The wink and the nod is that your family doesn't commit the fraud, but provides the enabling the service. I have yet to see people selling cards with open and honest disclosure of your alterations and work, for some mysterious reason the minority popcorn gallery here consistently refuses to address.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Triton21

everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

I’m guessing that you’re new(ish), based on the small number of posts you’ve made to date. So welcome to the fun house!

If you’re looking for adventure, there’s a thread on the main page about how every slabbed card has a story, with a link to some videos showing how various cards have been treated to improve their appearance. I’m sure the group would love to hear your thoughts about the posts in that thread.

[campyfan39]

I am very interested in the debate and the opinions and conversations. For clarity, I haven't even removed wax stains with panty hose. Pushing a corner down with my finger is the only thing I have ever personally done with a card.

Originally Posted by G1911

I am sure your firm has used water to soak an item out. What I am saying is that this is not all you do - using an example of something which is and has been considered benign by the general hobby for a very long time. Your own website, advertising and testimonials makes it extremely clear you are doing far more; that's what you are openly selling.

I stand by what I said. You cannot possibly not know that most of these cards are being worked on to get past graders and then sold without disclosure of the work done. This is the problem and criticism I am making (well, made, you are rather late). The wink and the nod is that your family doesn't commit the fraud, but provides the enabling the service. I have yet to see people selling cards with open and honest disclosure of your alterations and work, for some mysterious reason the minority popcorn gallery here consistently refuses to address.

[Triton21]

Originally Posted by G1911

The business is centered on altering cards for people to then sell as if they weren’t restored. Done with a wink of legitimacy of course, they aren’t doing the fraud part themselves directly, but they know damn well what their service is for.

Many will heavily frown on people altering cards. Gone with the Stain isn’t soaking in water to remove cards from a scrapbook.

By all means can you please educate us all and tell us exactly what it is that you think we use for removing cards from scrapbooks?

[Triton21]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

Don’t mess with guys like this. They are basically in the business of altering cards to try and pass off as better for more money. Don’t think that they don’t ruin their fair share of not only cards but others reputations along the way for what they do. Steer clear if you want to keep your good name intact. Clear water soaking out of a scrapbook is not what they are all about.

So Rocky since you know so much about gone with the stain And what we supposedly do I would like you to educate us and the baseball card world exactly what it is that you think we do!?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Triton21

By all means can you please educate us all and tell us exactly what it is that you think we use for removing cards from scrapbooks?

You already did this lol. See post 60.