Steve Garvey

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

And that's the problem Sabermetrics. The "eye test" is more important than any "formula." If you take advanced statistics, that is one of the first things that you are taught. With sabermaticians, they say if your observations don't fit their formula, ignore them. That is unscientific. Scientists make their formulas fit their observations.

I disagree on Grich. Like Simmons, he is better than mistakes in the HOF. He is not top 10 in my opinion. He is not even the best 2b not in the HOF, that is Lou Whitaker. He is not a slam dunk, but I am fine with him in or out of HOF once Whitaker and Garvey are in.

We do agree that Garvey would be towards the bottom of the 1st basemen in the HOF. I just have him a lot higher than you. I have him only behind Keith Hernandez, who along with Alan Trammell are my 2 slam dunks. If we are taking guys who in my mind are marginal candidates, I would take a winner like Garvey and guys who had higher peaks like Mattingly and Murphy. Guys who everyone knew were superstars, but just were not for long enough. It is the Hall of Fame with emphasis on fame, not being above average for a long time.

I can definitely see your point regarding players with a higher peak that could not sustain it for a lengthy period of time. As you said, guys like Murphy or Mattingly. No doubt they should be in the conversation. I also agree that Hernandez and Trammell should be in wthout a doubt. I have Whitaker a bit below Grich but Whitaker should be in as well. He is either top 10 or at worst top 12 all time for 2B.

I'll add a few pitchers I think should get some extra consideration. None are slam dunks but all should get much more of a look:

Kevin Brown
David Cone
Bille Pierce
Rick Reuschel
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb

I also think that Willie Randolph should get more of a look than he has gotten.

Heinie Groh and Stan Hack and Darrell Evans should get more of a look. Graig Nettles should be in.

Minnie Minoso should be in. Jimmy Wynn should get more of a look. Dwight Evans should be in. Reggie Smith should be in. Dick Allen should be in. Gary Sheffield should get far more love than he has.

And Edgar Martinez needs to get in.

Tom C