Most Undervalued Boxing Card/Set

[Box-Cards]

I agree: Supply and rarity in the long run trumps demand over marketing in general. I also believe that down the road and further into the future this may also depend on which era the rarity originated. Late 1800s, early 1900s, and most pre-war rarities are one thing, today's contemporary card companies' marketing attempts at producing "manufactured rarity" by creating the exact same card single in a 1/1 "Gold" version, (/125) in Silver, (/25) in Blue, and (/10) in a Red version, or however they wish to number and designate them, is on a totally different plane than what the hobby used to think of when contemplating something's rarity. "Manufactured rarity" may or may not have been what Jim had in the back of his mind in eluding to value being connected to marketing. Regardless, in today's hobby it seems to have some affect on collectors when one sees what they're willing to bid on them in auction at different times. I'm not a fan of manufactured rarity myself--unless the specific "rarest" version in the series had something extremely special and unique incorporated into it that its other, higher run versions did not. Leaf's move to embed "Everlast" Logo swatches as the relics used ONLY in most or some of the Gold (1/1) Versions of their 2012 Ali Metal's Event Worn series--is an example of what I do find acceptable for "manufactured rarity." Yet they didn't do that in their first Ali-related set release... all their earlier ones with Everlast-Logo swatches were not of the Gold (1/1) version but in the Silver (/20) and some (/60) Bronzes. Manufactured Rarity nevertheless seems to be the dish-of-the-day now across most of the sports card industry.

How do you others feel about those "manufactured rarities" of today?

A note to Jim: Ali "Bootlickers" is offensive, since my post and opinions on some of his cards was just before that statement. If you had a chance to read my earlier posts elsewhere about needing an Ali Panini Valida Back, it offered that my long standing, favorite fighter happened to be Jack Dempsey, and I had completed a Global Card Review on Dempsey's issues first that was rejected by book publishers as not having a big enough audience; their suggesting doing one on Ali instead--so I've been working on that ever since. Deep in the middle of the Ali project as I am, I thought to share with others some of what was known or had been discovered while doing it as well as my opinion of which ones I liked best. A lot of people don't like Ali for various reasons, some mentioned, and that's anybody's right. Still, it is obvious that a whole lot more people around the world undeniably do. I don't dislike anyone based on whether or not they do or don't like him. I always listen and give everyone an equal opportunity to express personal opinions, pro-or-con, as to why without putting them down for it.

Myself, I've been collecting boxing for a long time, too, starting when I first was discharged from the Marines in 1970, Vietnam Era, due to service-connected medical injuries. I started to include collecting Ali's cards around the late 1980s, and I think I was already pretty much "grown up" by then. Even as far as the military goes, I was the type of person who held nothing against anybody else who opposed or didn't want to serve during my same period. I saw it as a personal choice that I personally made in enlisting in the Marine Airwing following a time in university studies, and I held nothing personal against anybody who didn't personally want to do the same thing; privately, I was opposed to the draft as well and believed only those who wanted to serve were the ones I wanted by my side as I served. I never put anyone down or insulted them for not wanting to, including Ali. Whether you do or do not like or collect Ali, it certainly shouldn't be any basis to put anybody else who may feel differently down for doing so. It's a free world.

[Exhibitman]

Daniel, I hope you didn't take my agreement w/Jim as agreement with the political sentiments. I happen to agree with Ali's stance on Vietnam and ultimately he was proven correct as a matter of law w/r/t his status as conscientious objector. My agreement as to Ali is based on his treatment of others in his life, specifically Joe Frazier. I realize that some trash talk is inevitable in gladiatorial sports but Ali went too far with it, especially in the run-up to Manila, and I just don't like the man. I'm also a bit nonplussed by the Ali hagiographers. He was the best of the group in the greatest group of heavyweights to be active at the same time but not by that much: he lost to Frazier and barely beat Frazier in the rubber match; it was literally Futch stopping Frazier before Ali quit on his stool. Norton busted him up in one fight and Ali barely eked out victory the others.

[clamendo]

It really quite simple, I used to collect boxing and
I take a peek here once and a while. Ali cards will always be "undervalued" because many people don't like him and feel he was actually a coward.
Maybe his cards would have been worth more
If he actually would have gone to Vietnam and fought
Along side of Jim. Maybe he could have taken some
Shrapnel and he would have had not only
A championship belt but the. purple heart like Jim recieved.

[Box-Cards]

I get what you're both saying and feel the same for the most part, especially Adam. I have my own favorite boxers (Marvin Hagler among them) and others I don't care for especially when they're out of the ring.

The thing with me, I suspend either type of prejudice whenever any fighter steps into the ring and judge them and their performance by what happens there, regardless. In my own opinion, having watched all 3 Ali/Norton bouts a number of repeat times, I was honest in mentioning to Ken at his IBHOF Inductions that "in my opinion" he'd never lost to Ali; it looked like he'd won all 3 fights in their end. Jimmy Young was another I thought outpointed Ali but didn't win...they took it away from him because of his tactics repeatedly sticking his head through the ropes anytime Ali started to get off on him.

Frazier beat him outright in their first and gave him hell in another-- still, overall Ali was the best of his era (regardless of by what degree.) That was an era that arguably included the best group of heavyweights all at once in history. Yes, the crap he said to Frazier (and how he treated Patterson) went too far; made Frazier carry the scar for life and hate him to the end.

It seems hard to say Ali didn't have a championship heart in the ring throughout his entire career, though; he got up from Frazier's hook when that hook was knocking everyone else out; went the distance with Berbick at the end when he never should have been in the ring in the first place; and took his worse beating from Holmes, on his feet, and kept coming out until they finally stopped it. He faced Foreman, Shavers, and Liston twice (I know the controversy so let's not debate Liston, too); 3 of the most feared punchers of any time or era. What he did, said, or didn't do outside the ring is one thing; for me, boxing has always been my only sport and I've always judged a fighter by what he did in the ring, not outside it.

Ali was no coward in or out of the ring. His stand on not serving during the Vietnam Conflict (it never was declared an official "war" whereas China warned that, if we declared so, they'd enter it against us)---took as much courage, if not more than if he accepted his draft--being stripped of his title and denied a license to box afterward. He accepted the repercussions that followed and still kept his beliefs on his own terms. A lot of us who did serve didn't like it, and still don't like him for it, but that doesn't necessarily make him a "coward" just because he went a different path than us others.

I also don't believe that specific reason is any primary reason for his cards being undervalued. For every person who won't collect him because of it there are a dozen who do for other reasons. Maybe some of that popularity IS related to "marketing" and that was what Jim was talking about. Nevertheless, his cards out-price most all other boxers' issues produced during the same period as well as a lot of earlier era ones.

Isn't that what we were talking about here, and cards-in-general what this forums is supposed to be about covering, politics-religion aside?

[nameless]

A lot of boxing collectors, myself included were in the military. Cool I think, whimpy baseball people

[Exhibitman]

Candidly, I think most Ali cards are overvalued based on availability. There are many that are legitimately scarce and deserve a high valuation but there are a lot of Ali cards from "mainstream" issues of the era that carry a substantial premium over equally available cards from the same issues of the other great heavies of the era. To me he is kind of like Mantle in that regard. As for fighting rep, I rate him right under Louis, up there with Dempsey and the other ATGs. I just don't feel any warm fuzzies over the man himself and therefore don't actively pursue his cards and memorabilia other than within the historical context of the cards I do collect. If I'm gonna collect a fighter I really have to like him, hence my pursuit of Jeffries, Louis and Leonard stuff.

And the modern/manufactured rarity cards, don't even get me started, ugh. Horrible stuff IMHO, been poison to modern baseball card collecting, and infects and kills every modern boxing issue starting w/the 1996 Ringside. I was really a booster of the 2010 Ringside issue when it came out a few years ago from the Sport King revivalists but geez, what a fiasco that has been. Two and out, and no wonder. No one bothers with the base sets--just as I suspected would be the case as I wrote on my blog after the 2010 National ["As for the base product, my feeling is that if collectors are going to basically throw away the base cards, the set is a failure"]--and the parallels are stupid things to 'invest' in over the long term, frankly. Not saying don't buy them if you like and enjoy them, but don't count on a black onyx set paying your kid's college tuition, either, especially with no new annual issues from the mfg to maintain collector interest. Lots of 1990s baseball 'investors' learned that the hard way. There was a real chance there to make a product that would fit well with contemporary boxing and have a lifespan--take over from the Brown's issues--but they blew it by weighting the issue to [yawn] the same old-timers as were in Kayo and AW in 1991. Boring then and boring now. About all I bother with from the two Ringside issues are the autographed cards of contemporary guys and I just sit and wait for them to come up at low prices, which they do. Picked up Calzaghe, Barrera, Glen Johnson, Barkley, and a few others at bottom feeder prices. And the artwork can be so fugly and cartoonish on some of those that I may have a friend who does custom cards use the autographs as cuts to make nicer cards out of them.

What was the question?

[nameless]

I know there are a handful of people out there trying to get the Onyx cards. And the two I picked up are of modern icons, love them or hate them. Got them for less than $40 each and am getting retarded high offers. Not counting on them to pay for anyone's college but hell I did well on these. Mantle, Ali and Tyson will always go for high premiums. Bottom line.

[aljurgela]

I feel that the Red Sun issue is one of the coolest and one of the most undervalued versus other things on the market in the 20th century. For 19th century, I most like Lorriards Mechanics.

Al

[nameless]

3 years later...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321198534130...84.m1586.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321198534897...84.m1586.l2649