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  #101  
Old 08-09-2019, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%
I wonder how that corresponds to the overall percentage of graded cards sold?
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  #102  
Old 08-09-2019, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%
Throw in the modern serial numbered and other others and Beckett starts fairing MUCH worse, to say nothing of the pristine scandal.
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  #103  
Old 08-10-2019, 03:32 AM
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The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.
I wish I could just buy that card and turn around and demand that it be regraded as Authentic.

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  #104  
Old 08-10-2019, 10:17 AM
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no mention of dick towel, this guy could take out any pen/ink mark, most wrinkles and creases that didnt break paper, and the gum/ wax stain on the back, he would do stacks and stacks of the bowmans, the 51's and 52's...i heard he done thousands....i remember someone saying his mantle count was up to 250+ fixed, and this was 2003.....
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  #105  
Old 08-10-2019, 11:30 AM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.
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  #106  
Old 08-10-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.
Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor.
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  #107  
Old 08-11-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor.
You said it...
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  #108  
Old 08-11-2019, 11:50 AM
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IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.
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  #109  
Old 08-11-2019, 12:11 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.
100% agree !! TPG will never be done by computers the customer base and grading company’s want crack outs, re submissions....it’s all a gamble sometimes worth thousand to the seller and worth millions to the company. Computerized modern grading of cards will never happen imo
Will be interesting to see what happens....
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  #110  
Old 08-11-2019, 01:22 PM
CurtisFlood CurtisFlood is offline
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.
Imagine the registry guys trying to replace all the colored, altered, trimmed cards in their sets. Mission impossible.
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  #111  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.
That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.
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  #112  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:25 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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How late till the graded card market tanks? Next bad recession or will numbers be much lower this time next year in regards to this ? I’m betting on the latter.

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-11-2019 at 07:27 PM.
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  #113  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:55 PM
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That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.
Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.
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  #114  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.

Agree you’re 100% correct

I think it’s more so people don’t care or are covering because they’re holding or pumping/selling PSA slabbed cards. To those guys All that’s cared about is money, sad but factual.
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  #115  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:40 AM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.
The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 08-12-2019 at 10:42 AM.
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  #116  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.
The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

Last edited by barrysloate; 08-12-2019 at 10:56 AM.
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  #117  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:56 AM
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The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.
If Madoff wasn't a PSA fan, you may be right.
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  #118  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:00 AM
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If Madoff wasn't a PSA fan, you may be right.
Q: Why is Bernie Madoff like a slabbed card?

A: Because they are both entombed.
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  #119  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:35 AM
Promethius88 Promethius88 is offline
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The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.
Yes, I believe that HE honestly believes it. He has stated in many posts that he will never purchase a card again, the whole hobby is tainted, nobody can be trusted, etc. It's obvious he his not a collector and just comes here for the drama at this point. If you aren't collecting there really seems to be no other reason to come to this forum multiple times a day. If there was something in life that got me so worked up, I guess I would find something better to do with my time.
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  #120  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:53 AM
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Yes, I believe that HE honestly believes it. He has stated in many posts that he will never purchase a card again, the whole hobby is tainted, nobody can be trusted, etc. It's obvious he his not a collector and just comes here for the drama at this point. If you aren't collecting there really seems to be no other reason to come to this forum multiple times a day. If there was something in life that got me so worked up, I guess I would find something better to do with my time.
Chuck has to make up for all the people saying it is a small percentage of cards that are altered. IMHO they are WAY more delusional than Chuck. Maybe he is passionate about cards and the reason he posts about the fraud constantly.

I know I am baffled beyond belief how so many are trying to minimize what is going on. I do get their reason though. I sincerely hope karma is a real thing.
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  #121  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
Chuck has to make up for all the people saying it is a small percentage of cards that are altered. IMHO they are WAY more delusional than Chuck. Maybe he is passionate about cards and the reason he posts about the fraud constantly.

I know I am baffled beyond belief how so many are trying to minimize what is going on. I do get their reason though. I sincerely hope karma is a real thing.
They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-12-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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  #122  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:58 PM
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They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T
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  #123  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:22 PM
benjulmag benjulmag is offline
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They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T
Worked out between whom, law enforcement and PWCC, between PSA and its current customers?

That may all be well and good in regard to how THESE players choose to view things. However, it will have no bearing on how the market (i.e., future buyers) view it. In the end, a card is worth what an informed buyer is willing to pay. And if some day (hopefully sooner rather than later), a buyer will be able know what has been done to the card not via terminology (i.e., alteration versus restoration) but instead by the actual work done, the price that buyer will be willing to pay will indicate his/her "acceptance" of any such restorative legitimacy.

Last edited by benjulmag; 08-12-2019 at 01:24 PM.
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  #124  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:54 PM
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They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T
Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.
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  #125  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:06 PM
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the price that buyer will be willing to pay will indicate his/her "acceptance" of any such restorative legitimacy.
I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.

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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.
I don't comment too often on all of this because I find most of my opinions continually get posted before I can get them posted myself. I feel like PSA is a huge part of the problem, PWCC knew what was going on and was complicit in the whole thing and I hope the FBI do bring charges on someone. I wish more collectors knew about the scandal also. I agree there are way too few who know anything about it.
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  #126  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:34 PM
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I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.
As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.
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  #127  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:06 PM
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As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.
I think you're right Corey and I hope these New Buyers do bring down the inflated prices we've been seeing for so many years now. I don't wish doom on the hobby, but a correction would be nice.
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  #128  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:20 PM
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Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.
Yes sir exactly !
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  #129  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:39 PM
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Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.
I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

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I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.



I don't comment too often on all of this because I find most of my opinions continually get posted before I can get them posted myself. I feel like PSA is a huge part of the problem, PWCC knew what was going on and was complicit in the whole thing and I hope the FBI do bring charges on someone. I wish more collectors knew about the scandal also. I agree there are way too few who know anything about it.
I'm the same. I am fully aware of the problem and I post regularily on 2 FB sites I frequent but those 2 sites might just be a majority of members here?
One site I was banned/kicked off of after I posted the Hitler parody.

Imo, just because some don't frequently post about it doesn't mean they aren't aware of it.

I had written PSA and PWCC off long before this scandal hit and my reasons weren't even about the doctoring but mainly due to the inconsistency I seen with PSA and the questionable practices I seen from PWCC.
This scandal just cemented/confirmed my reasons/thoughts and I for one, no matter what, will ever get a card graded with PSA nor will I ever purchase or consign any cards through PWCC ever again.

Last edited by irv; 08-12-2019 at 03:41 PM.
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  #130  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:43 PM
chalupacollects chalupacollects is offline
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As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.
Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...
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  #131  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:55 PM
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Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...
i agree and what would also be invaluable for a new/existing TPG'er would be a database of known original, unaltered examples of every card that can be submitted for grading...this way thickness, size, card stock quality/color could be known and called upon for comparison.

Not sure if this is even feasible financially anymore????
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  #132  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:18 PM
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[quote=irv;1907782]I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I (for one) did not see even a hint of it. Was looking around for any sign of Flyers, Signs or the Moser/Orlando/Huigens Cards that were produced. But never saw a thing. Guess it just goes to show what a small minority we are within the hobby.

Did anyone else here witness any calling out of PWCC, Beckett or PSA?

Last edited by perezfan; 08-12-2019 at 05:45 PM.
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  #133  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:23 PM
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[quote=perezfan;1907821]
Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I (for one) did not see even a hint of it. Was looking around for any sign of Flyers, Signs or the Moser/Orlando/Huygens Cards that were produced. But never saw a thing. Guess it just goes to show what a small minority we are within the hobby.

Did anyone else here witness any calling out of PWCC, Beckett or PSA?
I doubt any quantity were actually made. I removed the Topps logo and printed up a few blank back versions I sent fellow members for free.
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  #134  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:32 PM
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Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

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  #135  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:24 AM
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The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.
you're probably right, I stand corrected. Not even in my wildest dreams do I think it's 50 Billion but, who really knows? This "musical chairs" has been going on ad nauseam for 20 years now. You would agree the magnitude is HUGE?
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  #136  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chalupacollects View Post
Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...
I think that's what Peter Nash is doing on BO.
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  #137  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

Jason Schwartz
Western Springs, IL

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Me three.
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  #138  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:42 PM
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you're probably right, I stand corrected. Not even in my wildest dreams do I think it's 50 Billion but, who really knows? This "musical chairs" has been going on ad nauseam for 20 years now. You would agree the magnitude is HUGE?
Yes, I do believe the magnitude is huge. I don't think it's a matter of just a few bad cards.
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  #139  
Old 08-13-2019, 04:09 PM
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Yes, I do believe the magnitude is huge. I don't think it's a matter of just a few bad cards.
I agree Barry. Of course it's huge. It's been going on rampantly for 15+ years.
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  #140  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:06 AM
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I agree Barry. Of course it's huge. It's been going on rampantly for 15+ years.
In 1996 Daniel Desmond said he had restored thousands of cards in the VCBC 7 article he was quoted in. We know he is still doing it today, a mere 23 years later.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=270622

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875
.
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Last edited by Leon; 08-15-2019 at 09:06 AM.
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  #141  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon View Post
In 1996 Daniel Desmond said he had restored thousands of cards in the VCBC 7 article he was quoted in. We know he is still doing it today, a mere 23 years later.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=270622

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875
.
And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.
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  #142  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:32 AM
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I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.

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And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.
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  #143  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:40 AM
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On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.
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  #144  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:41 AM
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I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.
If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.
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  #145  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.
At least one card doctor graded for PSA for a while, some time ago.
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  #146  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:00 PM
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I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

Last edited by drcy; 08-15-2019 at 12:01 PM.
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  #147  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:08 PM
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if i had made millions doctoring cards, i wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience.
i beg to differ!
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  #148  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:59 PM
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I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

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If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.
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  #149  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:19 PM
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I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

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I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?
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Last edited by Leon; 08-15-2019 at 01:20 PM.
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  #150  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:20 PM
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I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.
I hope you're right...

But it will never happen if PSA is still ruling the roost in the TPG world. A new better company will need to emerge, to render PSA (and it's tens of thousands of mis-graded cards) obsolete. PSA would NEVER take the responsibility to do so themselves, as evidenced by recent statements from Sloan and Orlando.

Obviously a big "ask", but hope it can happen.

Last edited by perezfan; 08-15-2019 at 01:25 PM.
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