|
|
View Poll Results: Who should be voted into the Hall? | |||
Dwight Evans | 18 | 21.95% | |
Steve Garvey | 13 | 15.85% | |
Tommy John | 24 | 29.27% | |
Don Mattingly | 17 | 20.73% | |
Marvin Miller | 25 | 30.49% | |
Thurmon Munson | 16 | 19.51% | |
Dale Murphy | 25 | 30.49% | |
Dave Parker | 11 | 13.41% | |
Ted Simmons | 32 | 39.02% | |
Lou Whitaker | 50 | 60.98% | |
NON of the above | 9 | 10.98% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
When I hear people talking about WAR (a completely theoretical stat!!), it's like listening to the arrogant Bob Costas lecturing us about baseball. He has never played a game of baseball in his life. He's never even played a game of Wiffle Ball at a family picnic in his life, yet he wants to be all pedantic about the game. That analysis doesn't gel with people (like me and my friends) who have played baseball/softball our entire lives. Having real knowledge about what actually happens on a field is much more important when analyzing players. For instance, how many runs/extra base hits/base advances did Dave Parker prevent due to his opponents' fear of his cannon of an arm? And I have to imagine that the vast majority of people on this site have seen most, if not all, of these players in their primes. Hometown and personal biases aside, we all KNOW what each of these guys brought to the table. Deep dives into advanced sabermetrics are unnecessary.
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Arguments like this are funny, like saying that because Albert Einstein never travelled at the speed of light his theory of relativity is BS. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Edgars career numbers most closely resemble Will Clark, Moises Alou, Magglio Ordonez and John Olerud. You can talk about War and OPS all you want but his career numbers are equivalent with these guys. Tell me why Will Clark shouldn’t be in if Edgar is.
|
#4
|
||||
|
||||
OMG, you are hilarious!!!!! Your dumb analogy doesn't even come close to what I was saying.
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Well, my use of the word funny wasn't meant in the comedic sense. It was in the strange/perplexing sense. And I certainly didn't mean anything personally against you, specifically, when I posted. That's why it is funny (strange) to me that you would seem to take it that way.
|
#6
|
||||
|
||||
Personal observation tends to be both anecdotal and biased which is why stats are very helpful. Now what stats you think matter is a subject for debate.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-06-2019 at 05:24 PM. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
I like to KNOW {WHY } we hold catchers to such HIGH stats as a 1b, 3b or a of player ? Lets put Mantle, Schimdt , Gehrig behind the plate for most of there careers & lets see , how less stats , they would have ! To me if you hit 225 to 300 HRS, drive in around 1100 runs, or get 2,000 hits or 400 doubles , add catch a good game & can throw a little, that is GOOD ENOUGH ? HOFer catchers are Munson ,Simmons , L.Parrish ....Munson was well on his way, Simmons was a{SH } & the better hitter on this list .Parrish won gold gloves , went to ALL*STAR games in the 1980's & like Gary Carter , both had 324 career HRS, top 5 ALL - time at the catcher spot ?
|
#8
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Two things I find interesting:
1. If you line up the players on the ballot by career WAR and highest % of the vote they received from the BBWAA, you get almost a perfect inverse. Sometimes we forget how bad the HOF voting used to be...historically they run about 3-4 “Baines” per decade! 2. Ted Simmons missed last time he was on the ballot (“veterans”, not BBWAA) by 1 vote |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Too bad the voters are limited to four votes each. This nugget about the odds that the four vote limit creates came from the Fangraphs story (which was originally from a Joe Posnanski article and is detailed by Tom Tango): Well, if a player has a 40% chance of being on one ballot, his chances on making 12 of 16 is … get ready for it, less than 0.5%. That’s not 5% — it is less than one-half of one-percent. 995 times out of a 1,000, the player would NOT get elected. And remember, that’s assuming every voter uses all four of his votes. |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
Parker was considered the best player in baseball or in the conversation from 1977-79. When was Edgar ever in that conversation? And Parker has one of the top arms of any right fielder ever. Up there with Evans and Clemente. I saw him throw out a guy on a ball hit to right field. He had a cannon. I have no problem with putting either in. Parker gets docked for his coke years or his numbers would crush Edgar’s. I know he doesn’t deserve any sympathy for that but it still exists in reality.
|
#12
|
||||
|
||||
This is not a good analogy. A better one is if Albert Einstein said I have this formula E=mc2, but I am not going to tell you what it is, you give me the data and I will give you the answer. I am not going to subject my formula to scientific analysis and I can change my formula anytime I like, but you mist accept everything I say as true. Would you just drink the koolaid? This is WAR, except we have multiple people claiming to be Albert Einstein.
|
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I still like some modern analytics because they go deeper than old school stats. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
But can most adults understand the math and equations behind some of the numbers on a health chart at the hospital, or some of the complex computations in investing, or even how to figure out engine displacement? WAR is not something created and owned by one person, or even two. It's been vetted by others in the statistical community who understand the math at a high level. I don't understand the gritty details of it, as many others don't, but I also don't understand the math that goes into engine displacement, some investment equations, etc. etc. I trust, as many people do, professionals who do understand them, and often in life-or-death situations. And that doesn't mean the trust should be complete - WAR, as with other statistics, should be taken with a grain of salt. But I don't see it as just taking someone's word for it, WAR is a product of a larger community that has vetted and honed it over the years. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
Look at the top 25 players and pitchers by WAR. I don't think there are any real anomalies. Obviously it's quite good if not perfect. Interestingly, in my observations most people who object to it do so because it happens to devalue one of their favorite players.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-07-2019 at 08:52 AM. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Maybe the names match the reputations but I would say the WAR stat doesn't say a lot about who was a better player. Maybe there are some people who think Roger Clemens was a better pitcher (more valuable?) than Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson, but I wouldn't be one of them. I wouldn't say Kid Nichols was better than Tom Seaver either.
Last edited by packs; 11-07-2019 at 08:56 AM. |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#18
|
||||
|
||||
Link please. I don't think this is true at all.
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
I get that people are skeptical. And on a side note, I don't like seeing a thread about something else (in this case, the HOF ballot) devolve into a WAR debate. But here goes...
Feel free to google "baseball war," as you'll probably find many links to many interesting articles. On the most basic level, Wikipedia's page on WAR includes some analysis including a link to a regression analysis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wins_Above_Replacement The equations that Fangraphs and BaseballReference use are also on that page. They are not a secret recipe or behind a curtain, they are there to be enjoyed and criticized for both their attributes and faults. In this recent story on MLB.com (note that WAR is not a stat recognized by MLB), the influence on front offices of teams are explored: https://www.mlb.com/news/war-embrace...ces-c303484670 One takeaway from that MLB story: "At this point, though, every team in baseball is employing some sort of WAR calculation." Basically, every team uses some evolutionary child of WAR, which probably got started in earnest 20 years ago (or so). It's not the ONLY assessment they use for player evaluations, but it is ubiquitous at this point. So the masses of front office personnel, the minds at various websites like BR and Fangraphs and the sabermetric community in general has spent two decades honing and debating these things - this is what I'm talking about with WAR being vetted. |
#21
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
The fans who truly understand the intricacies of the game (especially from firsthand playing experience), and the players and coaches who battled against the ballot candidates, are the ones who can speak to the unquantifiables that some of the greatest players brought to the game. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
2020 Field of Dreams Baseball Game ? | Directly | WaterCooler Talk- Off Topics | 7 | 07-07-2020 09:52 AM |
Modern Era HOF Ballot: Who do you think should get in? | clydepepper | Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk | 62 | 12-11-2017 11:54 AM |
2006 Baseball Allstar Ballot $3 shipped | richardcards | Everything Else, Football, Non-Sports etc.. B/S/T | 1 | 04-20-2014 11:02 AM |
Modern Gai authenticated autos...? slightly OT | yanksfan09 | Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used | 18 | 04-10-2010 05:04 PM |
The Baseball Card HOF Official Ballot | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 26 | 08-30-2002 06:23 PM |