Shanus-REA suit

[Orioles1954]

Is shill bidding relegated to only "house owned" lots? As a consignor, would you "turn the other cheek" if you figured a house was shilling in your favor?

[calvindog]

James -- I mean Captain Obvious -- why do you think there is so much love still on this board for certain auction houses which are obviously crooked? Why do you think I took such a beating 5 years ago for proclaiming that Mastro was crooked?

[Exhibitman]

Does anyone know why it is not possible (or is it possible) to set up a snipe service for auction houses? I use auctionstealer for Ebay whenever there is something I want badly and most of the time I get the item for a fraction of my max. Is there a technical reason why a similar set-up would not work for an auction house? Perhaps the overtime periods?

[Orioles1954]

Sorry Jeff, it takes some of us longer. On consignor items, do you think shilling is/was done upon request or without their knowledge or both?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Sorry Jeff, it takes some of us longer. On consignor items, do you think shilling is/was done upon request or without their knowledge or both?

You'd have to ask Doug Allen that question. I could answer but I'd hate to step on his toes in an area of which he's more familiar.

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Does anyone know why it is not possible (or is it possible) to set up a snipe service for auction houses?

Adam, the provider of the software used by auction houses must provide an API so developers/programmers can write applications consistent with the operating environment.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by 19cbb

Adam, the provider of the software used by auction houses must provide an API so developers/programmers can write applications consistent with the operating environment.

Doesn't Heritage own the Gavelsnipe.com software? I use it for ebay, but I'm not sure if you can use it in their auctions.

[bobfreedman]

The format for the types of auctions that the Auction Companies run, makes sniping tools irrelevant, with the extended bidding periods, there is no reason to have sniping tools.

[Heritage Sports]

Dan,

Thanks for the mention. Gavelsnipe does indeed function for Heritage auctions, but (as an earlier post addressed) the extended bidding format does still allow the sniper to be outbid before the auction close. It's still a useful tool though, and great for eBay as it's free and as effective as any other sniping program out there.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

.....from Michael O'Keeffe

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1061842

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is an interesting and important lawsuit if for no other reason than the hobby prominence of the two men involved.

I found this sentence in the O'Keefe article particularly interesting. "REA attorney Barry Kozyra had argued that the case should be dismissed because the statute of limitations had expired and that the auction house expressly disclaimed any warranties." Leaving aside the legal merit (or not) of this defense, what do people think of an auction house disclaiming any warranty of authenticity as to items it sells, as a business practice? (While REA is the auction house relying on a disclaimer in this case, my question is a more general one.) On the one hand, I can understand that it would be impossible for an auction house to verify the authenticity of items, particularly memorabilia. On the other hand, is caveat emptor appropriate where presumably most items are described in a fashion suggesting they are authentic, and where presumably the willingness of bidders to bid, and the hammer price, reflect at least in part that the auction house has apparently put its imprimatur on the item?

I don't know the answer, but find this a very interesting aspect of this lawsuit, as it likely has implications beyond its four corners.

Incidentally, what the ruling means is that the court found that the plaintiff (Corey) alleged enough facts in his complaint to proceed with his lawsuit. It should be emphasized that this is a preliminary ruling and not a ruling on the merits. Assuming the case follows the usual trajectory, the next phase will be discovery, in which the parties exchange documents and witnesses (including nonparties) are deposed.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Well stated Peter. I'll only add that this doesn't seem to help Mr. Nash's credibility either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It was brought to my attention that my previous post incorrectly stated that the disclaimer of warranty at issue in the case was that of Mastro, when in fact it was that of REA. My bad. I have corrected my post.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

.....from Michael O'Keeffe

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1061842

Interesting that the article's author had to state that '3rd Bass' is pronouced “base”...so as not to think that Nash came from a school of large-mouthed fish.

[drc]

We're not all outdoorsmen like you and Steve Carlton, Scott, and these things have to be pointed our for the rest of us. Growing up in the city, I always thought the tin can was the tuna's skin.

[Peter_Spaeth]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After 7 years, this case recently went to trial, and the jury reached a verdict several days ago. I was able to download in PDF form the verdict sheet and the jury communication regarding punitive damages from PACER, but you would need a PACER ID to see them. If I can figure out a way to post the PDFs in full, I will.

In the meantime, this is what happened, based on my review of the publicly-accessible record which of course is all I know.

While there were several counts in Mr. Shanus' Amended Complaint, the only one that went to trial was Count II, which charged Mr. Lifson and REA (Robert Edward Auctions, LLC, which subsequently changed its name to R.L. Americana, LLC) with fraud, and specifically, with "engag[ing] in a systematic scheme of misrepresenting and reporting sales with the intent of artificially inflating the auction prices of items being offered for sale." The Amended Complaint alleges as examples of such items the "Origins of Baseball Letter" and the "Fashion Course Trophy Ball," and alleges that the purchase prices of these items in REA's auction were "false and fraudulent." Those two items, and no others, are mentioned in the verdict sheet.

The jury answered a series of questions tracking the elements of fraud, separately against each defendant. It answered all questions in the affirmative.

The jury awarded no damages against the REA entity, and $55,100 against Mr. Lifson. The jury also awarded punitive damages against Mr. Lifson of $52,900.

A couple of notes:

1. This has nothing to do with Bryan Dwyer.

2. This is a civil case and there may, of course, be post-trial motions and/or an appeal.

3. I don't know the evidentiary basis for the jury's findings. Beyond the pleading stage, most of the significant filings and even the court's summary judgment opinion were not publicly-accessible through PACER, which was frustrating to me as I tried to follow the case over the years. And the transcripts of the trial, though referenced in the PACER docket, are not publicly-accessible at this time.
__________________

[Snapolit1]

Interesting. Case certainly dragged long enough. Wonder what the reason for the name change was?

[Rich Klein]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Interesting. Case certainly dragged long enough. Wonder what the reason for the name change was? """

Probably having to do with Brian taking over REA. Since Brian bought REA he is using that name while R.L. is Rob's initials. My instinct, for the three cents it is worth tell me that change is not nefarious in any way

Rich

[Stonepony]

Can we surmise that " systematic scheme" means there are far more problems that those in Mr Shanus' complaint? Or no?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

Can we surmise that " systematic scheme" means there are far more problems that those in Mr Shanus' complaint? Or no?

No. Just allegations by a plaintiff. Most of Corey's case was dismissed by the judge, one count went to trial and he won that and received 100K in compensatory and punitive damages. Of course this will be appealed and will go on another year or more.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by calvindog

No. Just allegations by a plaintiff. Most of Corey's case was dismissed by the judge, one count went to trial and he won that and received 100K in compensatory and punitive damages. Of course this will be appealed and will go on another year or more.

Speaking as an appellate attorney handling civil cases in both the federal and state court systems for 40 years, most of which have had at least $100,000 at stake, I believe Jeff is absolutely correct as to both the likelihood of an appeal and the time involved. Some cases which are initially appealed will also settle while the appeal is pending. We most likely do not have the final word in this matter at this time.

Best wishes to all,

Larry

[frankbmd]

Initially speaking

REA includes Lifson’s first and middle initial.

RL Americana includes his first and last initial.

Hopefully this info is REL. (relevant).

[the 'stache]

I just read this entire thing, start to finish. All I can say is, I'm so glad I didn't go into law. Studying legal history in college is one thing. I thoroughly enjoyed the hundreds of hours I spent researching precedent cases in Lexisnexis and Westlaw. And every single element of mock trial fascinated me. But the actual practice of law in the real world is so very different than the young idealist in me could have ever anticipated. Jeff, Larry et all, I don't know where you guys find the patience your chosen profession requires. Chapeau.

To briefly touch on the point that was discussed earlier, comparing the amount of corruption prevalent in our hobby to that within the legal and financial realms-there's really no comparison to be made, at all. There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous. But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.

[Snapolit1]

Silence in response to a jury verdict for fraud and award of punitive damages is nearly deafening. Had same thing happened to Probstein we’d be at outraged and or gleeful post 625 by now. Jury verdict seems to be given back of hand by even attorneys on the board who champion rooting out fraud in the industry. Odd to say the least.

[Snapolit1]

I’ve had friends in the financial world who have been cited for serious securities infractions and have carried it around their neck like an albatross for years. They haven’t simply walked down the street and gotten another job doing the same thing. They have continued their careers but believe me the leading brokerage houses were not rolling out the red carpet to offer them another position.


QUOTE=the 'stache;1775566]I just read this entire thing, start to finish. All I can say is, I'm so glad I didn't go into law. Studying legal history in college is one thing. I thoroughly enjoyed the hundreds of hours I spent researching precedent cases in Lexisnexis and Westlaw. And every single element of mock trial fascinated me. But the actual practice of law in the real world is so very different than the young idealist in me could have ever anticipated. Jeff, Larry et all, I don't know where you guys find the patience your chosen profession requires. Chapeau.

To briefly touch on the point that was discussed earlier, comparing the amount of corruption prevalent in our hobby to that within the legal and financial realms-there's really no comparison to be made, at all. There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous. But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.[/QUOTE]

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I’ve had friends in the financial world who have been cited for serious securities infractions and have carried it around their neck like an albatross for years. They haven’t simply walked down the street and gotten another job doing the same thing. They have continued their careers but believe me the leading brokerage houses were not rolling out the red carpet to offer them another position.

I am not overstating it when I say that, in my particular industry, ethics was everything. It's a pretty big part of the Series 7 exam. I only worked for one broker-dealer firm, but they hammered it home that our fiduciary responsibility was at the forefront of everything that we did, especially when I began preliminary studying for my 66 to work as an RIA (registered investment advisor). I held that responsibility inviolate.

The Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, or FINRA (which used to be called the NASD) tracks every single registered representative within the industry, and continues to provide information on these representatives even after they are no longer a part of the industry. Case in point, here's my profile on FINRA's Broker Check. Even though it's been more than eight years since I was forced to leave the industry when I went on disability, everything I did as a registered representative is still available to the public. The licenses I held, and when they were passed, the firm I worked at, and the exact period of time that I was licensed. If any kind of regulatory actions had been brought against me, or if I had been terminated for cause-that information would be there. If you screw up, the black mark on your record, as far as I know, never goes away.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Silence in response to a jury verdict for fraud and award of punitive damages is nearly deafening. Had same thing happened to Probstein we’d be at outraged and or gleeful post 625 by now. Jury verdict seems to be given back of hand by even attorneys on the board who champion rooting out fraud in the industry. Odd to say the least.

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk about it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To be accurate, the Amended Complaint which is public had three counts.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk about it.

So you’re saying OJ might actually be guilty???? How dare you!

[Snapolit1]

[QUOTE=calvindog;1775580]Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk

I will definitely use the “relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit” language in a press release next time one of my clients gets whacked. Useful. Thanks.

[frankbmd]

[QUOTE=Snapolit1;1775594]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk

I will definitely use the “relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit” language in a press release next time one of my clients gets whacked. Useful. Thanks.

Originally Posted by calvindog

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk about it.

A reasonable estimation of legal fees for both parties, if known, would lend credence to the characterization of a “reasonably tiny jury verdict” as an accurate assessment of the result.

[calvindog]

[QUOTE=Snapolit1;1775594]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk

I will definitely use the “relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit” language in a press release next time one of my clients gets whacked. Useful. Thanks.

Congrats on having clients, surprised me.

[Mdmtx]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.


Mark Medlin.

[calvindog]

I just spoke to Leon about this. Yes, Rob was found responsible by a civil jury on the one surviving claim of Corey's. Yes that's bad. But spending seven figures in seven years to make 100K just can't feel like a win to me. The lawyers -- who I both know and are good guys and better lawyers -- won here.

[irv]

Originally Posted by calvindog

James -- I mean Captain Obvious -- why do you think there is so much love still on this board for certain auction houses which are obviously crooked? Why do you think I took such a beating 5 years ago for proclaiming that Mastro was crooked?

I often wonder if you, and other lawyers on here, ever ask yourselves, when you continue to see members bidding/consigning with questionable A/H's and known unscrupulous others, why you continue to do what you do?

To answer my own question, I am sure you all do, but that aside, I am glad, despite the resistance, name calling, unfavorable reviews, etc, you still soldier on in the name of justice.

Thank you!

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.


Mark Medlin.

Well, Bernie didn't walk down the street and get hired by another Wall Street shop, did he? Which appears to be the norm in this industry. Last I heard he was sitting in a federal prison until his day of death.

[T205 GB]

[QUOTE=calvindog;1775616]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Congrats on having clients, surprised me.

[Snapolit1]

I’m out hustling ... one day at a time.

[Mdmtx]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Well, Bernie didn't walk down the street and get hired by another Wall Street shop, did he? Which appears to be the norm in this industry. Last I heard he was sitting in a federal prison until his day of death.

I didn’t defend or assess issue with the opinions regarding the op. My statement was merely addressing the responding posters statement about the “cleanliness” of the investment industry. IMO, anytime there is money at stake someone will be trying to angle the system.

Mark Medlin

[Peter_Spaeth]

I believe this is the "Fashion Course Trophy Ball."

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...ophy-baseball/

And this the "Origins of Baseball Letter."

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...ll-collection/

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

comparing the amount of corruption prevalent in our hobby to that within the legal and financial realms-there's really no comparison to be made, at all. There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous. But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.


Mark Medlin.

I wasn't referring to large-scale malfeasance as exhibited by one perpetrator like Bernie Madoff. I was referring to the sheer number of individuals engaging in unscrupulous activity in our hobby as compared to professions like the law, or investments. My comment was in reference to, and in support of what Jeff said here:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hank, I can assure you that there is a higher percentage of people in the hobby/business with criminal records than there are in the field of politics, law, religion, finance and medicine.

To wit:

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of LARGE-SCALE
1 : involving many people or things.

If you needed clarification, you could have asked, and I'd have happily expounded on the point I was making. Instead, you made an assumption, and decided to respond like a smart ass. Furthermore-are you f'g kidding me with this? Do you think it's even remotely possible a licensed stockbroker could not know about Bernie Madoff? What, did you think that just because I went on disability, I magically developed amnesia, forgetting about what I'd done for the prior three plus years, while simultaneously losing touch with my professional contacts/colleagues/friends still gainfully employed within the industry? Did you think because I was no longer actively working for a broker-dealer that I would stop investing in my own trading account(s), and no longer stay abreast of investment news?

Clearly there are examples of people in the legal profession, and in investments, that have operated in illegal activity on a grand scale. No system is fool proof. But it is infinitely more difficult to further this kind of activity in investments than it is in the baseball card hobby. As was previously referenced, there is no collective body overseeing auction houses, no form of recourse available outside of civil court. And that can take several years, as evidenced by the central discussion of this thread. That process has not even been completed. Broker-dealers, and their individual employees, are subject to oversight and fines, which can be substantial, and happen quickly. These fines can be levied against entities and individuals without them ever stepping foot in a courthouse. Check out the last episode of Billions on Showtime. Dudley Mafee is a trader for the Axe Capitol hedge fund. The SEC fined him $181,000 for a tier three penalty, termed "fraud, and reckless disregard of regulatory requirements." When Mafee's complicity was brought to the attention of the SEC, the fine was imposed within mere days.

[Leon]

Hey Bill
You had me until the bolded part below. You might want to ask Bill, Doug and some others about that? I will probably post a little more later but this caught my eye

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I wasn't referring to large-scale malfeasance as exhibited by one perpetrator like Bernie Madoff. I was referring to the sheer number of individuals engaging in unscrupulous activity in our hobby as compared to professions like the law, or investments. My comment was in reference to, and in support of what Jeff said here:

To wit:

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of LARGE-SCALE
1 : involving many people or things.

If you needed clarification, you could have asked, and I'd have happily expounded on the point I was making. Instead, you made an assumption, and decided to respond like a smart ass. Furthermore-are you f'g kidding me with this? Do you think it's even remotely possible a licensed stockbroker could not know about Bernie Madoff? What, did you think that just because I went on disability, I magically developed amnesia, forgetting about what I'd done for the prior three plus years, while simultaneously losing touch with my professional contacts/colleagues/friends still gainfully employed within the industry? Did you think because I was no longer actively working for a broker-dealer that I would stop investing in my own trading account(s), and no longer stay abreast of investment news?

Clearly there are examples of people in the legal profession, and in investments, that have operated in illegal activity on a grand scale. No system is fool proof. But it is infinitely more difficult to further this kind of activity in investments than it is in the baseball card hobby. As was previously referenced, there is no collective body overseeing auction houses, no form of recourse available outside of civil court. And that can take several years, as evidenced by the central discussion of this thread. That process has not even been completed. Broker-dealers, and their individual employees, are subject to oversight and fines, which can be substantial, and happen quickly. These fines can be levied against entities and individuals without them ever stepping foot in a courthouse. Check out the last episode of Billions on Showtime. Dudley Mafee is a trader for the Axe Capitol hedge fund. The SEC fined him $181,000 for a tier three penalty, termed "fraud, and reckless disregard of regulatory requirements." When Mafee's complicity was brought to the attention of the SEC, the fine was imposed within mere days.

[Mdmtx]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I wasn't referring to large-scale malfeasance as exhibited by one perpetrator like Bernie Madoff. I was referring to the sheer number of individuals engaging in unscrupulous activity in our hobby as compared to professions like the law, or investments. My comment was in reference to, and in support of what Jeff said here:
Bui


To wit:

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of LARGE-SCALE
1 : involving many people or things.

If you needed clarification, you could have asked, and I'd have happily expounded on the point I was making. Instead, you made an assumption, and decided to respond like a smart ass. Furthermore-are you fucking kidding me with this? Do you think it's even remotely possible a licensed stockbroker could not know about Bernie Madoff? What, did you think that just because I went on disability, I magically developed amnesia, forgetting about what I'd done for the prior three plus years, while simultaneously losing touch with my professional contacts/colleagues/friends still gainfully employed within the industry? Did you think because I was no longer actively working for a broker-dealer that I would stop investing in my own trading account(s), and no longer stay abreast of investment news?

Clearly there are examples of people in the legal profession, and in investments, that have operated in illegal activity on a grand scale. No system is fool proof. But it is infinitely more difficult to further this kind of activity in investments than it is in the baseball card hobby. As was previously referenced, there is no collective body overseeing auction houses, no form of recourse available outside of civil court. And that can take several years, as evidenced by the central discussion of this thread. That process has not even been completed. Broker-dealers, and their individual employees, are subject to oversight and fines, which can be substantial, and happen quickly. These fines can be levied against entities and individuals without them ever stepping foot in a courthouse. Check out the last episode of Billions on Showtime. Dudley Mafee is a trader for the Axe Capitol hedge fund. The SEC fined him $181,000 for a tier three penalty, termed "fraud, and reckless disregard of regulatory requirements." When Mafee's complicity was brought to the attention of the SEC, the fine was imposed within mere days.

I didn't make it personal. You did. I merely pointed out that money corrupts and contrary to your assertion, no industry is safe from those hell bent on gaming the system. Call me smartass if you want, I just pointed out facts! I am surprised that all the stock brokers knew, yet he rang the bell and was held in esteem.

Mark Medlin

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/libor-scandal.asp

https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-32.htm

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I didn't make it personal. You did.

Because clearly this....

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.

didn't sound at all condescending.

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I merely pointed out that money corrupts and contrary to your assertion, no industry is safe from those hell bent on gaming the system.

Where did I assess that any industry was safe from fraud?

Here's part of my first post:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous.

Clearly, people are not going to engage in fraudulent activity if the system is foolproof, are they? That's tantamount to walking into prison, opening a cell door, and closing it behind them.

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

Call me smartass if you want, I just pointed out facts!

If it's your belief that I stated, in essence, "fraud on a large scale was an impossibility in the investments industry", statement of fact to repudiate my assertion would look something like this:

"Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme cost his investors an estimated $50 billion."

You didn't do that. So, don't try to demure now, ok?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Bill
You had me until the bolded part below. You might want to ask Bill, Doug and some others about that? I will probably post a little more later but this caught my eye

I was a bit steamed when I wrote that, Leon. And my apologies for the F bomb.

What other forms of recourse are there besides civil court? Can an auction house and a complainant enter into binding arbitration?

[Peter_Spaeth]

We sure seem to have strayed from the jury verdict, if we ever were there at all.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We sure seem to have strayed from the jury verdict, if we ever were there at all.

That's partly on me, Peter.

I think the jury verdict is interesting, but, as you alluded to, the whole thing is not yet set in stone, because there could be further motions submitted, or an appeal.

As things stand currently, I'd be more likely to discuss the verdict in depth if I could pour over the court transcript.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

That's partly on me, Peter.

I think the jury verdict is interesting, but, as you alluded to, the whole thing is not yet set in stone, because there could be further motions submitted, or an appeal.

As things stand currently, I'd be more likely to discuss the verdict in depth if I could pour over the court transcript.

Bill hopefully at some point they will be released, or with only minor redactions. That day is probably some time off. But even knowing what we know, and subject to the caveat about further proceedings which I noted in my post, it still seemed an event worthy of reporting and discussing. I would guess that if the defendant had a different name, we would be having a much livelier discussion.