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  #51  
Old 08-06-2019, 07:57 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Somewhere earlier I read a quote from some dude saying
While there are questions of what constitutes an improper alteration
I was like WTF improper alterations???? To me any/all alterations, adding or removing to a card, are Fraudulent and Not Good.
What a downplay !!!! Come on Man....

Are we headed to this

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle 311
PSA Conserved 8

As compared to

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle 311
PSA Restored 8

Oh Right Joe Just Stop complaining...what a crock of Bull S

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-06-2019 at 07:59 PM.
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  #52  
Old 08-06-2019, 08:29 PM
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Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assessed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?
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Last edited by BeanTown; 08-06-2019 at 08:34 PM.
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  #53  
Old 08-06-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BeanTown View Post
Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?
Don't forget rebuilt corners!
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  #54  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:46 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Do you remember the one-hit wonder song by the group Ides of March?
No, I don't. I guess I could look it up.

Would it be the 1970 hit "Vehicle?" Never heard of it.

Last edited by barrysloate; 08-07-2019 at 04:47 AM.
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  #55  
Old 08-07-2019, 06:19 AM
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No, I don't. I guess I could look it up.

Would it be the 1970 hit "Vehicle?" Never heard of it.
Yeah. The lead singer sounds exactly like the great David Clayton-Thomas of Blood Sweat and Tears to me, but it's not he.
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  #56  
Old 08-07-2019, 06:42 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanTown View Post
Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assessed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?

I could see them doing this ......would be a total disaster evaluating pricing Geez what a mess

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-07-2019 at 06:48 AM.
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  #57  
Old 08-07-2019, 07:15 AM
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Another question to ponder is, if PSA can identify alterations (someday), how will they treat resubmitted cards? If they are able to identify all the alterations they previously missed, how will the deal with all the misgraded cards out there? Perhaps they hope they are unable to better identify alterations in the future.
I think PSA is well aware of what a slippery slope this is. Even if they are coming up with more advanced technology to identify alterations in response to what is going on, I think there will be a lot of hesitation to roll it out. They'll basically have thousands of people who paid $$$ for a high graded card 5 years ago resubmitting and now being told the same card is altered and only worth $ and collectors will demand the $$ difference from PSA as it was their oversight in the first place when it was originally graded. Class action anyone??

I think it is going to take a new company with better technology to take on PSA and dethrone them as king (as least initially until this new company becomes just as corrupt over time and we're back where we started).
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  #58  
Old 08-07-2019, 07:41 AM
benjulmag benjulmag is offline
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Originally Posted by drcy View Post
Some people are saying "PSA will do this," "Registry will do that."

However, if the FBI and criminal prosecutions involving false grading are involved, the question will be how much say will PSA and Registry people in it? PSA may hope "Let's hope it all just blows over and people accept altered cards," and Registry people may say the same. However, if the FBI says these altered cards and the selling thereof (as non-alerted) is a criminal offense, and all these misgraded cards in the Registry are products of criminal or whatever behavior, PSA and Registry won't be able to just ignore it-- certainly not at resale time and grading time.

I think their hands will be forced.

At the least, the altered cards will have to be overtly labelled as altered (How the hobby prices those then is another matter), and PSA will have to address the altered cards. PSA will not be allowed to "whistle by the graveyard" or "grandfather clause" all their past mistakes . . . As I said in previous post, what does PSA now do when altered cards are resubmitted for grading? The now know many are altered, and the now know the FBI is involved. And what does the hobby as a whole now do, with so many people who resubmit cards hoping for a better grade? This all changes things a lot, and not in a way that PSA will be fond of.

I firmly believe that PSA will have to address in serious fashion all the altered cards that they misgraded-- and there a ton of them, involving lots of $$ and a boatload of card owners, including wealthy Registry folk, who aren't going to be happy when their cards are addressed in serious fashion. Tell me how this isn't a problem, or at least a conundrumm (including in a legal sense), for PSA and Registry set owners?
The points you raise are prescient, and at the National I had conversations with the FBI about them. The discussion centered around a business model that cannot detect expertly done alterations, yet attracting business by giving prospective customers the impression that it can. At the very least PSA should be required to give a warning about the limitations of the services it provides, much the same way, say, cigarette manufacturers have to include a warning about the health dangers of smoking. Unless, though, PSA felt they would be exposed to criminal liability by not providing such a disclosure, I would think legislation would be required to accomplish it.

I don't know what if any impact the current FBI involvement will have on PSA, but I can say that based on my discussions with the FBI, I got the impression that they seem well aware of the limitations of the PSA business model.

Last edited by benjulmag; 08-07-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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  #59  
Old 08-07-2019, 07:45 AM
chalupacollects chalupacollects is offline
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Originally Posted by benjulmag View Post
Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.
And there is a patent on a new digital , computer based grading system...I've just been wondering if that group is getting ready to introduce it or maybe sell the technology to PSA...

The patent paperwork or link to it was posted here maybe a year ago by Peter Spaeth I believe? Several lawyers out of California and some former Microsoft engineers...
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  #60  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:03 AM
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Yeah. The lead singer sounds exactly like the great David Clayton-Thomas of Blood Sweat and Tears to me, but it's not he.
Great horn section too.
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  #61  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:18 AM
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Great horn section too.
On the other hand, the lyrics were awful.

Well, if you want to be a movie star
I can take you to Hollywood
But if you want to stay just like you are
You know I think you really should
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  #62  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:26 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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The first Blood, Sweat, and Tears, with Al Kooper, was far superior.
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  #63  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:28 AM
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On the other hand, the lyrics were awful.

Well, if you want to be a movie star
I can take you to Hollywood
But if you want to stay just like you are
You know I think you really should
Yeah, there's that.
I remember it vividly blaring out of the speakers at the city pool when I was a wee lad.
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  #64  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:30 AM
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The first Blood, Sweat, and Tears, with Al Kooper, was far superior.
Perhaps from a purist's point of view, but the first album with Clayton-Thomas was great in its own right, with the Erik Satie echoes throughout, etc. The version of Billie Holiday's God Bless the Child was brilliant.
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  #65  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:41 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Perhaps from a purist's point of view, but the first album with Clayton-Thomas was great in its own right, with the Erik Satie echoes throughout, etc. The version of Billie Holiday's God Bless the Child was brilliant.
They were both good, so it's just a matter of taste. I have both in my vinyl collection.
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  #66  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:14 AM
benjulmag benjulmag is offline
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This thread has become a bit hijacked.
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  #67  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:36 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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This thread has become a bit hijacked.
I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell
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  #68  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:14 AM
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"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.
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  #69  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:17 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell
Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share. But one doing something completely different, utilizing technology that would, for example, floresce whenever it detected paper alteration, could be enormously successful.

While PSA would no doubt be reluctant to take a second look at cards they graded and admit any problem, a competitor equipped with this technology would be more than happy to take them down. That would be their likely path to a greater market share.

Nothing may happen this week or this month, but this story is far from over. I predict some enterprising soul will turn this hobby upside-down. There is a giant void that somebody is about to fill.

Last edited by barrysloate; 08-07-2019 at 10:27 AM.
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  #70  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:22 AM
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"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle
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  #71  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:31 AM
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"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle
Great God in heaven you know I love you.

LOL so bad.
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  #72  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:36 AM
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Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.
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  #73  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markf31 View Post
"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.
Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".
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  #74  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:40 AM
chalupacollects chalupacollects is offline
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Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share.
Tell that to Amazon, they started out selling books... A new company with a new wrinkle will affect changes with the TPG's....
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  #75  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:41 AM
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I agree and was thinking along this line. If the current grading companies do nothing (and that's basically what PSA wants to do), and a new company or used technology and methodology is used to identify unaltered cards, the will change things drastically. Especially with high end cards, the old grades may become obsolete or considered lesser-- especially if and when the new technology and methodology demonstrates that many of the registry cards are altered.

Futher, and as I've said before, it takes only a percentage of collectors, investors, PSA registry people to drop out to change their minds and/or drop out fot the bottom to fall out. And I believe that a percentage of people WILL change their tunes about PSA graded cards.
Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.
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  #76  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:45 AM
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Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.
I thought that is why they change flips and slabs. Then say how great the new ones are and how there "might" be problems with the older version(s).
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  #77  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:46 AM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is online now
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.
He certainly can be called Dicky Licht man. Had great respect for the man at the beginning speaking the truth, but I guess everyone else was correct about his shady character now that he has to be a bold faced liar for his pal Brent Mastro. The biggest criminal this industry has ever seen. I mean what did we expect? it's very fitting actually.

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 08-07-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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  #78  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:02 AM
benjulmag benjulmag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.
Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

Last edited by benjulmag; 08-07-2019 at 11:03 AM.
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  #79  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:09 AM
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Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".
I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-07-2019 at 11:12 AM.
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  #80  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:11 AM
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I hope you are right, Corey.
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Last edited by slidekellyslide; 08-07-2019 at 11:12 AM.
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  #81  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:14 AM
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I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.
I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by benjulmag View Post
Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.
This is almost exactly what I was about to post, nearly word for word. We are definitely on the same wavelength.

Collectors can perceive their own collections any way they want, and if they feel that if the label says it's an 8, case closed, that's fine. But there's a huge problem with it: nearly every collector reaches a day of reckoning when it's time to sell. And at that point it's irrelevant what they think of their cards, as that burden falls solely on prospective buyers.

And when the technology is employed to detect the altered cards, there will be unaltered cards that will set record prices, and a pile of damaged goods which will sell for ten cents on the dollar. Right now it's nearly impossible to distinguish the good from the bad, so a card labeled 8 will sell for an 8 price. But if you knew for sure the 8 was altered, you wouldn't pay anywhere near market value for it.

And if there is any doubt that such technology will be implemented, let me ask you this: is there any area of our lives that isn't being affected by technology? So you know darn well this is going to happen. We don't know when, but I guarantee the new technology will eventually be the standard for this industry.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.
Agreed.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mferronibc View Post
I think PSA is well aware of what a slippery slope this is. Even if they are coming up with more advanced technology to identify alterations in response to what is going on, I think there will be a lot of hesitation to roll it out. They'll basically have thousands of people who paid $$$ for a high graded card 5 years ago resubmitting and now being told the same card is altered and only worth $ and collectors will demand the $$ difference from PSA as it was their oversight in the first place when it was originally graded. Class action anyone??

I think it is going to take a new company with better technology to take on PSA and dethrone them as king (as least initially until this new company becomes just as corrupt over time and we're back where we started).
Lots of excellent insight in all of these posts, but I think the quote above says it best. Any new technology model that's introduced cannot involve or be utilized by PSA. There is just way too much conflict of interest. PSA is never going to take on the massive liability that would result from the thousands of previously slabbed cards being exposed as tainted.

They've already demonstrated they cannot be trusted, and that their only true loyalty is to shareholders and profits. As said earlier, any new TPG that enters the fray must provide a significant point of difference, in order to survive. They cannot just emulate what PSA is doing. Perhaps this includes a radically different grading scale, or simply deeming whether a given card is altered or original. In time, I believe that many collectors would embrace it.

In other words, the time is ripe for a new VEHICLE, baby!


Ps. Agree completely... great tune - great memories - cringe-worthy lyrics.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.
You sir hit the nail right on the head ...what you said is the bottom line

Excellent
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Old 08-07-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.
But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?
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Old 08-07-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?
I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:58 PM
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As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by taul166 View Post
As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?
Aren't we still waiting for PSA to address WIWAG which happened in the early 2000s?
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by markf31 View Post
"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.
Either that or the "cart full of cards" that were guaranteed a minimum grade. Neither claim is particularly credible, IMHO.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:05 PM
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"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle
Jim Peterik (writer & singer of that song and founder of Survivor) wrote an autobiography a couple years back. It's actually really good. Dude is supremely aware of how lucky he's been and has had a hand in a million hit songs.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.
What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:52 PM
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BGS has no grade guarantee, so their buyers are just out of luck. Until they file lawsuits if they choose to. Class action that they are being duped by the appearance of having a fair grading company that is taking payola to give grades to the largest submitters would be one. They are getting skewered on Blowout.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297069

SGC is a small fry (submission numbers wise), but I believe they refunded the first few (unless the auctionhouse did instead) and then stopped refunding and closed their auto auth shop. They did recommend one scammed individual try to get restitution from the fraudster who submitted the card. Then they deleted the "Grade Guarantee" they used to have from their website.
But I'm guessing they're still liable for the guarantee on the cards that were graded while it still existed.

PSA was warned 15+ years ago that they were letting scammers submit cards, and stuck their heads in the sand and let the fraud continue. To me, that is complicit.
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Last edited by swarmee; 08-07-2019 at 07:56 PM. Reason: add link
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:10 PM
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Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by blametony View Post
Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.
The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by blametony View Post
Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.
That's a good question. The card is in a private collection and the owner as far as we know would rather have it "as is" - mislabeled and all, rather than challenge PSA with their buyback guarantee.

I don't know who owns the "next best" Wagner in the PSA Pop Report, but if I owned it, I would make a big stink about the "trimmed" Wagner as it diminishes the value of the "next best" Wagner. Just my two cents.
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:39 PM
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I'm not stunned, it's widely known and hasn't seemed to impact the cards value or ability to be sold.
IOW, the market has said it doesn't care up to this point.
Certainly might be a perspective unique to this copy of this card.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.
The owner has been offer 10 million dollars for the card. The fact that it was cut off a strip instead of coming out of a pack doesn't matter as far as its value. If the value was hurt by Mastro's revelations, you better believe the owner would be holding PSA to their guarantee.
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by blametony View Post
Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.
They havn't addressed the Wagner issue nor have they addressed WIWAG as it seems to be a part of their business model. Seems to me the only way we will see any comment is when/if it comes in front of a judge.

And the Ideas of March, I love Vehicle and most of the Jim Peterik catalog.
Being from the Chicago area I think I have seen him anywhere from concerts to the local grocery store produce department giving a concert as a part of the store's grand opening.
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Old 08-09-2019, 09:12 PM
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What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.
SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

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