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  #1  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:01 PM
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Default PWCC is alive and well

I haven't commented much on PWCC, but I thought many would be interested in seeing this listing that just ended:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1908-PC770-...53.m1438.l2649
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:04 PM
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dunno...a super rare item like that will sell for good money anywhere!
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  #3  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:16 PM
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I was going to bid, but I was reluctant without a HE or Purple Label sticker.
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  #4  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:20 PM
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If PWCC was served with subpoenas and the FBI is supposedly after them then why haven’t they been shut down to operate until the investigation was concluded

It doesn't makes sense to me....

I still can’t get this thought outta my mind that there is a backdoor deal going on with PWCC and his Attorney with the FBI/ Federal Prosecutor and PSA especially in light of his attorneys most recent statements.

The acceptance towards conservation is sickening me.....I have a sick feeling this is where we are headed with this crap

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-11-2019 at 09:23 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:32 PM
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The FBI can't shut down a business just because it is under investigation.
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  #6  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:05 PM
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The FBI can't shut down a business just because it is under investigation.
Thoughts on my second and third points
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  #7  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:24 PM
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Thoughts on my second and third points
It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-11-2019 at 10:31 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:43 PM
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As much as I don't like PWCC, it seemed to be normal bidding. That postcard is super rare and is too rare for its own good. It went too cheap IMHO and the consignor would have dine much better with a reputable AH. Congrats too whoever won it. The Max Stein was pretty goid value as well. It wouldn't surprise me one bit, to see lower prices realized on premium cards. PWCC days of manipulation or turning a blind eye to stuff are over (I hope). Two years or less, they be gone.
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Last edited by BeanTown; 08-11-2019 at 10:45 PM.
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect.
That's my assumption as well.

I am very, very, very far from convinced that there are undetectable serious alterations. I suspect that many to most of these undetected alterations are obvious if examined correctly.

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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.
What I've said many times over the years. If there's nothing wrong with something, then why the reluctance to disclose it? And, of course, the answer is because the person knows there's something wrong with it-- or, more specifically, it lowers the market value. If it raised the value they would say it underlined and in bold, and often in the auction title.

For example: --->> PROFESSIONALL CLEANED!!!!! <<-----

Last edited by drcy; 08-12-2019 at 03:02 AM.
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  #10  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:10 AM
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1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.
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  #11  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:12 AM
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1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.
Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

Last edited by bobbyw8469; 08-12-2019 at 07:13 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:19 AM
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Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?
Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.
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  #13  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:24 AM
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Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.
And Mastro turned into Legendary....before they left. We won't be able to see the ramifications until the indictments come down. I don't think PWCC will perform "business as usual". Hard to say. Too many people are leery, and that CAN NOT be a good thing.
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:28 AM
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Only a matter of time till people stop pulling big money out of their pockets for cards like its burning a hole in it. This is a total sellers market...Much better times to buy are on the horizon/
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:32 AM
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This is a super rare PC. I think Stevenovella had one up on eBay a few months ago, as an auction with $40k minimum bid, but I donít think it sold. Anyway, I agree with a Jay that the card went relatively cheap - in fact, I think the hammer price on the card may indicate the opposite of your hypothesis
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?
No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.
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Last edited by bnorth; 08-12-2019 at 08:01 AM.
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:54 AM
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No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.
It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-12-2019 at 08:56 AM.
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:00 AM
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It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.
I agree but even a complete moron with eventually quit hitting themselves in the thumb with a hammer. It just takes longer for some than others.

I also agree that scammers will do everything they can to keep the scam going. Cash is king, receipt what receipt.
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.
So what's going to happen if a new TPG comes into being using advanced methods to weed out alterations, the result being for a card to hold its value a seller will be forced to have it re slabbed by this new company? Is the government going to shut down this new company because PSA is too big to fail?

The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby. And IMO no rational new buyer will opt for a currently graded PSA card if word has gotten out that they might be tainted and there is another grading alternative. Given the startup costs to create such a new TPG, I think one can safely assume that if this new company is successfully launched, its founders will have been smart enough to have budgeted that which is necessary to effectively market its product and make clear its superiority to current grading methods.

Last edited by benjulmag; 08-12-2019 at 10:06 AM.
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:26 AM
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Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?
but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.
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  #21  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.
Very well stated Ben, but don't worry. "My submissions are popping" and I have such a warm feeling pissing down my leg with excitement... people are such IDIOTS PERIOD

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 08-12-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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  #22  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:29 AM
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but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.
"Poppage" bro. As in "sub popped." As in message board slang for my grades are available.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:50 AM
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"Poppage" bro. As in "sub popped." As in message board slang for my grades are available.
oH, THANK YOU. I was feeling left out. I wanted my subs to Pop too. Even though I never had a submarine.

Just like my resto mod engine is 454 bored to 464. Everyone was asking me if it was "stroked". I never knew what that was but I felt I was missing something? Even though the car has 100K into it, I always wanted a "stroker".... but I never knew WTF they were talking about. I don't know what "bored" means either? But I have it and it feels good.

I do know what "fraudulent scam" means though and this card debacle is the very definition.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:53 AM
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And when you open a pack or box and do well, it's a "nice rip!!"

Since the CU message board deletes ("poofs") anything of substance, it's mostly about poppage and rips.
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  #25  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.
Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:14 AM
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Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.
Of course they donít care. Even the great white knight of the hobby was still bidding in Legendary Auctions after he was banned.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:27 AM
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The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby.
This is true-- and PWCC "investment theories" are premised on recruiting new buyers.

I've often said that the change will be how cards are priced. I've never said that these altered cards will be worthless or not collected, but priced differently. I think in the future, PSA numbers will be priced differently. I've suggested that in the future the price differential between a 9 and a 10 will be different because these micro differences in grade will be perceived differently.

Of course, many of these issues are perceived differently by the person who owns (is invested in) the cards as opposed to the person shopping for cards. The owner often overlooks issues that the shopping is consciously looking fro, the same way that many sellers dismiss (and sometimes omit) information that the buyer wants to know. Even if conservation and alterations are accepted and number gradable, the cards will be priced differently.

Last edited by drcy; 08-12-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:28 AM
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Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.
Brent isn't using something as obvious as bleach, it's some kind of peroxide I believe.
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  #29  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:40 AM
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but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.
I don't cheat....therin lies the rub. You want to piss off a bunch of collectors and hobbyist because of the greed of Moser and Brent. I tell you what. YOU get out of the hobby, and I will be right behind you. Since it's all corrupt anyway.
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  #30  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:51 AM
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Tom Skerritt tells all his new pilots the samething Brent/Moser tells all their new cards.
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  #31  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:12 PM
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oH, THANK YOU. I was feeling left out. I wanted my subs to Pop too. Even though I never had a submarine.

Just like my resto mod engine is 454 bored to 464. Everyone was asking me if it was "stroked". I never knew what that was but I felt I was missing something? Even though the car has 100K into it, I always wanted a "stroker".... but I never knew WTF they were talking about. I don't know what "bored" means either? But I have it and it feels good.

I do know what "fraudulent scam" means though and this card debacle is the very definition.
My brother has been a mechanic for over 40 years so I have learned a little, though not much, about cars and engines. Bored means that the cylinder was bored out to increase the size. This means you also use larger pistons. This increases the total displacement of the engine. In your case it was increased from 454 cubic inches to 464. You get the displacement by getting the volume of each cylinder by measuring the displacement between when the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder to the top. You multiply by the number of cylinders to get the total displacement. Stroked means that you modified the crankshaft so that the piston travels farther into the cylinder which creates greater displacement and power. Those numbers are no longer used as all manufacturers have gone to liters. A 400 engine would be 6.6 liters, a 464 would be around 7 liters..
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  #32  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:13 PM
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I think it comes down to the consignors.

PWCC will be in business as long as they get good "stuff" from their consignors.

Even if I (and others) pass because of bidding on their stuff, enough people will bid to keep prices strong.

And I must admit - I get it.

Even though I will avoid them, if they posted for sale a W572 Walt Barbare - trimmed/doctored/shill bidding/whatever - I would make an exception and bid. Sorry. It's one of my final 3 - and doctored or not - I've been looking for it for years. So if I see it, I'm bidding. I'm sure there are cards others are looking for too, and they will make certain exceptions for (even if I don't think they "should").


So the only question is will consignors still go to PWCC?

The answer to date appears to be YES.
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:36 PM
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I think it comes down to the consignors.

PWCC will be in business as long as they get good "stuff" from their consignors.

Even if I (and others) pass because of bidding on their stuff, enough people will bid to keep prices strong.

And I must admit - I get it.

Even though I will avoid them, if they posted for sale a W572 Walt Barbare - trimmed/doctored/shill bidding/whatever - I would make an exception and bid. Sorry. It's one of my final 3 - and doctored or not - I've been looking for it for years. So if I see it, I'm bidding. I'm sure there are cards others are looking for too, and they will make certain exceptions for (even if I don't think they "should").


So the only question is will consignors still go to PWCC?

The answer to date appears to be YES.
I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.
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  #34  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:42 PM
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I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.
I noticed the same thing myself. Last night, I sold a 1933 Goudey Joe Sewell PSA 2. It brought $35. PWCC sold the same card in a PSA 2.5 (which my '2' looked better than). They brought $65. Just seems that their cards are always bringing in more money for inferior examples. It is like those bidders didn't even see my card.
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
I noticed the same thing myself. Last night, I sold a 1933 Goudey Joe Sewell PSA 2. It brought $35. PWCC sold the same card in a PSA 2.5 (which my '2' looked better than). They brought $65. Just seems that their cards are always bringing in more money for inferior examples. It is like those bidders didn't even see my card.
I'm starting to think there are some buyers who only use eBay for PWCC. Here is one of the winner's of a card a consigned: Link.

If I had seen this on any other PWCC card I would've assumed it was shilled. Another winner had 1600+ feedback and 29% of his bids are with PWCC. They just get more views and more bidders.
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:55 PM
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I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.
I get what you are saying. I have been on eBay since close to the beginning. I have noticed about 1 in 100 sales are a serious PITA. I rarely sell any more but just had one of those A-Holes. Got a NPB so a little over a week after the auction ended for the item I got to relist it so I could really sell it.

Just too bad there wasn't someone who does this ethically on eBay for the same fees PWCC does.
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:02 PM
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1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.
Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:12 PM
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Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.
You are not the only one to have observed potential issues with that right edge.
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:16 PM
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Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.
PWCC sucks...but this is more a reflection on how badly PSA sucks!!!!
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:17 PM
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I just took an acrylic bur to this PSA slab!!!!
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:22 PM
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I just took an acrylic bur to this PSA slab!!!!
That's a lot of work for a slab that pops apart in a half a second.
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:30 PM
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That's a lot of work for a slab that pops apart in a half a second.
haha...it really wasn't...took 30 seconds or so...and it was more fun!!!!!
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:51 PM
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If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:02 PM
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So if you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?
Likely that business would be out of business.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:03 PM
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Likely that business would be out of business.
True at some point but it was a hypothetical.
Plus it's Monday.
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Last edited by HRBAKER; 08-12-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:04 PM
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If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?
similarly if you had a used car and the carfax which evaluated your used car was shown to be incapable of accurately evaluating your car...resulting in lots of disgruntled purchasers of these used cars...how long would carfax/PSA be in business?

But the facts show that this hobby is predicated on corrupt practices...and most don't care...so as many of you like to say...the beat will go on!
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:11 PM
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If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?
Most people would be lined up around the block to consign and buy from them. Then those in line would be calling the 3 people trying to tell them the place is dishonest names and making silly excuses for the dishonest dealer.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:18 PM
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I'm still a consignor.

I had a bunch of PSA graded 1940 Play Ball cards and, because of the scandal, I decided to sell the majority myself. I still sent a handful to PWCC (mostly doubles) which ended yesterday.

I'll tell you, the PWCC cards did significantly better than the ones I decided to sell on my own. Not only that, but one of the copies I sold was returned because the buyer didn't like the style of PSA holder (seriously). I regret going through the effort and putting in the time to sell these myself just to deal with idiots on ebay and get less for my efforts.

I'll keep trying to move away from PWCC, but it's difficult to justify the amount of work to sell things yourself. It's significantly more work for less pay.
Itís true... they get so many more sets of eyes than any individual collector/seller could ever hope to reach. Thatís why it would take a really concerted boycott effort for them to even feel anything. It would require a prioritization of ethics over money.

But because of the money motivator, this will likely never happen. Thatís why the FBI investigation is so critical. I fear that they are the only entity that can put a stop to this deception.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:30 PM
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Itís true... they get so many more sets of eyes than any individual collector/seller could ever hope to reach. Thatís why it would take a really concerted boycott effort for them to even feel anything. It would require a prioritization of ethics over money.

But because of the money motivator, this will likely never happen. Thatís why the FBI investigation is so critical. I fear that they are the only entity that can put a stop to this deception.
I'd imagine for most of the consignors, it's a time motivator. It takes hours to scan, list and ship items on eBay.

Also, ironically, PWCC protects me from fraud and bad actors on eBay. Every month I have to deal with scam artists on eBay trying to take advantage of me. It costs real time and money.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:45 PM
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Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......it’s all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

Even with all the disgust I can still find a way to laugh at this !!

Thank The Good Lord For Vintage N/T/R/E Non Sport Cards :-)

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-12-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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