Babe Ruth single-signed baseball... but with TTA Authentication

[Fredskinz]

Offered this single-signed Babe Ruth baseball, but it comes with TTA Authentication. Any thoughts on the auto or TTA in general. I've heard bad things... Thanks!

[thetruthisoutthere]

You should ask Ted Taylor (TTA and Stat Authentic) why he's on Ebay's "Banned COA" list.

[RichardSimon]

ted@tedtaylor.com,,, I suggest you write to him and ask him.

[mr2686]

Run away, run away.

[Fredskinz]

I think I have my answer... thank you all... much appreciated

[BrandonG]

That's one of the "transferred" Ruth's from eBay.

[Fredskinz]

Thanks Brandon... Can you explain what that means or is there another post that has a detailed explanation?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Run away, run away.

Yes, TTA means stay away.

[Big Dave]

If the guy had not mentioned TTA, would your opinions be the same? I personally think that guy made a mistake mentioning that instead just asking your opinions. Automatically you condemned the autograph because it was TTA certified.

[steve B]

I'm not much good with autographs, but even I see problems with this one. It just doesn't look like handwriting - Anyones handwriting- even an autopen does better.

It does look printed.

Steve B

[Splinte1941]

I'd love to see the ball it's signed on.

It's a fabulous fake signature and anyone on this board would be hard pressed to say it was a fake if TTA wasn't mentioned.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

I'd love to see the ball it's signed on.

It's a fabulous fake signature and anyone on this board would be hard pressed to say it was a fake if TTA wasn't mentioned.

jake, you hit it on the head.

that's why i say that even the biggest companies dont know what they are doing on ruth, becasue if this exact autograph had abc, or xyz authentication everyone would drool over it and wouldn't question it. no lie. and if someone questioned abc and xyz's expertise, the defenders would defend them to the death on this autograph if they said it was good.

their line is that its ALWAYS junk if it is tta (I won't defend them, it might be,) but on the other hand it is ALWAYS fabulous if it is abc or xyz. that's why the whole authentication game as it stands right now is junk, just look at all the ruths that abc and xyz cert and tell me that they are all good.

Ruth's siganture has been so corrupted it's almost impossible to tell anymore.

look at this ebay auction with certification and tell me a dime's worth of difference between the signatures on the two balls. if the psa one had been certed by tta, people would have feigned outrage over the 'crap' certed by tta. It's a game of names and trying to pump one up to increase value of LOA's in one's collection by never questioning them and bashing all the others.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BABE-RUTH-AU...item19cff491e0

now here come all the babe ruth experts, let me have it!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Ted Taylor doesn't deserve the respect for anything that he has authenticated to get consideration that it might be authentic, even if he gets lucky once-in-awhile. That's how I feel about Ted Taylor. My disdain for him runs deep.

Has anyone seen a Ted Taylor certed autograph that they can say is authentic? I haven't.

Yes, this thread has gone off-track a bit, but just the mention of Ted Taylor does that to me.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

If the guy had not mentioned TTA, would your opinions be the same? I personally think that guy made a mistake mentioning that instead just asking your opinions. Automatically you condemned the autograph because it was TTA certified.

This is a very good point. I wish the OP had done as you say. However, I have to echo what was posted above. I have seen so damn much garbage certed by TTA that I cannot accept anything with the cert.

[Deertick]

Serious question: Why does it look like it is a Pony League (was gonna say Babe Ruth League) ball that was signed in crayon?

If authentic, what ball / writing implement combo would it be?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by travrosty

...on the other hand it is ALWAYS fabulous if it is abc or xyz.

look at this ebay auction with certification...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BABE-RUTH-AU...item19cff491e0

I'm wondering how a 1940s style Ruth signature found its way onto a pre-1925 OAL baseball.

[Fredskinz]

Thanks Steve... Big Dave- I've been collecting for years, but have never come across TTA (not sure why)... But I research everything... He sent me the pics, and once he finally offered up who the COA was with, I immediately researched the company... Once I realized there were issues, I posted here... I had no preconceived notions about TTA, but since it wasnt a PSA, JSA, GAI, etc, I decided to investigate further... I'm very glad a forum like this exists so collectors have a place to gather further knowledge about the hobby... Lesson learned

[travrosty]

because everything tta certs is assumed bad, and everything the big 2 certs is assumed good, you can have nearly identical, interchangeable autographs being certed by both and one is obviously bad and one is obviously good just by looking at who certed it? it's the cart before the horse. we aren't certing autographs anymore, the autographs are certing the companies?

it should be about the autographs. what makes the psa one good and the TTA one bad? they look the same. people who can't tell will say that the track record of the companies makes one good and one bad, but that's not being honest about what the autographs look like. they look the same. they are interchangeable.

if psa certed the tta one, and tta certed the psa one, opinions about these autograph would flip around and the good one would now be bad, and the bad good, but it's about the autographs and not the authenticators. You can't say this is bad because of who certed it and this is good because of who certed it. if you do, then you have an opinion about the authenticators and not the autographs.

the autographs should be able to pass or fail a blind test, and in this case, a blind test of these two ruth autographs would confuse and stymie people, because they look the same, and people wouldnt know what to think about these because they don't have a preconceived idea of how they should feel because they don't know if psa certed it or tta did.

but its easy to say fake or real by working backwards and look at who authenticated it first then coming to that conclusion instead of looking at the autograph first and coming to the conclusion. that works sometimes but not all the time and by doing it that way, it's an opinion of the authenticators, but not the autographs themselves.

[Wymers Auction]

On the TTA example I think the A is too big and tall and the ascender on the h is too short. Just my guess

[steve B]

The one with the red and blue stitches was done with a pen by someone.

The one with just red stitching does not look like it was done by a person.

They bear only a passing resemblance to each other, in the details they aren't even close.

Steve B

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by steve B

The one with the red and blue stitches was done with a pen by someone.

The one with just red stitching does not look like it was done by a person.

I agree with this.

I don't have the knowledge to comment on the authenticity of either, but the one with the red and blue stitching has an appearance of flow, as in the ink was paid down by a pen.

The ball with the red stitching only has a flat appearance almost as if it was applied with a stamp. Note the small areas of white within the strokes... like the ink did not get down into recessed pores.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

I'd love to see the ball it's signed on.

It's a fabulous fake signature and anyone on this board would be hard pressed to say it was a fake if TTA wasn't mentioned.

Jake, I would love to know what you mean by "It's a fabulous fake signature and anyone on this board would be hard pressed to say it was a fake if TTA wasn't mentioned."

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Note the small areas of white within the strokes... like the ink did not get down into recessed pores.

That is how we can tell a rubber stamped signature on flats, using a loupe and looking for the white areas.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Jake, I would love to know what you mean by "It's a fabulous fake signature and anyone on this board would be hard pressed to say it was a fake if TTA wasn't mentioned."

i think its a pretty straightforward statement.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i think its a pretty straightforward statement.

Travis, are you related to Jake or a spokesperson for him? I am asking Jake.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Travis, are you related to Jake or a spokesperson for him? I am asking Jake.

Thanks Travis.

I meant what I said. If that's not straightforward enough for you, I can't help that.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

Thanks Travis.

I meant what I said. If that's not straightforward enough for you, I can't help that.

So, Jake, based on your comment, you're calling that Babe Ruth a "pretty good forgery." Correct?

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

So, Jake, based on your comment, you're calling that Babe Ruth a "pretty good forgery." Correct?

I don't know what it is. If its a forgery I would say yes, it's better than others that I've been told are forgeries.

Your little game is what gets me. How can anyone claim they are an "expert" in these autographs? From studying alleged authentic versions?

At the end of the day it's a maddening series of guesses based on provenance, a few unquestioned examples and anything else you want to throw into the mix.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

I don't know what it is. If its a forgery I would say yes, it's better than others that I've been told are forgeries.

Your little game is what gets me. How can anyone claim they are an "expert" in these autographs? From studying alleged authentic versions?

At the end of the day it's a maddening series of guesses based on provenance, a few unquestioned examples and anything else you want to throw into the mix.

For someone who doesn't know me, you sure have a lot to say. In all of the years I've been writing and doing videos on autographs, I have never claimed to be an expert.

What's "your little game," Jake?

By the way, there are two obvious items wrong with that ball that I observed immediately. And no, I will not share what I know. Only one other person here knows what I am referring to.

[Splinte1941]

[QUOTE=thetruthisoutthere;993760]For someone who doesn't know me, you sure have a lot to say. In all of the years I've been writing and doing videos on autographs, I have never claimed to be an expert.

What's "your little game," Jake?

By the way, there are two obvious items wrong with that ball that I observed immediately. And no, I will not share what I know. Only one other person here knows what I am referring to.[/

I'm playing games!?!? Read your last post.

[travrosty]

Jake, you figured it out.

if its a abc or xyz guesstimate, then its always good in the minds of some who only care about the company name on the cert, if it's not then its always bad. the actual autograph is of little consequence anymore.

they know no more about ruth than anyone else. Ruth's autograph has been corrupted beyond repair by all these certifications, many which look the same as the certifications by the companies they don't like and always call fake.

Switch the two balls around that i showed with the authentications, and the "good" one would still be fabulous and the tta one still fake, just like it is right now only vice versa.

it's a shell game only there is no ball under any of the shells. so people don't bother looking under the shells anymore. if the shell says company ABC on it, then people will trust there is a ball under there, and any other name on the shell, they will call it bad, whether the company deserves the criticism or not.

Jake, the shells are glued down. You lose and the people on the inner circle with connections that are close to these companies win. And you will never be in that group.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i think its a pretty straightforward statement.

Travis, you and I have major differences of opinions when it comes to the hobby, and at this point, we probably don't like each other.

Approximately a month ago I stopped myself from allowing you to bait me into those petty squabbles that we would go back & forth on (the ones that would piss off the other members and I don't blame for being pissed) and I would like to keep it that way. The other two members here that used to bait me, are on my ignore list, so I can no longer see their comments.

So, with all due respect, if I address a certain member with a question, please don't reply to it. I have no idea why you continue to bait me, but I ask that you stop for the sake of the other members.

[Splinte1941]

Oh, I've figured it out Travis. The entire thing is comical. I applaud the big two for understanding the market, cornering it, and then, as you correctly pointed out, making their COAs more valuable than the signatures they are rubber-stamping. It's total genius and as businessmen, they should be applauded. As authenticators, that's for someone else to decide.

[travrosty]

I dont dislilke you, you are okay.


I am not baiting anybody. i have my opinion too. free speech is for everybody.

like you said, there is an ignore button. i dont have anyone on ignore, but if you want to , use it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

[QUOTE=Splinte1941;993764]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

For someone who doesn't know me, you sure have a lot to say. In all of the years I've been writing and doing videos on autographs, I have never claimed to be an expert.

What's "your little game," Jake?

By the way, there are two obvious items wrong with that ball that I observed immediately. And no, I will not share what I know. Only one other person here knows what I am referring to.[/

I'm playing games!?!? Read your last post.

There's a lot of information that I cannot share for numerous reasons. It is what it is.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

I dont dislilke you, you are okay.


I am not baiting anybody. i have my opinion too. free speech is for everybody.

like you said, there is an ignore button. i dont have anyone on ignore, but if you want to , use it.

Travis, I would never put you ignore as I enjoy reading your comments. All I ask is that we spare the members taking up space with our squabbles. What I mean by that, is, when you would post something about PSA/JSA and I would post my Mueller comments & files. I think we can agree that we got a little childish with that, and that's why I eventually stopped.

Of course, I expect us to have our differences of opinions on certain subjects. It is what it is. As long as we keep it civil, it's all good, Travis.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

as businessmen, they should be applauded. As authenticators, that's for someone else to decide.

Large amounts of money spent on advertising is what helped PSA to corner the market. Then Jimmy Spence left PSA but he benefited from the money that had already been spent on advertising.
As authenticators they are no better, and maybe worse, than the top dealers that I have listed here many times,,, Stinson, Gordon, Albersheim, Keating, Corcoran, Cariseo and Lelands and Alexander Autographs for auction houses. None of these I have named use third party authentication. They don't have to. They don't want to. They will dispute the myth that you have to have your stuff authenticated by a TPA in order to sell it. I would also trust the opinion of Ron Keurajian over any of the TPA's.
One of the TPA's just had two VERY high priced single signed baseballs removed from ebay despite COA's.
Collectors continue to make the mistake of rating the TPA's as the best in the business, that if you don't have a TPA cert. with an item, you can never be sure if it is good. Well I have listed many items here over the years where that is not the case. I am aware of many more items where that is not the case. (anyone thinking of Donavon now?).
If collectors stay with good dealers and don't keep trying to look for those great deals (we have seen that lately here) then maybe we can help clean up the hobby.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The other two members here that used to bait me, are on my ignore list, so I can no longer see their comments.

That ignore list is the numero uno app on Net54 .

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by richardsimon

large amounts of money spent on advertising is what helped psa to corner the market. Then jimmy spence left psa but he benefited from the money that had already been spent on advertising.
As authenticators they are no better, and maybe worse, than the top dealers that i have listed here many times,,, stinson, gordon, albersheim, keating, corcoran, cariseo and lelands and alexander autographs for auction houses. None of these i have named use third party authentication. They don't have to. They don't want to. They will dispute the myth that you have to have your stuff authenticated by a tpa in order to sell it. I would also trust the opinion of ron keurajian over any of the tpa's.
One of the tpa's just had two very high priced single signed baseballs removed from ebay despite coa's.
Collectors continue to make the mistake of rating the tpa's as the best in the business, that if you don't have a tpa cert. With an item, you can never be sure if it is good. Well i have listed many items here over the years where that is not the case. I am aware of many more items where that is not the case. (anyone thinking of donavon now?).
If collectors stay with good dealers and don't keep trying to look for those great deals (we have seen that lately here) then maybe we can help clean up the hobby.

like

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Jake, you figured it out.

if its a abc or xyz guesstimate, then its always good in the minds of some who only care about the company name on the cert, if it's not then its always bad. the actual autograph is of little consequence anymore.

I'm not sure where you can point to anybody saying "I don't need to look at the auto, it's PSA/DNA and/or JSA."

There are a helluva lot of us willing to dismiss a TTA certed ball without looking at the sig, though. For me, PSA or JSA means I will look at the auto. TTA, Morales, AAU, many others, I'm done. They may (in a snowball's chance) be real, but I'm done. Not worth my time.

Originally Posted by travrosty

they know no more about ruth than anyone else. Ruth's autograph has been corrupted beyond repair by all these certifications, many which look the same as the certifications by the companies they don't like and always call fake.

Switch the two balls around that i showed with the authentications, and the "good" one would still be fabulous and the tta one still fake, just like it is right now only vice versa.

You're right about Ruth. The forgers have practiced a lot with his auto, as the prices are too good not to have.

Originally Posted by travrosty

it's a shell game only there is no ball under any of the shells. so people don't bother looking under the shells anymore. if the shell says company ABC on it, then people will trust there is a ball under there, and any other name on the shell, they will call it bad, whether the company deserves the criticism or not.

Jake, the shells are glued down. You lose and the people on the inner circle with connections that are close to these companies win. And you will never be in that group.

Again, where can you point to examples of net54 members blindly accepting any cert? Maybe there are numerous examples, but I don't see them. You can continue to get pissed off that people are dismissing this auto because of a non-alphabet cert, but nothing you say will stop me from doing so.

And here's the thing: most (not all) of the PSA and JSA certed autos I've seen have been legit. Keep posting counter-examples here; I enjoy and learn when you do. But most are legit. That means when I see their cert, I look closer. But there are other certs with which I don't bother looking closer. This ball has one of them.

[Fredskinz]

Didn't think I would have started World War III with my little Babe Ruth post... Sorry all... Newbie mistake!

My take is this ... I have a Rolex watch and I also have a fake Rolex watch... When I wear the fake one, I don't care that it's fake... It runs, it looks nice and no one knows the difference... It still functions as a time piece and a fashion piece even though its fake... But when I buy memorabilia, it's not so black and white... I personally can't enjoy a fake ball or jersey that is supposed to be authentic... Its functionality is solely based on its authenticity... Therefore, due to the current state of the hobby, I HAVE to use these certificates as some sort of guide, because I just can't bring myseld to proudly display a fake Babe Ruth autograph..

Being new here, I don't know if members have certain agendas or what have you, I'm just glad that there is a forum to bounce these sort of questions off of other interested collectors...

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Fredskinz

Didn't think I would have started World War III with my little Babe Ruth post... Sorry all... Newbie mistake!

My take is this ... I have a Rolex watch and I also have a fake Rolex watch... When I wear the fake one, I don't care that it's fake... It runs, it looks nice and no one knows the difference... It still functions as a time piece and a fashion piece even though its fake... But when I buy memorabilia, it's not so black and white... I personally can't enjoy a fake ball or jersey that is supposed to be authentic... Its functionality is solely based on its authenticity... Therefore, due to the current state of the hobby, I HAVE to use these certificates as some sort of guide, because I just can't bring myseld to proudly display a fake Babe Ruth autograph..

Being new here, I don't know if members have certain agendas or what have you, I'm just glad that there is a forum to bounce these sort of questions off of other interested collectors...

No worries. You didn't start anything that hasn't been going on for quite awhile. You just need to know it's not a simple as having an autograph authenticated by the big two authentication groups. They make mistakes, and although I don't believe those mistakes are malicious, they do occur. As for judging the Cert and not the autograph, all I can say is that I would not look any further at an autograph if I saw it was authenticated by the J. Dimaggio company and I don't think anyone else here would either. How that applies to some of the other companies out there is for you to decide.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Fredskinz

Didn't think I would have started World War III with my little Babe Ruth post... Sorry all... Newbie mistake!

My take is this ... I have a Rolex watch and I also have a fake Rolex watch... When I wear the fake one, I don't care that it's fake... It runs, it looks nice and no one knows the difference... It still functions as a time piece and a fashion piece even though its fake... But when I buy memorabilia, it's not so black and white... I personally can't enjoy a fake ball or jersey that is supposed to be authentic... Its functionality is solely based on its authenticity... Therefore, due to the current state of the hobby, I HAVE to use these certificates as some sort of guide, because I just can't bring myseld to proudly display a fake Babe Ruth autograph..

Being new here, I don't know if members have certain agendas or what have you, I'm just glad that there is a forum to bounce these sort of questions off of other interested collectors...

Yes, please bounce away! That is what these forums are for.

I totally get what you are saying about peace of mind when it comes to collectibles. With autographs, if you didn't see the person sign it, than authenticity will always be a percentage. Other people get paid to give an opinion, and you need to figure out whose (if anyone's) opinion might add value or not, and then educate yourself on the item and signature as much as you can. This last part is the only thing that can give you true peace of mind.

And, as has been pointed out, that is easier said than done with Ruth. The fakers have gotten really good with his auto, unfortunately.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Maybe FredSkinz can reveal his real name here for us.

[jgmp123]

Great Post FredSkinz.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Fredskinz

Didn't think I would have started World War III with my little Babe Ruth post... Sorry all... Newbie mistake!

My take is this ... I have a Rolex watch and I also have a fake Rolex watch... When I wear the fake one, I don't care that it's fake... It runs, it looks nice and no one knows the difference... It still functions as a time piece and a fashion piece even though its fake... But when I buy memorabilia, it's not so black and white... I personally can't enjoy a fake ball or jersey that is supposed to be authentic... Its functionality is solely based on its authenticity... Therefore, due to the current state of the hobby, I HAVE to use these certificates as some sort of guide, because I just can't bring myseld to proudly display a fake Babe Ruth autograph..

Being new here, I don't know if members have certain agendas or what have you, I'm just glad that there is a forum to bounce these sort of questions off of other interested collectors...

Fred, you hit the nail on the head. I recently purchased a signed photo. The signature itself I'm told is questionable, however, as a collector of this player, the photograph itself was too good for me to pass up. I've never seen another like it and it came (I'm told) directly from his estate. Good enough for me.

If I were to receive PSA or JSA COA's on it, great. If not, I'm still happy with the photo as it's probably one of a kind. I'll never know if the guy signed it or not, regardless of COA's, but I can sleep at night knowing the photo is an original and unique. I collect vintage photos, so that's my angle. I probably wouldn't feel the same way about a vintage baseball that was forged, but that's just my preference.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Large amounts of money spent on advertising is what helped PSA to corner the market. Then Jimmy Spence left PSA but he benefited from the money that had already been spent on advertising.
As authenticators they are no better, and maybe worse, than the top dealers that I have listed here many times,,, Stinson, Gordon, Albersheim, Keating, Corcoran, Cariseo and Lelands and Alexander Autographs for auction houses. None of these I have named use third party authentication. They don't have to. They don't want to. They will dispute the myth that you have to have your stuff authenticated by a TPA in order to sell it. I would also trust the opinion of Ron Keurajian over any of the TPA's.
One of the TPA's just had two VERY high priced single signed baseballs removed from ebay despite COA's.
Collectors continue to make the mistake of rating the TPA's as the best in the business, that if you don't have a TPA cert. with an item, you can never be sure if it is good. Well I have listed many items here over the years where that is not the case. I am aware of many more items where that is not the case. (anyone thinking of Donavon now?).
If collectors stay with good dealers and don't keep trying to look for those great deals (we have seen that lately here) then maybe we can help clean up the hobby.

agreed, they are resting on the laurels that were bought for them, and just because an item does not have a golden ticket loa from the top 2, doesnt mean that its a fake, like they want you to believe.

i also trust some of the good dealers and guys with experience over some anonymous person who i dont even know the name of who might have glanced at my autograph for a few sparse seconds, and just because their company name is whoopdedoo and whoopdedoo#2 I am suppose to be impressed?

they can start by telling me exactly who looked at the autograph, maybe showing a few exemplars when asked, admitting a mistake when they make one and making it right, but they do not.

[Big Dave]

+1

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Serious question: Why does it look like it is a Pony League (was gonna say Babe Ruth League) ball that was signed in crayon?

If authentic, what ball / writing implement combo would it be?

Now that this thread has calmed down a bit, can anyone answer the above?

[Fredskinz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Maybe FredSkinz can reveal his real name here for us.

Real name is Fred... Redskins fan since birth, thus Fredskinz