Is this guy serious ??????

[Joshchisox08]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item5b087a4180

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Is this really that surprising? Every day there is a new stupid post about "omg is this a new dot!?" "Is this a ghost? Over print, print line, scratch, poop" etc etc etc. It never ends.

Hate the set because it seems like everyone tries to find a dumb mark or a dot of ink that didn't fully dry and try to sell it as a variation.

Most annoying card set in existence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Joshchisox08]

Brent maybe not just wanna state the obvious for everyone.

Hate the set you're breaking my heart lol. But at the same time good for you idk how you can deny loving the monster.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Brent maybe not just wanna state the obvious for everyone.

Hate the set you're breaking my heart lol. But at the same time good for you idk how you can deny loving the monster.

LOL sorry. I do like it...signed . Maybe I can find a dot or something and sell them for 5x its price.

Like I said before, it's very annoying how there are at least 5 posts a day about a new variation that just isn't. It's annoying. I don't go on here much anymore (other than the auto BST) mainly because of all the T206 stuff "variation" crap. I love learning about the printing layouts etc, but it's too much.

Maybe someone should start a new strictly T206 forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

LOL sorry. I do like it...signed . Maybe I can find a dot or something and sell them for 5x its price.

Like I said before, it's very annoying how there are at least 5 posts a day about a new variation that just isn't. It's annoying. I don't go on here much anymore (other than the auto BST) mainly because of all the T206 stuff "variation" crap. I love learning about the printing layouts etc, but it's too much.

Maybe someone should start a new strictly T206 forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is a good idea Brent. Sorry I added this I don't want to discourage you less from participating. (I'm being serious). I take it you like Goudey's I made an excel checklist of the Goudey set if you'd like one let me know I can send you a copy.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

That is a good idea Brent. Sorry I added this I don't want to discourage you less from participating. (I'm being serious). I take it you like Goudey's I made an excel checklist of the Goudey set if you'd like one let me know I can send you a copy.

I'd love to take a peak! Don't go after them other than signed hof ones but it's a great looking set!


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[pokerplyr80]

I don't hate the set by any means, and only own a few commons, but it does seem strange to me that variations that would be consider print defects or mis cuts in any other set go for massive premiums.

[steve B]

Ya know there's a whole sub forum for stuff that's been written on. Thank goodness, because there's like 5 posts a day about "is this writing real"

Who collects stuff with pen marks anyway?

Just kidding, sort of...........

Steve B

[FourStrikes]

checked out the listing with ONE EYE (the right one) CLOSED, and...while my peripheral vision may be limited when taking such a quick glance, I almost swear I SAW "OakF8"...

not trying to "flame" T-206 print variation / oddities collectors, but...I'm guessing there's a bazillion ways to "see" things that may (or may not) actually be there...

DS

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

checked out the listing with ONE EYE (the right one) CLOSED, and...while my peripheral vision may be limited when taking such a quick glance, I almost swear I SAW "OakF8"...

not trying to "flame" T-206 print variation / oddities collectors, but...I'm guessing there's a bazillion ways to "see" things that may (or may not) actually be there...

DS

You can see anything in that post the fact is that the E is present a tiny little eraser mark/paper loss if that's what it is you can see the bottom portion of the E is still present.

The seller obviously is marketing to Helen Keller.

[bobbyw8469]

PT barnum said it best.

[ALR-bishop]

Recurring print defects have achieved hobby stardom and big premiums in post war sets as well. The 58 Herrer, the 57 Bakep, and the 52 Campos black star come to mind

Hobby recognition through SCD, Beckett or The Registry, rather than self promotion is usually required. Most folks are totally uninterested in variations or recurring print defects, but some of us go a little cry over them . To each their own

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Is this really that surprising? Every day there is a new stupid post about "omg is this a new dot!?" "Is this a ghost? Over print, print line, scratch, poop" etc etc etc. It never ends.

Hate the set because it seems like everyone tries to find a dumb mark or a dot of ink that didn't fully dry and try to sell it as a variation.

Most annoying card set in existence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Speaking for myself ( and I think many other people who get involved in these discussions) most of us don't consider print defects a variation.
We take an interest in what you listed (minus "the poop") possibly helping us figure out a sheet layout or other areas related to the printing process.
I understand the people who have no interest at all in this, what I don't understand is all the negative comments about a group of people discussing this on a forum dedicated to vintage card collecting.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I understand the people who have no interest at all in this, what I don't understand is all the negative comments about a group of people discussing this on a forum dedicated to vintage card collecting.

I don't collect T206, and also find the set and the constant reaching for uniqueness annoying, but it's hard to argue with this.

I do, however, love the idea of a T206 board. Separating them out in the BST is the best change this board has had in a while....

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by conor912

I don't collect T206, and also find the set and the constant reaching for uniqueness annoying, but it's hard to argue with this.

I do, however, love the idea of a T206 board. Separating them out in the BST is the best change this board has had in a while....

I think I may start up a board and have some guys on here be mod's on it. The Monster has soooo many followers I think it could be beneficial for the hobby.


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[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Is this really that surprising? Every day there is a new stupid post about "omg is this a new dot!?" "Is this a ghost? Over print, print line, scratch, poop" etc etc etc. It never ends.

Hate the set because it seems like everyone tries to find a dumb mark or a dot of ink that didn't fully dry and try to sell it as a variation.

Most annoying card set in existence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The T206 error guys could argue that there are more stupid posts about other things here. Not sure if they would win, but it would be close.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The T206 error guys could argue that there are more stupid posts about other things here. Not sure if they would win, but it would be close.

Again this seems sidetracked. The point was that this is NOT an error at all. And someone being an @hole pretending it's an error. You can most definitely see the E.

[Kevin.Shenker]

There are enough of these to say that oakfs is a legit caption issue. I have seen a dozen of them.

Whether or not you like that or even want to collect it or respect it I think, is an entirely different issue.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Again this seems sidetracked. The point was that this is NOT an error at all. And someone being an @hole pretending it's an error. You can most definitely see the E.

Josh,

I agree with you it's not an error or variation but the nodgrass, Murr'y, Shappe, or Dopner aren't either but they bring huge premiums because
they were listed as such in pricing catalogs years ago and are still listed in some of them today.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item5b087a4180

If it gets in a catalog the price will increase. Hoard while you can .

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Leon

If it gets in a catalog the price will increase. Hoard while you can .

That's the problem Leon, I blame the catalogs for the ridiculous prices that the
cataloged versions bring not the sellers who hype similar examples that aren't
listed.

It has been proven that the Shappe, nodgrass, Murr'y ect.... are nothing
more than printing defects. There are a large number of un-cataloged
versions of these throughout the set. They need to either remove the ones
they have listed (which is what I think they should do) or start listing all
of them in the catalogs.

Here's a Davis that's missing a leg on the R in AMER, and another one
that sold on ebay recently, I have seen at least a dozen of these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...p2047675.l2557

[packs]

You've created this beast yourselves and I hope you're all happy now.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by packs

You've created this beast yourselves and I hope you're all happy now.

Is that the most intelligent sarcastic comment you could come up with?

These cards were listed in the catalogs long before " the crazy T206 crowd
that analyzes everything" grew. The analysis of cards like this is what
has proven they are nothing more than a print defect.

I have many cards that I've purchased for research purposes that I know
I'm probably going to lose money on when I sell them and I knew that
when I bought them.

I started collecting T206 cards on a small scale 13 years ago, there were small
shows in our area and while there may have been a handful of pre war cards at some of them I never noticed.
Then I went to a national and I was in awe of how many cards there were that were close to or over 100 years old. One
of the sellers had boxes full of T206 cards (I think they were $8-$12) so I
purchased one and I couldn't get over how cool it was to own a card that old
for close to the price of a pack of new cards.

The same thing drives me in the research I do, I think it's cool to
try and figure out how they were printed over 100 years ago and value has
absolutely nothing to do with it.


I continued collecting them moderately for ten years and one day Tim Cathey
directed me here. Because of the amount of comments similar to yours I wouldn't do the same.

[ALR-bishop]

I do not collect T 206, but for example the Topps 58 Herrer, missing or with only a partial e commands a large premium. It is a simple,scarce but recurring print defect that long ago received hobby recognition.

In the years before he retired Bob Lemke was narrowing his definition of a variation that would be listed in the SCD Standard Catalog. He seemed to require that the difference in the card be a result of an intentional change in the card by the manufacturer. But in some cases it is hard to tell if a recurring print defect was corrected, or simply occurred unintentionally in the printing process for some period of time. And with ebay and internet scans, there has been an explosion in the discovery of "variant" cards...cards that differ from their typical counterpart in some way, intended or not

Since Bob retired it is harder and a bit haphazard getting any new "variation" listed in SCD. Not sure about Beckett. I used to think PSA took it's cue from listings in SCD or Beckett, but not long back they added a 61 Ron Fairly with an errant green smudge in the baseball on the back of the card to their master set list. Not sure if they got that from Beckett. It did not come from SCD. That defect exists on many 61 cards. It would appear that persistence in pursuing the recognition of a variation can pay off, and as Leon mentioned, there is an economic payoff if you succeed.

I personally collect any variation recognized by SCD, Beckett or PSA for my sets. I also collect recurring print defects, whether intentionally corrected or not, because I find such "variant" cards interesting. But I just collect them. I do not sell them to others or try to "sell" them to the catalogs or PSA.

To each their own

[packs]

Well Pat I didn't mean to insult you. All I meant was the price of this card is insane because people drive it up looking for any excuse to call something new or a scrap or a variation, when all you've got is a slightly dinged common. Anyway, my true point was that despite you saying that this set's printing is interesting to study, the fact is these cards and their popularity are mostly driven by financial interest over methodical ones. People just want to make a quick buck and over zealous collectors have turned this niche market into a cash grab.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Again this seems sidetracked. The point was that this is NOT an error at all. And someone being an @hole pretending it's an error. You can most definitely see the E.

How is responding directly to another member's post "sidetracked"? This isn't an encyclopedia - it's a discussion forum.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Runscott

How is responding directly to another member's post "sidetracked"? This isn't an encyclopedia - it's a discussion forum.

Because the post was to discuss forgery or falsely labeling a card on eBay, not how people dislike all the variations of T206 and how those who like them/collect them are crazy ..............

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Because the post was to discuss forgery or falsely labeling a card on eBay, not how people dislike all the variations of T206 and how those who like them/collect them are crazy ..............

Josh, if you would - please monitor all of my posts and make sure I am discussing things correctly on the internet. I would hate to be the one guy who is fvcking everything up.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Josh, if you would - please monitor all of my posts and make sure I am discussing things correctly on the internet. I would hate to be the one guy who is fvcking everything up.

I was simply stating the fact and don't remember singling you out at all. Sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused you.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Josh, if you would - please monitor all of my posts and make sure I am discussing things correctly on the internet. I would hate to be the one guy who is fvcking everything up.

No offense, but if you are going to be talking smack, shouldn't your real name be out there for all to see?? Leon??

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

No offense, but if you are going to be talking smack, shouldn't your real name be out there for all to see?? Leon??

It's in his signature at the bottom.

[Runscott]

I responded to "smack". But thanks Bobby - it's good to know we have at least two junior moderator wannabes auditioning in this thread.

I will get my name in my byline as soon as I get home sir

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

It's in his signature at the bottom.

Thanks - couldn't see it from my Tapatalk version.

Scott <=== tries to obey the law

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

No offense, but if you are going to be talking smack, shouldn't your real name be out there for all to see?? Leon??

The purpose of the name rules are for people to stand behind what they say and let members know who is saying things about them. It is not a "technical" rule. Scott (hey Scott) has his website linked and it is easy to click on to find out his identity. Thanks

[steve B]

Since we're sort of back on track, here's my take on varieties etc. It's based on how other hobbies approach similar topics and might only work for me.

I prefer the term variety - It's used in another hobby of mine and there refers to a difference on the plate intentional or not. Some are catalog listed, some aren't. Some are expensive, some aren't. The catalogs list most of the major ones, and occasionally some minor ones. They even list some that were added in the 1930's based on very questionable info and the item may not exist. Until someone like me finds it.

I don't specifically collect the varieties on T206. If I have a choice of a nice card or one in lesser condition but with a small variety I'll probably go with the nicer one. If everything is equal I might take the variety.

I enjoy the puzzle of figuring out what they are and what if anything they can tell us about the production process.
But with -by my sort of informed estimate - at least 24 identifiable but nearly identical varieties for most poses in the set (And at least 8 for ALL of them) And with this sort of caption flaw being fairly common, attempting to collect them would be almost entirely insane. Speaking of caption flaws in general, the card posted is probably either paper loss or something stuck to the front, but there is probably a version very similar out there.

Do I think that ANY of the varieties should carry a premium? A qualified NO.
I do believe there will be some that should, but there needs to be a lot more information to be sure, and none of us is there as far as I know. I don't think we're even there as a group, and it's a pretty small group.

I also don't believe that anyone should feel they have to collect them to have the "complete" set. In the other hobbies that have similar things most collectors simply ignore the varieties.

And that makes me very happy some days.

The stray marks on this indicate a poorly erased image of a different stamp on the plate. Something called a foreign entry. Catalog listed, at something over $2k and only about 50-55 were sold with the specimen overprint (And only 91 of the one without the overprint so both are more rare than the upside down airplane stamp )- the normal one is usually around $25 with a catalog value around $50. I was really really happy to find this being sold as the normal one


Steve B

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I responded to "smack". But thanks Bobby - it's good to know we have at least two junior moderator wannabes auditioning in this thread.

I will get my name in my byline as soon as I get home sir

Where did I start to talk smack ???

Feeling a little confused here........

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Where did I start to talk smack ???

Feeling a little confused here........

Forget moderation attempts and go for vintage card discussions - you might be more confused, but it will at least be enjoyable.

I'll start by thanking Steve for his usual well-thought-out, based-on-immense-knowledge, post. Seriously, Steve - I always enjoy your thoughts on this sort of thing, as it comes from a printing background.

[ALR-bishop]

+ 1 on Steve

[steve B]

Thanks guys .

The background is more than just printing, I am or have been into a number of hobbies at different levels for longer than I like to think about. Some mainstream, some not.
There's also a decade or so doing machinery repairs with a place that didn't specialize. So I worked on stuff like a 1930's extrusion press and a machine that ground telescope lenses. Talk about huge differences!

Coins, Stamps, cards of course, Old bottles, telephone insulators, the usual rocks and shells most kids collect. Old bicycles and the stuff related to them. Cars -briefly, it's too darn hard to fix them while needing to drive them. Old computers and video games, general ephemera............Yeah, pretty much collect whatever catches my eye.

It's fascinating how most people in different hobbies look at things.
Oddly the card hobby is sort of in the middle when it comes to this sort of stuff. Stamps can get totally insane, coins has headed more that way. The old bike guys won't buy even a very rare bike unless they can ride it and some are super fussy about the size. I don't think I ever saw anything about differences in bottles at all. But it has been a long time for those. once every few years I'll run across one that just looks nice to me and is cheap but I haven't really followed it.

Of course the stamp and coin folks have well over a hundred years headstart on us.

Steve B

[Pat R]

[QUOTE=Pat R;1454583]That's the problem Leon, I blame the catalogs for the ridiculous prices that the
cataloged versions bring not the sellers who hype similar examples that aren't listed


The Pfeffer in the REA auction is a perfect example of this. Recently listed as
a new variation in Beckett and a $100 card sells for $2650.00 with the BP.




http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=37731