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#1
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Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time
Many of you are no doubt familiar with my 54T Mays in PSA 8.5 that was previously identified by the BODA team as being doctored. You can see those deets here:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=8106 And the previous N54 thread here: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=2374138 So I recently sent this very card in to PSA for them to check it out under their quality assurance review. The whole idea being that under their guarantee, if it has indeed been doctored, then PSA has the distinct pleasure of honoring their guarantee by writing me a big check to compensate me for buying a doctored card. I'm happy to report that they have now concluded their review, although I'm less happy with the results. They sent me this email earlier today (I've eliminated his name to avoid potential issues there): "My name is [name], I'm a specialist with PSA Customer Relations. I am emailing you regarding your Quality Assurance Review Submission, which we are working on getting back to you. Your card was reviewed by our Director of Grading who confirms the Authenticity and grade of the card. We will have your card sent back to you via FedEx overnight by tomorrow at the latest. This email is being sent to you as a courtesy and no response is needed from your end. Do not hesitate to contact us if you need anything or further clarification. We thank you for your patience and understanding." I emailed back to inquire whether they would be including any additional documentation, and he responded as follows: "Unfortunately PSA does not include a certificate of authenticity, however the fact that the card has been sent to us and is being sent back to you with the cert number still intact (not deactivated) should be proof enough that the card is most certainly authentic." So there you have it. Apparently BODA was wrong, and I can sleep well at night knowing that PSA stands behind their original grade. No doubt about it.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel Last edited by raulus; 07-02-2024 at 10:42 AM. |
#2
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so basically the modifications were/are undetectable?
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#3
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Something like that seems to be their assertion, at least the way I'm reading between the lines.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#4
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I’m having a hard judging the tone of this post. Are you now comfortable with this card in your registry and collection?
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#5
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#6
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The corporation has investigated its decisions and determined they were all correct. Now shut up and keep sending us money, we know most of you will regardless of anything we do.
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#7
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That's one reason why PSA is the arbiter of their Grade Guarantee. They determine whether or not they have to pay out.
The only way this changes is to take them to court and show the before and after images, but I think you have to do it in their jurisdiction. Or you could go scorched Earth and torment them on social media, in which case they'll still make you file a suit against them, but they'll also restrict you from your PSA account or the ability to submit cards to them again. So they couldn't detect the trimming or the recoloring? That's your industry leader, folks!
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-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. Last edited by swarmee; 05-06-2024 at 04:51 PM. |
#8
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Sadly, I am not comfortable having this card in my collection.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#9
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We control the horizontal. We control the vertical. Utterly fucking predictable. Sorry Nicolo.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#10
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Understood, thought this was the sentiment, but wanted to confirm. I’m sorry to hear this. What do you think your next steps will be?
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#11
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Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
#12
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Sometimes I have the feeling that this is the only type of doctored card PSA would be able/willing to identify.
brianp(arker)-beme |
#13
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You will still get more than what you paid for the card if you give this to an auction. People who bid in auctions that go after grades buy and pay up for the number the holders they don’t buy the card you’re still gonna be fine. To me, you’re in the driver's seat PSA blessed it. It’s gold because the slab is good. Be happy with it in your collection.
Last edited by Johnny630; 05-06-2024 at 05:16 PM. |
#14
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What is interesting about raulus's card is that it was part of a big submission that Moser made to PSA, and they rejected about half of the cards. Why didn't they send them all back? And what balls PSA has to continue to defend the cards in that submission they chose to grade back then. Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
#15
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Not really excited about either of these options. I suppose I could also buy another one, and slide this one to the back of the closet until I decide what I want to do about it. But that comes with a pretty hefty price tag. So I'm likely to continue to do nothing, whilst aggressively directing negative energy at this piece every time it comes within eyeshot. Curse you, Moser!
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#16
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-06-2024 at 05:34 PM. |
#17
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So I would be enriching someone willing to go there, and sticking someone else with it who doesn't realize that it's tainted.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#18
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#19
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Is the PSA certification number still 28639479 ?
I cannot get it to come up on PSA but 28639478 does and all I’m gonna say about that card is it’s interesting |
#20
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Yep. Just don't want some other poor collector who has saved up their hard-earned bread for many moons to get bamboozled, ultimately ending up with the same disappointment, yet at a much higher price tag.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel Last edited by raulus; 05-06-2024 at 05:42 PM. |
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Sell it here. That way, if we see it for sale down the road, we'll at least know who the unethical person is.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#22
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Again has anyone tried pulling it up on PSA unless I’m doing something wrong it’s not showing up
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#23
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I just sent a follow-up email to inquire about this, particularly because he asserted that it hasn't been decertified.
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#24
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If they claim it’s not altered and there’s not evidence it is (a lie) so they don’t have to honor the guarantee, what possible grounds are there to invalidate the cert?
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#25
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PSA has graded 10s of millions of cards and not only have they graded them all accurately but only a few times did an altered card ever get past them. If you do not believe me, just ask them. Everyone knows this so if you are someone who accepts those terms then you have nothing to be upset about if it is at your expense. If one does not accept this, then divest and do not support them. Yeah right like that is ever happening. PSA put all their chips on greed and ego and those come up almost 100% of the time. HOUSE WINS!
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#26
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#27
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Why should be disclose anything? He innocently bought the POS card relying on the reputation of the TPG. They doubled down and said it was good. How far does he have to go? I am all for disclosure but what is he disclosing? This is for PSA to defend, imo. I think he did the right thing by bringing it to their attention.
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#28
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#29
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The truth. That's it, just the truth. Actual, honest reality. Should that not be enough of a reason?
I'm sure by tomorrow morning this will be another thread where we pretend that just being honest is oh so complicated and/or difficult and/or somehow actually wrong. |
#30
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Specifically to that PSA 8 Honus Wagner (of which there is only 1: #00000001), PSA claimed that it was not being reviewed, just that there was a glitch or outage on their site for that specific card.
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-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#31
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The whole altered card world is super frustrating to me as a consumer. I understand your pov. In truth, disclosing might not have any impact on the final price. I would think that most people who are buying high grade 50s star cards either have to know, assume or don't care that they have an altered card. Registry points are important, ya know.
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#32
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#33
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The best way to do that is to give it to an auction house that will write it up properly giving the card the best chance of being identified as an altered card that subsequent potential buyers can refer back to, if they wanted. If it is listed on eBay the description will not exist after 60 days.
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#34
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The site needs a "BINGO!!" button.
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All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. |
#35
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But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved PSA.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#36
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I agree...the card should be destroyed!
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#37
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#38
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Is this autobiographical?
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#39
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More like in reverse. I started out a big fan. Flash back to 1996, sent in a bunch of cards purchased from an SCD ad, got a call from Mike Baker telling me they were all trimmed and explaining what to look for. I thought they were great. It took quite some time to undo that perception.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#40
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Instead of destroying the card, selling it with disclosure, selling it without disclosure, and keeping it in its slab there is another fun option...
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#41
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I'm going to start making Tiffany stickers and putting them on my slabs. Then in my listing descriptions, I'll proudly disclose, "as seen in the Tiffany card database!"
I bet they'll even sell for a premium. If anyone else wants a sticker, let me know.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#42
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Nifty little YouTube video of it being liberated, resubmitted, and denied a number grade at PSA, SGC, CGC & Beckett would be fun to watch. Get someone else to do the submissions. Might make a few bucks back on YouTube too…. Might even get some donations for that matter. |
#43
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"To be 100% forthcoming we thought the upper right of the top border was trimmed. We submitted this at the National and when we got notice of the grade we immediately asked PSA, before we even took possession, to take another look. They stood behind their grade. Of course once it received a grade the question became "How is this only a 1.5?" Disclosure won't necessarily hurt the end price. It's better to do it and be able to sleep at night.
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Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 05-07-2024 at 08:14 AM. |
#44
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NOW THAT is an interesting suggestion!
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I have been a Net 54 member since 2009 and have an Ebay store since 1998 https://www.ebay.com/usr/favorite_things Cards for sale: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185900663@N07/albums I am actively buying and selling vintage sports cards graded and raw. Feedback as a buyer: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=297262 I am accepting select private consignments of quality vintage cards (raw or graded) and collecting "want" lists for higher end ($1K+) vintage cards. |
#45
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Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
#46
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Not to worry, any card that is at our facility is placed "on hold". You won't be able to see the cert in our database until it has shipped out, (we should be shipping your order today).
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#47
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I think (and it has seemingly been proven) that PSA has no plans at all to honor their guarantee with this scandal in any situation. The fear of the dominoes that would fall if they even capitulate to a single claim on this would essentially bankrupt them as the submissions pile in.
Even with a preponderance of evidence they will cover their eyes like a three-year old and yell "No! I don't see it!". Pretty sure they would argue the sky is green at this point if it helps move this to the background. It's a sad situation and I feel for the innocent buyers with millions wrapped up in this issue, which is essentially a middle man situation to a fraud for profit ring. There is no logical path of recourse for the end buyer left holding the bag. You are either forced to hold a card you don't feel good about as it is tainted, Destroy it and lose thousands, or pass it on and live with the guilt. Not a great corner to be stuck in. This is the perfect storm of events to show these card doctors what they have done and absolutely prevents me from spending any large amounts on high condition cards ever again. I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, is it possible to sue both Moser for knowingly committing fraud and PSA for not honoring the basic tenets of their "guarantee" when faced with a mountain of evidence? Seems the photos would be interesting to a jury. Also, do you have a microscope and high res photo of the scratch repair on Mays? If that is a smoothing and recolor, it would be interesting to see.
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- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
#48
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Currently, I don't have any. I plan on adding as many as I can find though. It'll be fun! I might even send her some before and after pictures myself to gain entry into her prestigious "database". Maybe we can get PSA to create the Tiffany Cards registry?
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#49
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PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.
People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#50
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I do not understand how they'd have a leg to stand on, if taken to court. The band on Mays' sleeve was clearly filled in and it could not be more obvious, given the "before and after".
PSA's vague statement did not cover any specifics whatsoever. Did you press them on it, or demand a specific explanation that goes beyond their vague bullshit? I would either take them to court or hire an attorney who will threaten to do so. Just the threat of it could get you some restitution. And if it went to court, you could set a precedent for hundreds (if not thousands) of other collectors. You could make lemonade out of lemons not just for yourself, but for countless others. You could be revered as a Hobby Legend. Think positive and make something good come of this blatant fraud.
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Be sure to subscribe to my YouTube Channel, The Stuff Of Greatness. New videos are uploaded every week... https://www.youtube.com/@tsogreatness/videos |
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