It is Sickening how badly PWCC Shill Bids!

[darwinbulldog]

Obviously if you don't bid more than you're willing to pay you won't have to pay more than you're willing to pay. The problem is that the prices we are willing to pay are, quite reasonably, a function of what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past. And what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past is a function of the prevalence of shilling in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Obviously if you don't bid more than you're willing to pay you won't have to pay more than you're willing to pay. The problem is that the prices we are willing to pay are, quite reasonably, a function of what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past. And what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past is a function of the prevalence of shilling in the hobby.

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

Add me to the list. I view shilling as a "hidden reserve" in every auction I participate in. I pay what I am comfortable paying, and I do not view the history of prices in the market as decided by a pure, free market -- and instead, only an approximation of what one person may have been willing to pay at a certain time for an item.

I do think shilling is an unfortunate, market distorting side effect of the historical baseball card valuation process. But, I do not think there really is anything to be done about it except discourage the practice by prosecuting offenders as they occasionally become identified through their own criminal ineptitude.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

So all cards in the hobby are now price gouged due to many years of shilling? So all cards should be priced at what they were before EBay or any auction house was invented? I really don't believe that is the case . And if this is the case then we have to make a decision on what we value a card at. Like I said originally not so hard to grasp.

[Exhibitman]

Perhaps the better formulation is that outlier prices are likely the result of shilling.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Perhaps the better formulation is that outlier prices are likely the result of shilling.

I also think the effects of just two buyers who really want a card..forms an outlier price versus the general public that creates a 'shilled' like historical price.... What is nice on ebay is you can see sometimes that a card was really bid up to a certain amount between 4-7 guys for example..but then the rest of the way was 2 guys..... when a winning bid is the result of 2 guys bidding up a card more than 50% of the value, using that past price as historical value is the same as using a shilled bid in my book

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I also think the effects of just two buyers who really want a card..forms an outlier price versus the general public that creates a 'shilled' like historical price.... What is nice on ebay is you can see sometimes that a card was really bid up to a certain amount between 4-7 guys for example..but then the rest of the way was 2 guys..... when a winning bid is the result of 2 guys bidding up a card more than 50% of the value, using that past price as historical value is the same as using a shilled bid in my book

I have been apart of many two person bidding wars. None of the auctions were shilled. It generally happens on low pop cards from sets that are competitive on the PSA set registry. I too look at the "pack" and use those bids as my baseline for value realizing that gap between the pack and our bids is not real value. Overtime the pack may move closer to the winning bid and if so then the real value has increased.

[jefferyepayne]

I now stay clear of any auction in which a bidder with multiple retractions OR has close to 0 feedback is involved. If PWCC won't adequately police these obvious shillers / crooks, I will. Somebody else can get taken.

jeff

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have been apart of many two person bidding wars. None of the auctions were shilled. It generally happens on low pop cards from sets that are competitive on the PSA set registry. I too look at the "pack" and use those bids as my baseline for value realizing that gap between the pack and our bids is not real value. Overtime the pack may move closer to the winning bid and if so then the real value has increased.

I like the term 'the pack'. I also have bid on a card and i see the same 2 people bidding on it on ebay past sales and when one wins the card, the other one snags the later card. Then on the third time around it sells for a lot cheaper. Obviously if its a POP 2 card that wont happen, but lets say it was for a Babe Ruth PSA 3 goudey card.. would be plenty of opportunities as long as its not being hoarded etc..

Iacard with worth what someone is willing to pay for it but historical prices with suspect bidding (not shilled but only interest between 2 bidders) above 'the pack' i would change that expression to what someone NOW would be willing to pay for it

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

So all cards in the hobby are now price gouged due to many years of shilling? So all cards should be priced at what they were before EBay or any auction house was invented? I really don't believe that is the case . And if this is the case then we have to make a decision on what we value a card at. Like I said originally not so hard to grasp.

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth.

I know you never said that,but if we are to believe that the current value of the cards we are bidding on have all been pre shilled( I coined this term all rights reserved on preshilled lol) by many years of shill bidding giving us a inflated current market price then what are they worth?

I still believe that a experienced collector can be the judge of a cards value they are in pursuit of.

I was bidding on a card last year in one of the auctions they had and I bid early just so it was on my radar. With half the time left the price reach was already more then I was willing to pay for that card in that condition. So I stopped bidding and the next week I found a better example for less( else where)

[Fballguy]

How does Probstein get to put his contact information in his auction listings? eBay doesn't let me do that. In fact I get warning messages about completing deals off eBay if I correspond too much with eBay members. I guess eBay is willing to look the other way if you're generating massive fee revenue for them.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

How does Probstein get to put his contact information in his auction listings? eBay doesn't let me do that. In fact I get warning messages about completing deals off eBay if I correspond too much with eBay members. I guess eBay is willing to look the other way if you're generating massive fee revenue for them.

According to eBay policy. This is Not Allowed:

"Posting or displaying contact information in a listing, including email, phone number, and mailing address, without the permission of eBay or except as required by law"

I guess he got permission.