1869 vs 1870 Red Stocking CdVs

[GaryPassamonte]

I thought it was interesting that two of the Cincinnati Red Stocking CdVs in REA have different dates penciled on the reverse. The one with the Peck and Snyder ad has an "1869" written on the back, while the one with the team lineup on the reverse has "1870" written on the back. If these notations are period, this would confirm different printing and/or distribution dates for the Cincinnati CdVs, with only the ones with the P & S ad on the reverse being from 1869. Both of these CdVs were from the same find and dates penciled on the reverses of others from this find appear accurate. It's unfortunate that the Atlantics P & S card has no date notation on the reverse. That information would have been an important clue in dating the P & S series.

[Matt]

Would seem odd to me that someone at the time would write the year of issue on the back. I'd give that more credence if it was a different team photo and they wanted to denote what yea'rs Red Stockings team it was, but it's the same photo.

[WillowGrove]

I recently acquired a P&S trade card (as posted in may pick-ups, holy grail thread and plan on posting in any appropriate threads even tangentially-related to P&S since I am so excited about owning this card. )

- and my goal is to find out who took the photo, when and then how they were distributed.

Gary et al - correct me if I am wrong - but the definitive answers to those questions still remain. Right? I need to find a source that show the winning streak game by game. I also know the woodcut was in Harpers Weekly on 7/3/69 but need to confirm it is the same photo, etc.

Thanks for starting a new P&S thread.

happy collecting

peter

[GaryPassamonte]

Peter- Congratulations on acquiring the Cincinnati P & S card. There are many unanswered questions concerning the P & S issue. There are also many past threads about these questions. Do a P & S search on this site to find these threads.

[benjulmag]

In a previous thread the question of the distribution period of the Red Stockings P&S trade card was discussed. It is my view that distribution ran continuously from the 1869 season well into (and possibly through) the 1870 season. This assessment is based on the different advertising backs as well as different ink colors used. Assuming this assessment is correct, it wouldn't be surprising if the CdV too had 1869 and 1870 distributions.

[barrysloate]

Agree with Corey. I have to think these tarde cards were very popular, and would have been offered for several years. In the case of the 1868 Brooklyn Atlantics, there was likely only a single print run. But with a team like Cincinnati, there were probably several. The key is to figure out which one was first, something we haven't done yet.

[barrysloate]

Here's something interesting: lot #20 in the REA Auction is a photographic trade card of the 1870 White Stockings. The ad on the back is new to me, and as the catalogue states it may or may not have been issued by Peck and Snyder. So who else was distributing these cards?

[WillowGrove]

Thanks guys - yep. read the old threads before after and since I acquired my P&S. (trade card/b&w Peck caricature back/black type).

You all have provided many vital pieces of info and hypotheses.

So interesting. barry, I actually purchased a reprint of that Roff book - it does mention the cards 'found a ready sale'. even that nugget is so interesting to me.

I did see this morning that the red legs season began on May 3 and they were presented with that huge bat after going, I believe 23-0.

Forgive me if I rehash areas that have aleady been discussed - i shall try not to, but if that game with the presentation bat was played in Cinci, the fanfair created the impetus for the photo? Of course the photo could have been taken
- once all the players arrived in Cinci before the season began.
- by a NYC or other major city photographer who paid them/Wright for their photo
-after the end of their 57-0 season (or has past research ruled this out?)
-at anytime during the season or beginning of 1870.

I look forward to finding out information like:
-when was the first time all the players were together
-what photographers were in Cinci who could have shot the photo
-when did the hoopla over this team really begin (vague ques but it would give a feel for when the photo could have been shot)
-was the photo created to be sold or for team momento?
-what was their schedule so we can see when they played in specific cities

and more I am sure.

for now I gotta get to work or else I'll be a full time researcher (which would be great).

thanks for any guidance.

peter

[oldjudge]

Barry-I believe that the only Cincinnati CdV that we can date conclusively is the one with the 1869 Chadwick book ad back. That we know has to be 1869. The Peck & Snyder ad back with the Ann St address should also be 1869 or 1870. However, the others could have been later and, I guess, could have been issued by anyone. I would think that other entities besides P&S could have acquired the rights to use this photo (or used it without acquiring the rights).

BTW, what P&S address is on the back of the Atlantics trade card?

[barrysloate]

Jay- I used to think that the P & S of Cincinnati was the first one out of the gate, but I agree with you that it now seems like the CdV's were issued first. Regarding the Atlantics, no street address is visible. But the ubiquitous ballplayer/equipment ad is on the reverse. The Atlantics were champions in 1868, so that would be the year the team would have been most popular. By 1869 the Red Stockings were the toast of the town. Not sure how popular the 1868 Brooklyn club would have been at that point.

[GaryPassamonte]

Jay- The Chadwick book could have been advertised post-1869 also. I don't think there is absolute certainty about any back being 1869, 1870, etc.

[oldjudge]

Gary-I disagree. I would think that there would be no sense advertising the 1869 book in 1870--there was probably a new book then,

[GaryPassamonte]

After reading the back of your CdV Jay, I have to agree.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WillowGrove

I need to find a source that show the winning streak game by game. I also know the woodcut was in Harpers Weekly on 7/3/69 but need to confirm it is the same photo, etc.

Peter, many of these games are detailed in Preston Orem's book: "Baseball 1845-1881". If you don't have a copy, you should pick one up - very useful and fun read.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Gary-I disagree. I would think that there would be no sense advertising the 1869 book in 1870--there was probably a new book then,

Certainly a good point but a leap of faith, to me, nonetheless. Maybe the book came out in 1869 and it flopped....so they decided to advertise it in 1870. Maybe there was a new book in 1870 maybe not. Until we see more proof it's all conjecture....,but good points.

[oldjudge]

Leon-More than conjecture, my friend. Here is an ad from a book seller for the 1870 edition. He also had an 1867 edition. This was an annual publication.

1870 - "Baseball Players Book of Reference" by Henry Chadwick

138-pg booklet 4"x6", front cover missing, onion-skin type pages, some at front loosely attached, at the back unattached. Has first page, then jumps to page 20 "Rules and Regulations...". Doesn't look like anything is missing - has basically the same information as the 1867 book described above, includingthe same engravings except for the baseball field/pitcher at front, with the exception of a few introductory pages introducing the sport. This book also includes 18 pages of Peck & Snyder sporting goods ads at the back, including engravings of a baseball shirt, pants, shoes, runners, etc. This is the earliest collection of baseball equipment ads I have ever seen. In 1868. Another significant item: in 1868 "safe hits" was added to score-keeping and detailed instructions on the "new statistic" have been added to this book. Before this, it didn't matter how you reached base!

[barrysloate]

Chadwick published various guides every year from the late 1860's well into the 1870's.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by WillowGrove

I also know the woodcut was in Harpers Weekly on 7/3/69 but need to confirm it is the same photo, etc.

Here's my Harper's Woodcut for comparison.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon-More than conjecture, my friend. Here is an ad from a book seller for the 1870 edition. He also had an 1867 edition. This was an annual publication.

1870 - "Baseball Players Book of Reference" by Henry Chadwick

138-pg booklet 4"x6", front cover missing, onion-skin type pages, some at front loosely attached, at the back unattached. Has first page, then jumps to page 20 "Rules and Regulations...". Doesn't look like anything is missing - has basically the same information as the 1867 book described above, includingthe same engravings except for the baseball field/pitcher at front, with the exception of a few introductory pages introducing the sport. This book also includes 18 pages of Peck & Snyder sporting goods ads at the back, including engravings of a baseball shirt, pants, shoes, runners, etc. This is the earliest collection of baseball equipment ads I have ever seen. In 1868. Another significant item: in 1868 "safe hits" was added to score-keeping and detailed instructions on the "new statistic" have been added to this book. Before this, it didn't matter how you reached base!

Hi Jay
Thanks for posting this. I re-read it a few times and I am not seeing how this dates the CDV definitively to 1869. Can you help explain that? I am sure you are onto something but am not seeing it though I am sure I will eventually. Sometimes I am kind of slow to see stuff. Thanks for all of the info too.....

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by triwak

Here's my Harper's Woodcut for comparison.

Thanks for posting woodcut ken. So the wood cut is the same as the photo on the card. (most of you probably already knew that - I am late to the P&S party). But the attribute at the bottom of the woodcut - I assume that is the company who did the woodcut? I am sure there is a thread explaining how woodcuts were developed so I can learn more. But if that is printer/woodcut artist, then can we assume the photo was taken from the time the team congregated (other warm location? nah. Cinci is warm enough in April), so roughly, and I am making this up April 15 - July 3.

I would like to find more info on the dates Wright/ Ellard? signed these players officially and when they came to Cinici.

Sorry if I am half laying out specific info that we can build on and half excitedly typing. I'll get more focused.

Thanks RunScott for Orem's book. Will add to my library.

peter

[oldjudge]

Leon-Chadwick published his Base Ball Player's Book of Reference annually. The CdV advertises the 1869 edition on the back(it specifically mentions the 1869 edition). Why would it advertise the 1869 version if it was not from 1869? If it came out in 1870 it would advertise the 1870 edition.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon-Chadwick published his Base Ball Player's Book of Reference annually. The CdV advertises the 1869 edition on the back(it specifically mentions the 1869 edition). Why would it advertise the 1869 version if it was not from 1869? If it came out in 1870 it would advertise the 1870 edition.

ok...thanks Jay....Point well taken. Until otherwise proven definitively I agree with you. I can think of reasons to advertise it later, as I stated, but your analysis makes sense. That being said I wouldn't fall out of my rocker if we found an ad for the cards saying something different. So I guess the summation is we believe the cards that advertise the 1869 book to be from 1869 and the others may or may not be....would that be correct?

edited to add - Jay and I spoke and all is ok in Peck-and-Snydersvillle ,.....always my pleasure.