My B/S/T Live Auction Complaint

[vintagetoppsguy]

Recently there was a T206 Titus for sale in the Live Auction section of the B/S/T (very nice card BTW and congrats to the winner). The minimum bid was $40.

The first bidder opened it up with a bid of $75 ($35 more than the minimum). The next bidder stepped up and bid $100 ($25 more than the previous bidder). The next two bidders also jumped it in $25 increments, bringing it up to $150. All these bidders really stepped up to the plate with their bids.

Next, someone comes along and bids $151, just $1 over the previous bidder when the increments thus far had been $25. One dollar? Seriously? I'm not trying to call out the bidder, but I see this all the time in the Live Auctions. If this were a real auction and the bidding was going in $25 increments and someone bid $1 over the previous bidder, he would probably be laughed at and not taken seriously.

I realize that the bidding is going to slow down once the card starts to reach it's fair market price, but to bid $1 over the previous bid when the previous bidders had all been bidding in $25 increments is very petty IMO. It irritates me when I'm bidding on something and I jump the next guy by $10, $20 or more and some shmuck comes along and outbids me by $1. Does this bother anybody else (especially after you made quite a jump over the previous bidder) or is it just me?

Ok, rant over. Carry on.

[thecatspajamas]

Couldn't the OP just state a minimum bid increment for his auction?

[Exhibitman]

Of course he could...but what fun would that be?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Like the auction in Oklahoma -- "and two bits."

[coolshemp]

I am the OP of the Titus auction. I am happy that people had an interest and made some bids. That being said, I probably should have been more specific about the increments of the bidding. Technically, someone could win by a penny if that bid came in under the allotted timeframe. The one dollar outbidding didn't upset me as a seller, but would anger me as a buyer. I currently have another card listed, and I will see how that one goes before I proceed with more auctions.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Recently there was a T206 Titus for sale in the Live Auction section of the B/S/T (very nice card BTW and congrats to the winner). The minimum bid was $40.

The first bidder opened it up with a bid of $75 ($35 more than the minimum). The next bidder stepped up and bid $100 ($25 more than the previous bidder). The next two bidders also jumped it in $25 increments, bringing it up to $150. All these bidders really stepped up to the plate with their bids.

Next, someone comes along and bids $151, just $1 over the previous bidder when the increments thus far had been $25. One dollar? Seriously? I'm not trying to call out the bidder, but I see this all the time in the Live Auctions. If this were a real auction and the bidding was going in $25 increments and someone bid $1 over the previous bidder, he would probably be laughed at and not taken seriously.

I realize that the bidding is going to slow down once the card starts to reach it's fair market price, but to bid $1 over the previous bid when the previous bidders had all been bidding in $25 increments is very petty IMO. It irritates me when I'm bidding on something and I jump the next guy by $10, $20 or more and some shmuck comes along and outbids me by $1. Does this bother anybody else (especially after you made quite a jump over the previous bidder) or is it just me?

Ok, rant over. Carry on.

No bidding rules bid what you want to.

Joe

[SMPEP]

Did the person who got overbid by $1 not have a chance to bid another $1 over the other bid?

The guy bidding $1 more took a chance.

Sometimes those payoff. Sometimes they don't.

Think the guy going $1 more would have been pissed if he lost by $1?

Cheers,
Patrick

[LEHR]

IMO if there are no set bidding rules in the auction then all is fair.

[drcy]

After reading the first two paragraphs, I was expecting the complaint to be something about the increments being too large.

Good plot twist.

[frankbmd]

Auction rules and formats at the discretion of the seller seem appropriate. I do understand the complaint and for higher valued items an appropriate incremental bid should be specified.

I have tinkered with the idea of allowing a secret (via PM) max bid option so that the auction would allow bidders not to be available at the end of the auction, which is not the norm here. One would have to have confidence in the seller, in this case me, for this to work. I also think that transparency of all bids after the auction is over would be helpful, so everyone could see how they won or lost. The seller would have to be available to post incremental bids for the max bidders particularly toward the end of the auction. This would eliminate the possibility of a $1 overbid sniping a max bidder toward the end of the auction. There would of course have to be an understanding that a single seller would not be able to handle bids with the speed of auction house or EBay software, but all bids would be timed and the true winner could be determined, with perhaps some time delay and when all the bidding is disclosed, it would be obvious to all.

If this post generates any interest, I would be happy to host such an auction of a card of some value to see how it works, both for the bidders and for me. Obviously it will require a bit more time on the sellers part and all sellers will not be interested in doing it this way, but some others might.

Let me know what you think, either here or by PM.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

No bidding rules bid what you want to.

Joe

Understood. However, there are many unspoken rules in the B/S/T - just proper B/S/T etiquette. In this particular auction, I wasn't a bidder so it really doesn't affect me.

However, if I were bidding and I jumped the previous bidder by $25, and then someone came along and jumped me by $1, I would think it was discourteous and rude.

As I also said, that crap would fly in a regular auction. The auctioneer would probably give them a ridiculous look and probably wouldn't even acknowledge their bid.

[Sean1125]

I have not read anything past the first post.

I think as long as the auction rules are followed that is fine. If it personally irks you it is just that.

S

[drcy]

Oh, it's an unspoken rule. That must be why I've never heard it.

I don't know what it's like in Texas, but where I come from it's considered showoffy to bid too large an increment. A $25 bid increment from one of my church members would be quite the scandal.

[Tao_Moko]

I don't see an issue. It's not that he bid $1, he bid $1 higher than the previous bidder. The Titus could have had a $10 increment, but it's not that big of a card so I would have done the same as the OP.

[wolf441]

I can definitely see both sides of the argument here. As a seller on the B/S/T auction section, I try to keep the bid increments low ($1) to encourage more people to join in the bidding. But I am generally selling lower priced items in this space.

I think the issue with the SGC 40 Titus is that it sort of straddles the line in terms of pricing. It's a mid grade T206 common that, because of the perceived scarity (due to hoarding, mustache, etc...), carries a premium. If I was the seller, I probably would have still kept the bid increments to $1.

That said, I've never thought of that decision in terms of how it might anger the potential buyers. As you said, at a normal auction, a one dollar bid increase would be laughed at by the auctioneer. That's not the case if the rules state specifically that this is the bid increment.

I placed the opening bid of $75 ($35 over minimum) because that's what I personally would pay for the card. I know it is worth more and I already own a lower graded copy, but that was my price point and I figured why waste time bouncing between $40 and $75. Once it went higher, I was out of the running. And I'm glad that bidders moved it quickly up in price so that the thread didn't have 50 posts bidding the card up incrementally.

But once the card got close to its ceiling, I don't see really see an issue with people using the stated minimum bid to jump into the lead. Should the final bidder at two minutes prior to close spend an extra $25 on the card just so not to insult other bidders? There was also the chance that someone else could have jumped in and out bid him in the last minute as well.

B/S/T auctions aren't perfect, but I think they are fun and it's nice to see some cool cards get put up for bid. The one thing about ebay is that you can put in a large max bid, but not have to pay that amount unless another bidder brings the price up to that max. That is not possible on the B/S/T auction section (although Frank's suggestion would work in this situation).

Sorry for the long post, I was just thinking about the situation and had about five changes of heart while reading the thread. Happy bidding!

[Econteachert205]

When I want something I watch it like a hawk so a one dollar overbid wouldn't bother me really. I do think it's a good idea for the auction to have defined increments though.

[ALR-bishop]

Is there some place one can get access to the unwritten rules

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rules or not, I agree with David here, I think it was tacky. By the logic of the people defending it, it would have been fine to raise the bid by one cent.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Is there some place one can get access to the unwritten rules

They are writ in invisible ink deep in the bowels of the forge at Mordor.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Rules or not, I agree with David here, I think it was tacky. By the logic of the people defending it, it would have been fine to raise the bid by one cent.

I think David it being extremely tacky. Not his auction and didn't even bid on it but on here crying about it for no reason.

Yes unless there was a rule against it a one cent raise is ok.

Are there any other unwritten rules I should know about?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Rules or not, I agree with David here, I think it was tacky. By the logic of the people defending it, it would have been fine to raise the bid by one cent.

I disagree. The beauty of our BST is there really are no board rules to speak of. There are no unwritten rules and if there were no increments specified then 1 cent bids would be fine. As far as starting this thread and ranting, that is fine too.

[CardboardCollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Recently there was a T206 Titus for sale in the Live Auction section of the B/S/T (very nice card BTW and congrats to the winner). The minimum bid was $40.

The first bidder opened it up with a bid of $75 ($35 more than the minimum). The next bidder stepped up and bid $100 ($25 more than the previous bidder). The next two bidders also jumped it in $25 increments, bringing it up to $150. All these bidders really stepped up to the plate with their bids.

Next, someone comes along and bids $151, just $1 over the previous bidder when the increments thus far had been $25. One dollar? Seriously? I'm not trying to call out the bidder, but I see this all the time in the Live Auctions. If this were a real auction and the bidding was going in $25 increments and someone bid $1 over the previous bidder, he would probably be laughed at and not taken seriously.

I realize that the bidding is going to slow down once the card starts to reach it's fair market price, but to bid $1 over the previous bid when the previous bidders had all been bidding in $25 increments is very petty IMO. It irritates me when I'm bidding on something and I jump the next guy by $10, $20 or more and some shmuck comes along and outbids me by $1. Does this bother anybody else (especially after you made quite a jump over the previous bidder) or is it just me?

Ok, rant over. Carry on.

-1 (minus one)

I like the flexibility of the BST live auctions. The seller gets to state their own rules. The bidder works within those rules. If the seller has not stated an opening bid or increments, the bidder can use that in any manner they choose.

It sounds like you have a bit of sour grapes to me.

Dean

[Wildfireschulte]

As a frequent seller on BST auction threads, I've got no issue with any bid in whole dollar amounts (partial dollars are kind of obnoxious). To me, selling on this site is all about fun, not hoping that some dummy will over-pay for your card. Most of us are just moving either off-condition stuff or cards that no longer fit in our collection - and hopefully a fellow member can fill a hole in theirs. For example, I never do shows anymore, but if I did, I would have to haul the E91's that I currently have listed from show to show, and would eventually sell them one by one. Instead, a few of our members can pick up some 100 year old cards from their favorite team without worry about authenticity, grades, shipping, nasty eBay messages... Also, and most importantly, any bid has the added benefit of bumping my auction above all of Fred's - which is nice.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Leon

As far as starting this thread and ranting, that is fine too.

+1. I think that this thread is very interesting. Like I said, I always list my auctions with bid increments of $1. I never considered that buyers might consider that bad form. I really think that this was a one-off issue because of the item up for bid.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Leon

I disagree. The beauty of our BST is there really are no board rules to speak of. There are no unwritten rules and if there were no increments specified then 1 cent bids would be fine. As far as starting this thread and ranting, that is fine too.

I agree with Leon. As i stated, setting your own terms for your auction should not be compromised by a list of rules. Hopefully sellers will consider all aspects of their auction rules before posting in the future as a result of this thread. Being able to sell freely off eBay is an opportunity we should cherish and not destroy.

[vintagetoppsguy]

It's not really about rules. I'm not asking for any new rules. As another poster said, it's up to the seller to state any rules.

For those that don't have a problem with it, let me ask you a question. Let's say I had 3 different raw cards in 3 separate live auctions. I charge $3.50 shipping on each one. You win all 3 and I send you an invoice for your winning total + $10.50 for shipping for the 3 raw cards. Even though I didn't state that I would combine shipping, wouldn't you kind of expect it even though it wasn't in the rules?

Again, it's not about rules, it's about doing the right thing. Do we need rules to do the right thing?

[bobbyw8469]

David, I don't have a problem with the dollar increment. Ebay would let you raise it by a dollar. Just because the previous guys jumped it up so much doesn't compel me to follow suit.

[SMPEP]

David - if someone bids one cent more than you before the auctions ends ... you can always bid one cent more than them.

And if someone charged you shipping like that .. it's your own dumb fault for not asking.

Caveat Emptor. Take responsibility for your own decisions.

[Huysmans]

Hurt feelings?? Are we forgetting we're all big boys here? Leave your feelings and emotions at the door. And has everyone forgotten what a true auction is? The item should go to the HIGHEST bidder....period. I don't care if its by one cent or a million dollars. Plus, why would someone be offended by small increments? Especially a buyer?? If the bid is raised by ONLY a dollar, then you can keep bidding without hurting the bank. Buyers should be more concerned with HUGE bidding increments, those can quickly make you SOL! 😎
Again, just my opinion. Have a great day collecting!

[1952boyntoncollector]

any new bid gives additional 5 minutes...I don't think people will keep waiting 5 mins to bid 1 cent..

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

any new bid gives additional 5 minutes...I don't think people will keep waiting 5 mins to bid 1 cent..

So people would sooner pay a lot more than wait 5 minutes? Not me.

[Mdmtx]

It is obviously impossible to please everyone. Earlier thread auctions have too big of increment. This thread bid increments too small and not uniform.

It all seems pretty petty. Seems like a lot of people just like to complain and try to modify all others to think and behave just like them. Good luck with that.

I have participated in live auctions of heavy machinery and seen the auctioneer accept $50 bid on $100,000.00 piece of machinery because that person was a good customer.

The moment we were expected to succumb to unwritten rules is the moment that political correctness and other personal freedoms were bypassed in our current society. As was pointed out earlier, the seller gets benefit of additional money(regardless of amount), a bump, Daddy War Bucks (the high increment bidder) is now out and may jump the bid again. The buyer gets a benefit because he can reevaluate his bid level and decide if he wants to bid again with very little added cost.

To consider this an insult to someone is insulting in itself.

Mark Medlin

[iwantitiwinit]

In my opinion small increments are fine and are the more intelligent way to bid. Why would I want to increase my bid 25 when I might be able to purchase the card for anywhere from 1 to 24 dollars cheaper if I bid in $1 increments. Likewise, I wouldn't be offended if I bid $25 more than the prior bid and someone upped me by a buck. More power to them.

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

In my opinion small increments are fine and are the more intelligent way to bid. Why would I want to increase my bid 25 when I might be able to purchase the card for anywhere from 1 to 24 dollars cheaper if I bid in $1 increments. Likewise, I wouldn't be offended if I bid $25 more than the prior bid and someone upped me by a buck. More power to them.

Exactly! No increment rules in the OP, then $1 is fine. It's like the idiots who go to a strip club throwing down $20's and $50's...they're not seeing anything I don't see when I throw down a $1.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Exactly! No increment rules in the OP, then $1 is fine. It's like the idiots who go to a strip club throwing down $20's and $50's...they're not seeing anything I don't see when I throw down a $1.

Ha! Well said.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Exactly! No increment rules in the OP, then $1 is fine. It's like the idiots who go to a strip club throwing down $20's and $50's...they're not seeing anything I don't see when I throw down a $1.

Yeah, but they get their Wagz lapped while you're stuck with a Wee Willie (Sorry, someone has to say it).

[GoldenAge50s]

Many interesting comments for sure. As many of you know, I have been listing 2-3 items a week in the Auction section for several months now and haven't put any bid increments in at all because so far it's never been a problem--Everyone seems to bid $1-$2 or more higher and that has been fine.

I do think I will request an even $1 increment (or more, depending on item value) in the future just to prevent someone from going .01 cent more, for example, and creating a hard feeling for the prior bid leader. (Personally I think a tiny .01 or .25 cent bid is not really being fair to the prior Bidder)

I also must say that EVERY SINGLE person who has bought from me has been a great-fun experience & is FAR MORE satisfying than selling on EBay because of the personal connections I have made.

I could mention names but the list of fine Net54 Buyers is waaaaayy too long!

[Leon]

Concerning Paul's comment above, We're going downhill quickly.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's not really about rules. I'm not asking for any new rules. As another poster said, it's up to the seller to state any rules.

For those that don't have a problem with it, let me ask you a question. Let's say I had 3 different raw cards in 3 separate live auctions. I charge $3.50 shipping on each one. You win all 3 and I send you an invoice for your winning total + $10.50 for shipping for the 3 raw cards. Even though I didn't state that I would combine shipping, wouldn't you kind of expect it even though it wasn't in the rules?

Again, it's not about rules, it's about doing the right thing. Do we need rules to do the right thing?

Your example only applies if there is a consensus that outbidding another member by $1 is wrong, which there isn't. I think everyone would agree that failing to combine shipping, in your proposed scenario, would be in poor taste.

[thenavarro]

Sounds to me like the guy paid 99 cents too much. (but, perhaps not, someone else might have been a player between 150.02 and 150.99

Originally Posted by thenavarro

Sounds to me like the guy paid 99 cents too much. (but, perhaps not, someone else might have been a player between 150.02 and 150.99

The winner bid $203, outpacing my runner-up bid of $188.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Leon

Concerning Paul's comment above, We're going downhill quickly.

Okay, I will say something constructive, having sold on the BST for over a year now, mostly in the Live Auction section:

The Titus auction was a bit of an anomaly, with all the attention surrounding the card lately. I think many potential buyers like their bidding ducks in a row -as we are used to it -- and if otherwise, maybe a few will get slightly bent out of shape. However, I've never heard back from the few auctions I've had that went out of expected sequence.

I have had many a winner, regardless of others' bidding patterns, swoop in and nab an auction for a buck or two. I never hear a peep from underbidders regardless of the amounts of their bid.

What is the difference if all bid amounts in a given auction are sequenced in an order from low to higher as the auction progresses, as opposed to being in staggered amounts throughout? The winner at the end is paying a $1 to pick up the tab, or said otherwise, drawing a deuce from his hand to take the pot.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

So people would sooner pay a lot more than wait 5 minutes? Not me.

keep waiting 5 mins and keep adding a cent..it will get old real fast

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

keep waiting 5 mins and keep adding a cent..it will get old real fast

The moderators almost never interfere (never) but would stop anyone from doing something completely disingenuous on the board. It would get old until I or another moderator saw, or were alerted, to that scenario. This isn't feebay. I think it would be handled quickly. I might add that we get alerted to almost everything. That is one of the great things about this board. Our members are very self policing. Thanks again to all of our members for helping to keep this as safe of a place as anywhere. And it is always, always Caveat Emptor, Buyer Beware on our board.

[clydepepper]

I have tried to remember to include bidding increments when posting to B/S/T as that is what I am most comfortable with and what I believe is the fair thing to do. However, I have accepted bids past the assigned increment as I see that as the bidder's choice (to potentially throw some money away because max bid is not included).

I believe all bidders should have the choice to overbid within any constrains the seller sets forth. There is usually an equal number of bidders with buyers' regret as there are runner-ups. Such is the nature of the beast.

Two points that separate us at Net54 are that you can rant and be heard and we are more than just OP names, we are a good bunch of guys with high standards...at least, that has been my experience so far.

Happy Holidays!
-Raymond

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

keep waiting 5 mins and keep adding a cent..it will get old real fast

Even better! Bidders like you will bow out, and I'll get the item CHEAPER. Which I believe is the goal of every smart consumer on earth my friend. Sooo any auctions your current!y bidding in?? 😜
....I'm teasing of course!

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Rules or not, I agree with David here, I think it was tacky. By the logic of the people defending it, it would have been fine to raise the bid by one cent.

If there are no written auction guidelines then I wouldn't complain if I was the one who lost by one cent. If there are no rules then how is bidding one dollar or even one cent not considered fair? I just don't understand the complaint since there were clearly no written rules. It doesn't matter if everyone else was bumping $25-$50 a pop, if I thought I could win an item for $1 more than the last bid then my bid would be the current bid +$1!

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's not really about rules. I'm not asking for any new rules. As another poster said, it's up to the seller to state any rules.

For those that don't have a problem with it, let me ask you a question. Let's say I had 3 different raw cards in 3 separate live auctions. I charge $3.50 shipping on each one. You win all 3 and I send you an invoice for your winning total + $10.50 for shipping for the 3 raw cards. Even though I didn't state that I would combine shipping, wouldn't you kind of expect it even though it wasn't in the rules?

Again, it's not about rules, it's about doing the right thing. Do we need rules to do the right thing?

If I were expecting combined shipping I'd have emailed to confirm that you do in fact offer combined shipping before I bid. Kind of like compairing apples and
oranges if you ask me. But I do understand the point you're trying to make. I don't agree but I understand.

[GoldenAge50s]

However, I have accepted bids past the assigned increment as I see that as the bidder's choice

Re: To clarify Raymond's quote above (if he misunderstood MY post)--

When I stated I might install $1 increments, I probably should have said "$1 MINIMUM increments", as, of course, anyone is free to bid in as LARGE an amount as they want @ anytime.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

However, I have accepted bids past the assigned increment as I see that as the bidder's choice

Re: To clarify Raymond's quote above (if he misunderstood MY post)--

When I stated I might install $1 increments, I probably should have said "$1 MINIMUM increments", as, of course, anyone is free to bid in as LARGE an amount as they want @ anytime.

Fred- I did not have your post in mind when I mentioned $1 increments. However, I think that the idea of a MINIMUM $1 increment covers all and that is what you will see in all my future sale posts.

Even though our illustrious leader is okay with penny bids, I think one sawbuck is a sound incremental unit for bids. I do, however, appreciate and applaud Leon's desire to allow as much responsible freedom as possible with the B/S/T thread.