Anyone Know a Chet Woods?

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Just received a card in the mail I won on Ebay. Its a Psa-2 E90-1 Frank Corridon, and its trimmed horribly. About an 1/8th of an inch on the bottom, and about 1/16th on the side. Contacted the seller to discuss, (Chet Woods) and his response was this. "Tony, I DID NOT GRADE THE CARD PSA did. They are the 'experts'. You'll have to take up your concerns with them, I can't be accepting returns on Third party graded material".

Boy, sellers like this are just great for our hobby aren't they. Just thought I'd share my experience I had with ole' Chet.

Regards, Tony Andrea

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110050530748>

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Chet is an honest guy. I bet he'll take the card back, if you just ask him.

Have you contacted him yet?

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: WP

Chet is and has always been a class act. Is it the delaers responsiblility to take a card back if the grading company screwed up?

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Posted By: fkw

Top border is also angled a bit, looks to me the whole card is diamond cut.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

In the best of all worlds the dealer could have looked at the card and determined it was possibly trimmed. If it is obvious then perhaps the dealer could have included it in the item description. In this case it was graded by PSA. Similar situation in another recent thread except the card was graded a PSA7, the seller wrote NO PAPER LOSS in the item description and the buyer found there was paper loss. The scan provided by the seller wasn't real clear but the buyer trusted PSA to do a decent job of grading a PSA7 card.

Maybe the seller didn't notice this, maybe he did. In any case the seller indicated the following in the item description:

Seller's return policy: No Returns on Third Party Graded Material

I say start by asking PSA why they graded it. Tell them that you purchased the card because it was encapsulated by them with a numerical grade.

Yes - PSA probably blew it again... anyone want to jump on the bandwagon and turn this into a PSA sucks thread? They deserve it.

Why don't we have a PSA banner at the top of the page?

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I have had many excellant transactions with Chet & have the same policy as him when it come to graded cards and noted in my auctions. I do not want to be held accountable for a 3rd parties grading when it is suppose to be professional.

One of the reasons we use grading companies is for the security, this is one of the reason I do not and will not buy high grade PSA grades, I do not have confidance that they are unaltered. How do you blame the seller for a professional company grading a card and you feeling it is not authentic.

Like we always say, "Buy the Card, not the Holder"

Lee

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Posted By: Larry

Chet is one of the hobby's nicest and reputable dealers and if he sold a "trimmed" PSA graded card, well you should take that up with PSA...3rd party graders are PAID for their certification and if they are wrong, it is up to the collector that paid for card to contact PSA, GAI or SGC to dispute their opinion, not the dealer, you are buying a "guaranteed" product...unless it is so obvious, how could any dealer be responsible for the grading services that we "trust" to grade the card?...

I have seen a recent trend of customers complaining about something PSA, GAI or SGC did, using the excuse of overgrading to attempt to return cards back to the seller after they received card and deemed it to be not satisfactory to them, if it is that obvious, a scan should have been evident and if it is not that obvious, you should contact the seller first before bidding to see if that card is returnable... It is time that collectors take some responsibility, not just dealers and not just auction houses, and begin to question the authorities that put the product out.. not the distributor. I have bought cards on e bay in holders I wish I could have returned but that is the gamble we all must take when using the internet or even in person at shows.

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Posted By: DR

As a buyer, I will take responsibility for overgraded graded cards, when the seller posts HIGH RESOLUTION front and reverse scans. The trend is to 'bank' on the grading companies while posting low resolution scans (through eBay 'optimization'). When the buyer is upset, tough luck? This does not seem fair when people keep on cracking cards out of holders over and over; praying a grader misses something. I posted the message about the NO PAPER LOSS in the listing description to only find paper loss, writing and eraser marks. The buyer should disclose not only the current grade but if the card was cracked out or crossed. I doubt most people are this honest and it is a very sad commentary. If someone was selling almost ANY other item for thousands of dollars, a detailed description would be critical. Good luck selling a fancy car like these card hucksters! I would like for grading companies to keep records of cards (with images) so when someone gets screwed, the original submitter is penalized. Put it in the contract. This way, if someone cracks out a card and submits it 50x, the grading card company (is aware of the situation). They can not be right 100% of the time! Let's go PSA...protect yourself and make more money (like Mastro). Yet sellers seem to feel absolved from any liability. Bull crap. Most know they cracked and resubmitted and/or just greedy bastards. This really pisses me off!

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Chet is one of the nicest guys I've met in the hobby.

Sorry you got a bad card, though. I hate when that happens. Seems to be happening frequently lately.

-Al

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Posted By: BcD

if it is trimmed? Besides that! Tony,why did you buy this card or want it?

BcD

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Posted By: dennis

No Returns on Third Party Graded Material
it does state this in the listing also there is a pretty big picture of the card. and it is graded 2. not to defend the seller but it is all there in the listing.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

By no means am I blaming Chet for the card being slabbed wrongly by Psa. Never said that. I do however have a problem with how one handles a situation as this when they simply throw their hands in the air and say, " Wasnt me who graded it, sorry". Look, if this were the case of the card being bought as a (2) and I thought it was over graded and should be a (1), we wouldnt be discussing this. That is and always will be the buyers resposibilty and chance they take, but when a card is being sold that has been altered, definately is the sellers responsibility and is a whole different ballgame. Aint no one gonna tell me different. Thats the way I feel. I have sold many cards myself, and I can honestly say, if a customer I dealt with claimed a card was altered I sold them, it would be coming back to me immediately. Oh, and BCD, I bought the card because Im currently putting the set together, so your comment that ask's why did I even purchase this card has me scratching my head on what the hell it even has to do with this post. If there was something else behind it, please feel free to email me privately.

One last thing. It sounds as if their are some here who do in fact beleive it's not the their responsibility as a seller to correct the problem if they were to sell a card that has been altered.
Some beleive it now becomes the buyers problem. Thats fine and definately your choice. I know I can only speak for myself, but I would like a list of those sellers so I know to stay away from them when purchasing cards. To many other good people on and off this board to buy from, so to know this list would be helpful.
Tony Andrea

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Posted By: Jay

The Ebay lot description provided a scan of the card and notes that third party graded material is not returnable. The seller couldn't have done any more. If you have a problem send it back to PSA and see what they say.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Chet's listing says no return on third party graded material.

If you haggle out a return policy before you bid, you don't end up in this mess; something that happens when folks bid on slab labels instead of cards. Looking at the scan, it looks trimmed in that little holder.

So if you want to be able to return a slabbed card, ascertain a return policy before you bid.

I'm mailing back a 1935 "scorecard" today. It was listed as a scorecard. It isn't, it is the center page from a program, staple holes and all. I am fairly confident they folks will accept its return. And I think they should refund my postage. They sell baseball stuff, they should have known the difference. At least the listing had a return policy.

Realistically, for good business, Chet should accept the E90-1's return, even if not legally bound to do so.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

We've all said it before. Its tought to tell for sure if a card is trimmed from a scan. Making out an 1/8th or 1/16th of an inch from a scan is nearly impossible. I own about (50) cards now from the set, and many measure right on with the same amount of border at the bottom and side this card has. Anyone telling me I should have noticed this from the scan are wrong. I will be returning the card back to Psa. It needs to be taken out of circulation in that holder.
If I was to simply sell it which I wouldnt do, would make me no better than him.

Tony Andrea

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Posted By: Mark

Chet has always been a great guy....

If the card was graded, then it is out of his hands - as I see it.

He provided scans - so it follows that the purchase is on you.

It does not seems that there was some sort of deception on Chet's part.

- Mark

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Posted By: T206Collector

1) Chet Woods is one of the best dealers in the hobby. There are several threads about him on this board -- all of them glowing. Because of his high status in the hobby, when you start a thread like this, the presumption is that you're the one making the mistake.

2) The presumption is accurate here. When you buy a card graded by any of the Big 3 (PSA/SGC/GAI), you are purchasing a guarantee from them (not the seller) that the card has not been trimmed. Take your concerns up with the grader. And please keep in mind if a pre-ward card measures short that does not mean that the card is trimmed. I could show you a dozen examples of untrimmed short T206 cards in my collection that have been certified by both PSA and SGC as untrimmed and authentic.

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Posted By: Jason L

that a buyer has to accept the risk involved in his own judgement?
I mean, if you bid and buy something that is in a PSA holder, but is posted with less-than-the highest quality resolution scans, and you know there is no return policy on graded material, you must realize there is some element of a gambling risk there that you must feel comfortable with - enough so to buy the card...right?
otherwise, don't bid on it until you request and receive higher resolution scans, right?
At some point, a buyer needs to take responsibility for his actions...I know that this is the comfort threshhold that keeps me from hitting the bid button on many occaisons

what's the general opinion on my point here/this sort of thinking?
Thanks,
Jason L

edited to add: I am far more selective than I used to be in my bidding because I got burned a few times as an EBAY newbie, not receiving quite what I expected, but only because I wasn't be strict enough with the listing information...

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Posted By: Larry

As stated before, I am not advocating that dealers should not be accomodating and customer service is not important, I have dealt with Tony before and personally on that dollar amount I would take card back if I owned card, maybe I would have a problem if it was consigned and I had a clearly posted terms section...as far as high resolution scans, that will not determine many inperfections, only seeing in person can do that is why grading companies do not grade by scans...If someone asked me for an overall high resolution scan as is done weekly, we will provide that.

It is time that some collectors read E Bay specific shipping and terms ahead of time and if you are not happy, do not bid, that is simple. As one person stated, that he is tired of dealers hiding behind the 3rd party graders excuse, I am not disagreeing, however, I am tired of some posters bellyaching that they share NO responsibility when a reputable dealer CLEARLY posts their terms and conditions and the obvious problem is created by the slabber, not the dealer. This is not directed at Tony whom I have transacted with with the best results and may or may not have a valid complaint, still PSA should be contacted, they are GUARANTEE OF THE GRADE and if Tony is right, PSA should rectify by buying card back.

Caveat Emptor is a way of life in all aspects of society, not just cards, that is why collectors have a choice to transact with those that are at least up front.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

T206 Collector - First, Im well aware of size differences on many of the prewar sets. This is not the case though with this card. Second, we definately disagree on the subject of my post. That doesnt make you or me wrong. Its simply your choice. Third, No one here is saying Chet's a bad guy. Im sure he has his good qualities too. I do however stand by my post. I would handle this differently than he did if ever an altered card was to slip by me in a sell with a customer.
Can you honestly tell me you wouldnt appreciate dealing with someone that would stand behind all product they sell -vs- someone saying absolutely no returns. C'mon.........

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Posted By: T206Collector

The morals and values of collectors and dealers are wide and diverse. There will always be a disagreement on how to handle certain situations. As a seller, I try to be as accommodating as possible -- you complain because the Tinker portrait I sold you has too much red ink in the background; I refund your money no questions asked. But you cannot expect all sellers to be as accommodating. And, frankly, I share the opinion of a number of posters on this thread -- most recently Jason L and Larry above -- that the buyer has to take some responsibility for purchasing the product. If you are bidding on PSA graded cards, that alone tells me that you are willing to take a risk that a collector of SGC graded cards is unwilling to take. I was burned on numerous occasions by PSA's lack-luster grading standards, so I stopped buying PSA graded cards unless I receive a discount to offset the risk I believe is taken with a PSA card purchase.

The point of my response is that not only do you refuse to take responsibility for the risks you took in this auction; but you then broadcast -- in a thread title, no less -- a reputable seller's name as being disreputable. Not only that, but your title did not disclose the fact that PSA graded a trimmed card -- which, again, is the most outrageous element of this entire transaction and, in my opinion, the only aspect of your deal that is worth sharing or, frankly, complaining about.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

T206 Collector -
Again, as mentioned above. This is simply your opinion. You are entitled to it. I just strongly do not agree with it. Period......

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

of posters here (Larry, T206, etc.).

I have not dealt with any of the principal actors here

and

I buy a whole lot more than I sell and will never think of myself as a dealer

...but

buyers have got to do their part in the transaction. Sounds like some buyers have a noticeable tendency to be dissatisfied.... Here the return policy was clearly stated. Buyer has no valid complaint. I don't see this case as any different from the card being sold as a 2 and the buyer thinking it's a 1. The buyer cannot absolutely claim the card has been trimmed any more than he can absolutely claim the card is a 1 and not a 2.

When I do sell I don't accept returns on graded cards either (never had a request for a return)/ If that's hiding behind the grading companies, then so be it.

TAKE IT UP WITH PSA!

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Posted By: chetwoods

To all of you that have come to my defense with your support and kind words, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!! I genuinely apprecaite it. To Tony Andrea, I think that you are out of line. Hold PSA responsible, not me. I didn't do anything wrong. You have the belief that PSA knows what they are doing... That's your choice. You bought a card that they slabbed, that's your choice. I always have and always will stand behind what I sell and MY opinion, as the testaments will verify. I WILL NEVER STAND BEHIND WHAT A THIRD PARTY STATES, That's my choice. As clearly stated, NO RETURNS ON THIRD PARTY GRADED MATERIAL..... You knew this and agreed to it by placing a bid, What is the problem?????? To mislead others with your slanderous headline is classless and shows that you refuse to take any responsibility for your participation in this transaction. Blame PSA, Blame Yourself, Don't take it out on me Chet Woods I also would like to share this info with those who are interested, I sent you a high res oversized scan of the back, per your request. Your comment to me was, "wow, what a nice 2" It is easier, in my opinion, to tell if a card is trimmed from the back. Given your expertise on this issue, one would think that you would have picked up on this immediately

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Posted By: Joe D.

100% agree with Chet.

If its in a slab... that is the third party opinion that the sale is based on. Will the graders get it wrong from time to time? yes they will.... and in doing so you should steer clear of that grader / not the seller.

I personally look to get all of my stuff graded because I don't want to hear from a buyer that something in the card is altered. If the recognized expert puts an opinion on it -- I think the seller is cleared from any disagreement with that experts opinion. Otherwise why even get these pieces of cardboard graded?

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Posted By: martindl

Tony,
You said "Can you honestly tell me you wouldnt appreciate dealing with someone that would stand behind all product they sell -vs- someone saying absolutely no returns. C'mon........."

The answer is 'sure' but you knew the policy going into the transaction and chose to abide by it by bidding. If you preference is to not deal with people with no returns on third party authentications, then don't.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Tony and everyone else,

This may be a little OT but it has to do with the card the card and PSA holder.

PSA has a few different size holders. In general, we all accept that the E90-1 cards are slightly larger than T206 cards. PSA seems to have a holder for the T206 cards and they seem to encapsulate a lot of the T206 cards in that particular holder. If I happen to see an E90-1 stuffed into one of those holders a little siren goes off in my head because that PSA T206 holder (that's what I'll call it) seems just a bit too small for a traditionally sized E90-1 card. In this case it looks like they somehow shoved that E90-1 card into one of those T206 holders. This doesn't make it the buyers responsibility to automatically assume the worst but it's a rule of thumb that you can follow.

I've been collecting for a while but I wouldn't claim to be an expert in any particular set. If a seller was an absolute expert in E90-1 cards maybe they'd have known there was something wrong with this card and maybe there'd be a basis for a claim. But the fact remains that the item description indicates no returns on graded material and perhaps Chet isn't an expert in this set and he was relying on PSA to be that expert (hahahahahahhahahaha).

The best way to avoid this situation is to request larger size scans. I do it all the time. If the seller doesn't send a larger scan then I usually don't bid on the card.

Does anyone have any E90-1 cards stuffed into those PSA T206 holders? If so, it'd be interesting to see them.

Lets stop hitting Tony and praising Chet and lets start bashing PSA - we haven't had a really good PSA thumping in a while now.... this is something we can all come together on!

Why don't we have a PSA banner at the top of the page?

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Posted By: Jeff

NO brainer. Buyer knew all rules going into the auction and bid anyways. Period. End of story. I don't believe any of the slabbed cards I've sold were trimmed, but if one was, that would be the fault of the grader, not me.

Very simple. Seller is clean on this one.

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Posted By: leon

If they want to advertise they can....I think it would be interesting to say the least. I can only imagine everytime their banner was showing we would have opinions. Overall they probably do an ok job....just too big to do a great job with our stuff, imho. I don't see me giving Tony Orlando and Dawn, or whatever his name is, a call to advertise though....they just aren't high on my priority list. As far as the issue in this thread I will defer to others comments. I have enough issues already .....

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Posted By: sagard

As much fun as it is to pile on the buyer. I have my own doubts as to what the "trimming" would be accomplishing on a card rated good.

The unanswered question is what did Chet think or know about this card before he sold it? Dealers/Auction House that duck behind third party assigned grades aren't doing anyone any favors.

A dealer who shops a card at SGC/GAI/PSA and finally gets it to grade should not then be able to immediately duck behind the "they graded it, not me" line. I don't think for a minute that is what Chet did, but I'm sure it does happen.

If I were the seller and I wasn't really familiar with the issue, I wouldn't take the buyers word over PSA's either. If that same buyer tried crossing it in it's holder to another company and it got kicked I'd take the card back.

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Posted By: t206King

Chet's a great guy! The card looks great. but buyer has to have responibility to what they bid. I dont no why you bid on a card and have a doubt its trimmed. that really beats me, and no return policy. you just walked right in to it. you can only blame yourself, not Chet or anyone on this board. t206collector i agree.....

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Okay. Here's what Psa's customer service department just told me on the phone regarding this card. I will need to re-submit the card and pay all the charges. And the topper is, that if its found to be trimmed like I know it is they offer no refunds to the customer, which is me.
Guess i'll chalk this one up as a loss.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I cracked eleven (11) SGC graded "A" cards and submitted them to PSA. Six (6) came back graded. Some with very nice grades. If I want to sell these six cards what am I to say?

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Tony,

If you want a list of the dealers that have the same policy as Chet, all you have to do is read the description in the auction. This is something that is not done enough. If you have a problem with the transaction, go back and read the whole auction to make sure the seller has not addressed the possiblity in the auction. If it is addressed, it is on you at that point, not the seller because you do not agree with his policy.

Tony, Your title of this thread is very derogatry towards Chet. If you want to start changing that preception, edit the title to something like "Gauranteeing third party grading" A title such as this without naming him would have got many of the same responses without the mud slinging.


I accept paypal, but have a personal and business account, it is set up to use the personal account most of the time to save on fees. I stated clearly in my auction that I accept Paypal, but you are to notify me if you do not have money in your account. I am amazed at how many people just click and go with reading and then it takes a coouple of days to straighten things up. I started a thread about this and whether the readers actually read the descriptions and shipping policies. About half of those responding admitted that they do not read description & shipping very troughly if at all.

Lee

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Lee- Your are correct about my listing. I could have labeled it more carefully not to look like I was attacking Chet. Although I wasnt happy with how he was unwilling to handle the situation, It shouldnt look like an attack.
Leon, please change the listing to say "Does anyone know Chet Woods", only. Thank you. Tony

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Posted By: Jason L

put whatever you need to in the disclosures/description that will let you sleep at night.

It's a buyer-beware world, and those would be graded cards that the service should stand behind, not you...besides, maybe the first opinion was incorrect, and they aren't altered

On the other hand, it's also a what-goes-around-comes-around kind of world too, so there's the honor system, karma, do-unto-others, and reputation to think about...

it really just comes down to what kind of person you want to be, that's all

How's that for a short answer? geez!
Sorry...

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I'm sorry this didn't work out for you. It's unfortunate to be on the bad end of a deal, but chalk it up as a learning experience that just because a card is in a slab, doesn't mean the card is good. I have a trimmed card that I submitted just recently, figuring I'd get an AUTHENTIC grade, and now I have a T206 HOFer in a PSA 5 holder. It happens.

A word about Chet: I'm not a big-time buyer by any means. I met Chet a few years ago at a show, and after the first meeting he knows me by name, knows what I collect, and takes some time out to talk to me every time I see him. It's nice to get that kind of service from a dealer.

Chet has also sold me raw cards on multiple occasions, and said to me "If the card doesn't grade where we think it will, bring it back to me at the next show and I'll take it back." While I've had dealers guarantee a card would grade, I've never had one guarantee HOW a card will grade. While I'm sure Chet doesn't do that with every transaction, it sure gave me a lot of confidence when he did it with me.

-Al

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Posted By: T206Collector

...on a diamond cut T206 Herzog NY that I was concerned was trimmed. He said he'd take it back if SGC wouldn't grade it, which they did -- an SGC 50.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Since it is an ethical dilemma... here is my personal anwer.

Did you agree with the SGC grade? Do you agree with the PSA grade?

If you think that SGC was right and PSA was wrong (remember it is only opinions of mere mortals)... then I would disclose.


On the other hand, if you see the possibility that PSA is correct --- I say no need to disclose.


I have a card right now that I purchased from an N54'er that came back as Authentic from SGC. I completely disagree with the grade. It measures fine and I see absolutely no sign of alteration. When I questioned SGC upon picking it up, I quickly accepted their reasoning (they said they saw a wave on top).... giving it a closer look - I say they really got this one wrong.

So, I will give SGC one more chance... hopefully they change the grade.

If not - I will crack it out and submit it to a competing grader (for their opinion... remember its an opinion).

If it came back from a competing grader with a grade, I would have no problem eventually selling it for that grade.... after all I would agree with that grader.


On the flip side....
If I believed a card to be altered I would disclose.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I have no qualms about selling PSA graded cards to their substantial fanbase without any of my own editorial comments or beliefs about the actual grade of the card. The reason PSA has such a loyal following is because their collectors are buying the holder and their place on the PSA Set Registry.
The seller should not have to take a hit in the pocketbook because of a PSA overgrade; let the PSA collectors and their grading company sort it out. Do you honestly think they care what SGC had to say about the matter?

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Posted By: Steve M.

Jason and Joe:

Thank you for your comments. If I sell the cards I intend to make the following disclosure:

"Please examine scans carefully. I want you to be happy. This card had previously been graded "A" by SGC. Upon submission to PSA it received the assigned grade. I am no expert but when I submit a card for grading I have a reasonable expectation that it will receive a numerical grade. Therefore, I guess, it is a battle of the grading stars and for you to decide whether to buy this card. With all of that said there will be no return on this card. Bid accordingly."

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Posted By: Jason L

that is an outstanding disclosure
It allows you to make your points, it gives the buyer a great amount of historic knowledge/background about the product he's buying (extremely fair), and it clearly states that "it is what it is" and the buyer assumes responsibility for his purchase. The market may put a discount on it, but you can protect yourself by where you set the minimum bid, or a reserve...

honesty always works in the end, imo


Jason L

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Do you know what I find is funny here?

We all admit to not being experts and we rely on the grading service "experts" for a subjective opinion. We place great faith and value into these "expert" opinions.

These are the same graders (for PSA, at least) which we all accept as being people that have no clue to what these cards are.

Did I miss something here?

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Posted By: Jason L

in the desire to absolve oneself of responsibility and the quest for the almighty dollar...a powerful combination of influences is at work here!!!

you know the grading companies are pinching their collective selves every time they see the auction prices for high-end stuff...only feeds the "re-submission beast"...the temptation to send it in again is far too great when the difference between an 7 and an 8 is a year's worth of mortgage payments or a new car!

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Posted By: T206Collector

Obviously, the disclosure you make may have an impact on the sale price of the card, but I do not think it is your responsibility to make such a disclosure. Why should every subsequent buyer of your card be able to sell it for higher than you, just because you know what SGC once said about it? It is not a question of honesty or dishonesty -- it is a matter of fair and reasonable advertising. Since 1909 there have been countless owners of our cards. Do we need to list each of their opinions about the grade and authenticity of the card, too? Third party grading is here to help. If you trust PSA, then the collectors words are meaningless.


<<Did I miss something here?>>

I rely on SGC for a subjective opinion, in which I place a great deal of faith and value (which they back up with a moneyback guarantee). These are not the same graders that we all accept as being clueless.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

mike Wentz once sold a PSA 8 38 Dimaggio with a disclaimer that he believed that it was trimmed. It did not deter the bidding the card went for over $38,000 if my memory serves me right.

Now the other delimna with Steve's situation, once it is out of Steve's hands do you think the buyer is going to say anything when he resells it? I seriously doubt it.

Lee

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Thanks Leon.......

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Posted By: John

T206colletor (Paul),

“I have no qualms about selling PSA graded cards to their substantial fanbase without any of my own editorial comments or beliefs about the actual grade of the card. The reason PSA has such a loyal following is because their collectors are buying the holder and their place on the PSA Set Registry.”

Lemmings??? I personally don’t support one group over the other (PSA/SGC/GAI) in fact they could all go bankrupt tomorrow and it wouldn’t stop my collecting one bit. I do disagree with the above generalization that people who buy PSA cards are only playing the POP/Registry game. I buy PSA graded cards, in fact I buy all sorts of cards regardless of grading company, I even buy some ungraded (oh my god)!

A lot of people could call you a lemming too Paul, in fact you are one of the most hypocritical people I have ever read; I know we will never meet (you find that creepy).

Here are some examples.

·You rag on the set registry people from PSA all the time, yet you belong to both PSA (#41) and SGC (#6) set registries huh? Kind of like ragging on people at a country club in which your are a member.
·You refuse to buy any card of high grade and verbally stated multiple times that you believe many of those cards to be altered to achieve those higher grades. Yet you on multiple occasions you have shown/bragged about cards in which you have soaked cleaned etc (altered) to achieve higher grades, just not 6’s, 7’s, and 8’s.
·Even in the above statement you say that people buy the holder and the grade not the card. Once again on multiple occasions you have stated you are upgrading your set to a minimum grade of I believe SGC 40, sounds like someone’s collecting grades to me??

Hey listen, I’m sure you’re a good guy. We get it, you like SGC more than PSA, ok we get it! Surely it has to get tired up there on the SGC soapbox all the time, so unless your on the payroll from SGC. The whole SGC rules PSA sucks thing is even getting old for me at this point. And I don’t even do the graded card thing…

P.S. They all screw up sometimes...

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

[A lot of people could call you a lemming too Paul, in fact you are one of the most hypocritical people I have ever read; I know we will never meet (you find that creepy).]

It's true. I find internet dating other baseball card collectors creepy. If you're comfy meeting internet folk, more power to you.

[You rag on the set registry people from PSA all the time, yet you belong to both PSA (#41) and SGC (#6) set registries huh? Kind of like ragging on people at a country club in which your are a member]

Stalk much? But seriously, I belong to PSA's registry to make two points -- (1) registries are misleading for population purposes; and (2) I like showing off my old PSA 6 Hal Chase pink portrait with the corner crease.

I love SGC's set registry for display and insurance purposes. My issue with the set registry game is people who think that if they own a PSA 8 Bob Unglaub with a 1 pop that it must mean they are the owner of the finest Bob Unglaub known to man.

[You refuse to buy any card of high grade and verbally stated multiple times that you believe many of those cards to be altered to achieve those higher grades. Yet you on multiple occasions you have shown/bragged about cards in which you have soaked cleaned etc (altered) to achieve higher grades, just not 6’s, 7’s, and 8’s.]

Careful now, we just have a dispute over what is an impermissible alteration. I subscribe to the school (also subscribed to by Leon and other respected collectors) that art erasing and soaking off gunk is not an impermissible alteration. I find trimming to be impermissible and believe, rightly or wrongly, that many PSA 7+ T206 cards have been trimmed.

[Even in the above statement you say that people buy the holder and the grade not the card. Once again on multiple occasions you have stated you are upgrading your set to a minimum grade of I believe SGC 40, sounds like someone’s collecting grades to me.]

I am. SGC grades. Not PSA grades. Favoring SGC over PSA is not hypocritical. I love grading. Can't get enough of it. Hating PSA doesn't make me hypocritical.

[Hey listen, I’m sure you’re a good guy.]

It's true, I am. But I'm just not tired of getting up on my SGC soapbox yet. The way I see it, I'm in the minority. As long as great people like Chet Woods are getting bashed for selling PSA slop, you want me on that soap box, you need me on that soap box....

[The whole SGC rules PSA sucks thing is even getting old for me at this point. And I don’t even do the graded card thing.]

Perhaps if you did the graded card thing it wouldn't be getting old for you at this point. And I'm sure there are scores of PSA collectors who hate to read this stuff. But I like SGC and I don't mind sharing my thoughts.

[P.S. They all screw up sometimes...]

Agreed, and admittedly so, I just think SGC gets it right more often.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

“It's true. I find internet dating other baseball card collectors creepy.”

Nobody said anything about dating, besides you’re probably not my type, and yeah we know you’re not into it.

“Stalk much?” LMAO

Full of yourself much. “The Misfud Collection” If you want to remain anonymous, perhaps labeling your collection with the provenance of your last name is not the way to go about staying anonymous.

“Careful now, we just have a dispute over what is an impermissible alteration. I subscribe to the school (also subscribed to by Leon and other respected collectors) that art erasing and soaking off gunk is not an impermissible alteration. I find trimming to be impermissible and believe, rightly or wrongly, that many PSA 7+ T206 cards have been trimmed.”

No we are having a dispute over grade bumping which results in financial gain, regardless of methods.

“I am. SGC grades. Not PSA grades. Favoring SGC over PSA is not hypocritical. I love grading. Can't get enough of it. Hating PSA doesn't make me hypocritical.”

Still don’t see a difference still chasing a numerical grade regardless of whose quality you like better. For you to rag on guys who chase PSA 7’s and then to chase SGC 40’s the only difference I see is price differences within those perspective grades, not to mention the holier than thou attitude you come across with.

“The way I see it, I'm in the minority. As long as great people like Chet Woods are getting bashed for selling PSA slop, you want me on that soap box, you need me on that soap box....”

No we don’t Paul. What we need is for you to just collect cards enjoy them and let it go, that’s what we really need.

“Perhaps if you did the graded card thing it wouldn't be getting old for you at this point.”

Maybe I will, maybe I wont. But what I wont do is post here every other week insinuating that my way is the right way, and the rest of you suckers are Lemmings.

”And I'm sure there are scores of PSA collectors who hate to read this stuff. But I like SGC and I don't mind sharing my thoughts.”

Scores of PSA collectors…my we are self-adsorbed aren’t we? I can safely say these guys don’t care or loose a minute of sleep regarding your commentaries on the world of PSA and card grading. Your one man quest to wave the banner of SGC, isn’t and will not change anything about the ways these guys collect PSA cards or the way PSA grades them.

“Agreed, and admittedly so, I just think SGC gets it right more often.”

Yeah we ALL know, once again we ALL get it you like SGC…..