Vintage Cards graded 8/9/10

[Matt]

In your estimation, what percentage of cards that are 50+ years old that reside in TPG slabs graded 8, 9 or 10 have been trimmed?

(yes, the percentage options are not comprehensive)

[Jim VB]

Overall, I think the percentage is pretty small (under 5%.) But the more valuable the card, and the older it is, I think the percentage climbs.

Edited to add: Despite the low %, the vast number of cards could still be huge.


Maybe a poll is needed?

[calvindog]

I don't know the answer to that because it would be mere speculation; what is not speculation, however, is that 100% of the 8s, 9s and 10s in slabs are worth more than the untrimmed 5s, 6s and 7s.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don't know the answer to that because it would be mere speculation;

Jeff - that's the point - it's a gauge on collector perception, not on the cards themselves.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don't know the answer to that because it would be mere speculation; what is not speculation, however, is that 100% of the 8s, 9s and 10s in slabs are worth more than the untrimmed 5s, 6s and 7s.

Just imagine if you were an alchemist and could turn one into the other.

[barrysloate]

Matt- I think you mean 8/9/10...fix your heading.

Of course this is all speculation. Nobody has seen more than a tiny fraction of all the high grade cards, so any response is very unscientific. I chose under 10% but it wouldn't surprise me if there were more than that.

[Rob D.]

I saw the title of this thread and thought it meant cards graded on Aug. 19 of this year.

[barrysloate]

Exactly what I thought also.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Matt

Jeff - that's the point - it's a gauge on collector perception, not on the cards themselves.

Matt, I'm not sure that it even gauges collector perception. Inevitably, many of the purported 'have-nots' -- who only buy 3s, 4s, and 5s -- will claim that all the high graded stuff is trimmed, even though they don't think so, so as to smugly rationalize why they don't go for the expensive stuff.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Matt- I think you mean 8/9/10...fix your heading.

Oops - thanks!

[Leon]

I said 10%-20% but think that could be low..

[Matt]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Matt, I'm not sure that it even gauges collector perception. Inevitably, many of the purported 'have-nots' -- who only buy 3s, 4s, and 5s -- will claim that all the high graded stuff is trimmed, even though they don't think so, so as to smugly rationalize why they don't go for the expensive stuff.

I just assume they are balanced out by those who only collect high grade and vote a low percentage to protect their investment.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Matt, I'm not sure that it even gauges collector perception. Inevitably, many of the purported 'have-nots' -- who only buy 3s, 4s, and 5s -- will claim that all the high graded stuff is trimmed, even though they don't think so, so as to smugly rationalize why they don't go for the expensive stuff.

I think we need some TPG social promotion.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Matt

I just assume they are balanced out by those who only collect high grade and vote a low percentage to protect their investment.

Hell, it doesn't make a difference if people think the cards in 9 and 10 holders are trimmed -- they sell themselves. I can't say the same for cards in 2-5 holders.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hell, it doesn't make a difference if people think the cards in 9 and 10 holders are trimmed -- they sell themselves. I can't say the same for cards in 2-5 holders.

I don't know what kind of 2's - 5's you collect but quite a few that I collect have great demand....this is a PSA 2MK. I am quite sure many of my low grade cards WILL sell themselves when the time comes....regards

[calvindog]

Obviously, I'm not referring to super-rare low grade cards of which the low-graded card is one of just a handful or only example.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Matt

I just assume they are balanced out by those who only collect high grade and vote a low percentage to protect their investment.

That is known as the "reverse smugly." I have no clue but I would not be surprised at all if it were well in excess of 20%. Remember we are talking about a fairly small sample, 50+ years old and a 8/9/10.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Obviously, I'm not referring to super-rare low grade cards of which the low-graded card is one of just a handful or only example.

Fair enough. I had to say something as I look at my hundreds of 2's-5's .

We have collected pre-WW II high grades for more than 30 years. Many of the finer specimens in our collection were acquired long-before the formal grading services were established.

Of the thousands of PSA 8 and PSA 9 cards that we have had, as well a number of PSA 6's and PSA 7's in the much tougher early E card sets, we have found only 12 cards that were trimmed. Oddly five of those cards came from one auction house, in two separate transactions. and three cards were Teletrade acquisitions.

Thanks to assistance of Rob Lifson, we were able to obtain full refunds - either from the dealer or PSA on all but two of the cards.

Accordingly, it is our conclusion that 3% of all early high grade cards might be trimmed or altered...but it should be the buyer's responsibility to review the card carefully. And, of course, consider who is selling you the card.

The cardinal rule of "trust no one" double check everyone makes a great deal of sense when one is spending upwards of four or five figures on a piece of
old cardboard.

Looking forward to many great finds at the NATIONAL.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

[botn]

Hard to generalize when the question covers the NM-MT, MINT and GEM MINT grades. I think there are many legit NM-MT cards out there but think the percentage of legit MINT cards is smaller and the the percentage of legit GEM MINT cards is even smaller than that. I have not seen all of the TPG 8s, 9s and 10s but have seen enough that I would be confident saying more than 20% have been trimmed. I am sure there is a correlation between the decreasing number of over sized EXMT and NEAR MINT cards and the increased number of MINT and GEM MINT cards. I have yet to see an over sized MINT or GEM MINT but have seen many in lower graded holders.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

I have yet to see an over sized MINT or GEM MINT but have seen many in lower graded holders.

Boy, does that hit the nail on the head.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think 20-30, based on a combination of personal observation, hearsay of varying degrees of reliability, common sense, and consensus reports about the buying habits of certain individuals.

[4815162342]

I've always wondered how a genuine (gem) mint card could survive in that state for 100+ years.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

Of the thousands of PSA 8 and PSA 9 cards that we have had, as well a number of PSA 6's and PSA 7's in the much tougher early E card sets, we have found only 12 cards that were trimmed. ...

Accordingly, it is our conclusion that 3% of all early high grade cards might be trimmed or altered.

Bruces - you don't allow for the possibility that someone trimmed a card so well that you can't discern it?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I've always wondered how a genuine (gem) mint card could survive in that state for 100+ years.

I had a nice long, well written post and somehow it disappeared? Oh well. Anyway, here is a raw card I got from an heir of the person that collected it originally, while working at Rogers Peet, when they were issued. They were in his dresser draw from then until a few years ago, as the story goes. These are still raw but others I got at the same time came back mostly 8's, and a little better. I think/hope (knock on wood) this Cobby will get at least an 8 too. Oh, and this is how, in a rare instance, there can be mint type cards ....regards

[4815162342]

Wow, those cards are gorgeous Leon!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Slowly introduce him to the better things
Respectable, conservative, and clean
Readers Digest
Guy Lombardo
Rogers Peet
Golf!
Galoshes
Ovaltine!

[Ladder7]

T206 Wagner?.. We think 100% of these in high-grade are trimmed.

[Kenny Cole]

I saw Leon's Rogers Peet Cobb in person this weekend. It is gorgeous and I think it is every bit of an 8, probably a 9.

Kenny

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think 20-30, based on a combination of personal observation, hearsay of varying degrees of reliability, common sense, and consensus reports about the buying habits of certain individuals.

While it pains me to agree with a defense lawyer , I agree with Peter.

Kenny