1927 Yankees team ball forgery

[barrysloate]

I've got to say guys, and I will take some flack for this, but collecting autographs is one f**king miserable hobby. Every collecting field has to deal with some level of fraud- coins are cleaned, stamps are reperforated, baseball cards are trimmed- but the fraud in the autograph hobby is so off the charts I don't know how people can really enjoy it. And the idea that an autograph collector needs to educate himself may be somewhat true, but take David A., who has been studying Yankee memorabilia for decades. He certainly is at the top of the learning curve, yet look at this stinking mess. I have to think a 27 Yankee ball in that condition is worth well north of 50K, and his example is now worth exactly zero. Hobbies are supposed to be relaxing endeavors; I would need a regular supply of Xanax to deal with this shit. This is going to drive so many collectors out of autographs and will have a significant impact on its future. If somebody asked me the best way to get started in autograph collecting, I would tell him to collect hummels instead.

[scmavl]

Wow David, that is a real disappointment. Sorry that happened to you. I think I have a Rick Honeycutt signed ball if you want me to send it to you as a replacement...

[cubsguy1969]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Barry. I don't really collect autographs but I've always had in the back of my mind that it would be really cool to some day own a signed Ruth ball. But with fraud like this so rampant, and only a select few being able to recognize bad examples, it wouldn't be worth the stress of never knowing if I truly had the real thing. It would suck the enjoyment out of ownership of such a treasure. To me, the allure of collecting an autograph is: "Wow, that was written by the legendary Babe Ruth. He held that ball in his hand 80 years ago and handed it to some lucky kid." Instead, I would imagine some unwashed a-hole in a seedy apartment hunched over a ball doing his dirty work. Very sad.

So sorry this happened, David.

Rob

[perezfan]

David:

As the others stated, it is very commendable that you posted this. It was the difficult, but right thing to do, and many thanks (from all of us collectors) for taking the high road!

I am also hoping that this thread can address a little about the forgery itself...

Whle the sigs on the ball all appear very convincing, I am sure it must have been the unique style of this specific forger that gave it away. It's far easier to analyze "after the fact"... but in retrospect, it is interesting that the forger made two of the same basic mistakes that so many seem to...

1. The ink type, color, consistency and pressure doesn't vary at all from signature to signature. It is perfectly consistent throughout.

2. The signatures barely touch each other (if at all). Normally, there is some inevitable overlap, regardless of how much care is taken in signing.

This makes for a beautiful and aesthetically pleasing ball... but how many authentic team-signed balls really look this perfect? I know it's easier to look back and notice these things "after the fact", and that many/most of us would have been fooled by this one (including Spence). I just found it interesting that the even a forgery of this magnitude failed to "side-step" those tell-tale signs.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by perezfan

David:

As the others stated, it is very commendable that you posted this. It was the difficult, but right thing to do, and many thanks (from all of us collectors) for taking the high road!

I am also hoping that this thread can address a little about the forgery itself...

Whle the sigs on the ball all appear very convincing, I am sure it must have been the unique style of this specific forger that gave it away. It's far easier to analyze "after the fact"... but in retrospect, it is interesting that the forger made two of the same basic mistakes that so many seem to...

1. The ink type, color, consistency and pressure doesn't vary at all from signature to signature. It is perfectly consistent throughout.

2. The signatures barely touch each other (if at all). Normally, there is some inevitable overlap, regardless of how much care is taken in signing.

This makes for a beautiful and aesthetically pleasing ball... but how many authentic team-signed balls really look this perfect? I know it's easier to look back and notice these things "after the fact", and that many/most of us would have been fooled by this one (including Spence). I just found it interesting that the even a forgery of this magnitude failed to "side-step" those tell-tale signs.

The young-skilled forger (who still may be around) who did that ball was also skilled at producing vintage New York Giants team-signed baseballs. Back in the day, he fooled many people.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The young-skilled forger (who still may be around) who did that ball was also skilled at producing vintage New York Giants team-signed baseballs. Back in the day, he fooled many people.

He also fooled Charlie Sheen in a classic con of forged baseballs.
SS balls of Black Sox were inscribed To Charlie and were allegedly given to Charlie Riegler who was one of the umps during the 1919 Series.
From what I was told, Sheen gobbled them up.
Though he was conned I thought he was pretty good in Eight Men Out .
This story is only hearsay but I believe it is true.
And I did see a 1920's NY Giants "team signed" ball at a show, offered to me by the partner of the forger.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

And I did see a 1920's NY Giants "team signed" ball at a show, offered to me by the partner of the forger.

Is his partner still active in the hobby?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Also, the young-skilled forger primarily forged vintage baseballs.

[David Atkatz]

Richard just said above that he forged single-signed balls, as well.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Is his partner still active in the hobby?

yes he is.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

yes he is.

That's very disturbing news. Is this a well known dealer?

[David Atkatz]

The forger did, however, replicate aspects of early team balls that many do not notice. On many such balls, the players did not sign over the manufacturer's stamps; that was done here. Also, note the panel with the league president's signature stamp. The player signatures align with the stamp, rather than the usual "ladder" alignment, with the signatures forming the rungs of a ladder, and the seams being the sides. This, too, was often done on early team balls.

The forger wasn't "greedy." (Ironic way of phrasing it.) Had he chosen to sign over the stampings, there would have been plenty of room to include more signatures--a Giard, for example--and thus increase the ball's value.

[Forever Young]

Barry,

I agree with you on most of this. In the past year, I have decided to only buy/collect autographs on the following items:

1. Stamped GPCs
2. Letters
3. Checks
4. Contracts
5. Receipts

And even then, I make sure I am comfortable.

Ben

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I've got to say guys, and I will take some flack for this, but collecting autographs is one f**king miserable hobby. Every collecting field has to deal with some level of fraud- coins are cleaned, stamps are reperforated, baseball cards are trimmed- but the fraud in the autograph hobby is so off the charts I don't know how people can really enjoy it. And the idea that an autograph collector needs to educate himself may be somewhat true, but take David A., who has been studying Yankee memorabilia for decades. He certainly is at the top of the learning curve, yet look at this stinking mess. I have to think a 27 Yankee ball in that condition is worth well north of 50K, and his example is now worth exactly zero. Hobbies are supposed to be relaxing endeavors; I would need a regular supply of Xanax to deal with this shit. This is going to drive so many collectors out of autographs and will have a significant impact on its future. If somebody asked me the best way to get started in autograph collecting, I would tell him to collect hummels instead.

[chaddurbin]

i'm sickened by the news. again thx to david for being stand-up and notifying the board instead of trying to peddle the ball off behind the JSA cert.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

i've got to say guys, and i will take some flack for this, but collecting autographs is one f**king miserable hobby. Every collecting field has to deal with some level of fraud- coins are cleaned, stamps are reperforated, baseball cards are trimmed- but the fraud in the autograph hobby is so off the charts i don't know how people can really enjoy it. And the idea that an autograph collector needs to educate himself may be somewhat true, but take david a., who has been studying yankee memorabilia for decades. He certainly is at the top of the learning curve, yet look at this stinking mess. I have to think a 27 yankee ball in that condition is worth well north of 50k, and his example is now worth exactly zero. Hobbies are supposed to be relaxing endeavors; i would need a regular supply of xanax to deal with this shit. This is going to drive so many collectors out of autographs and will have a significant impact on its future. If somebody asked me the best way to get started in autograph collecting, i would tell him to collect hummels instead.

+1000