auction turnaround

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I don't get it. This auction ended June 24 and it's been on ebay since July 1? I sent a money order to Leland's the day I received the email invoice, and haven't received my item, much less had time to get it, mail it to Scott Gaynor, and have him put it on ebay. Weird.

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=335&auction=505
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215000376&rd=1

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Posted By: Jay Miller

A major dealer once told me that Lelands uses Scott to dispose of items that don't sell in their auctions. Perhaps that is the explanation.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I think I bid on this and was close to the underbidder??? I wish you could still log into Lelands website and see all the items you bid on and won... It disapears after a week or so and the "keyword" search does not pull from the old catalog. I enjoyed the Lelands Catalog and it might appear they will be getting more into the pre-war items!!! Competition is good for us collectors... JC

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Very nice photo at a decent price. The winner and under-bidder must have both pulled out?

In any case, my only complaint about Leland's has been slow shipping, but at least from a seller's point of view it seems they get the unsold items back on the market at lightning speed...maybe move some of those employees over to shipping.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Anybody get their Mastro invoices yet?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Yes, came last week.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Hal--Please keep discussions of your sex life off the board!

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Posted By: andy becker

is this an example of an auction house using a "hidden reserve"??
i think lelands uses a hidden reserve, but i'm not 100% on that.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jay:

Believe me...

the invoices that my wife gives me are a lot MORE than the ones I get from Mastro.

I can afford to collect...

it's the sex I can't afford any more.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Hey Scott, I got the stuff so quick because I went down and picked it up a few days after the auction. Saved a ton on shipping. I always do that when I win a bunch of stuff from an east coast auction house.

Scott

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Scott, I had forgotten that you purchase stuff as well as sell stuff for others.

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Posted By: Thomas Walcott Sr

Josh has always given Gaynor items that do not sell or do not meet the reserve Lelands is famous for having hidden reserves and Scott then disposes of them.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Thomas, I wish it was that simple, I would make more money!

I do have an arrangement with them that makes it easier for me to buy in thier auction, (I have the same deal with two other auction houses as well) but is it not as simple as them giving me items and me making them go away.

Scott

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Posted By: andy becker

i understand how an auction house can discount a consignor for volume or significant items....but, if i understand the response.....then i guess certain BIDDERS have advantages in large public auctions.
what is even more interesting to me, is the fact that this photo sold for $600+ in lelenads, and now the ebay reserve (on the same item) is MET at $500.
thoughts???

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Your items may be delayed while the shipper works up a No. 6 on them*. I got my Exhibit uncut sheet from Clean Sweep yesterday. They packed it in first rate fashion and it arrived undamaged, which is a good thing because I have NEVER seen a box destroyed like that one was by the USPS; they really kicked the hell out of it. I took pictures before I opened it because I was certain that I would be making a claim. I'll post one shortly for ****s and giggles.

*From Blazing Saddles: "That's when we ride into town a whompin' and a stompin' every...thing...."

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Scott--I'm confused by your response. Are you implying that there are two classes of buyers in some auctions? What advantage do you have over the ordinary bidder? I'm not sure that I would want to bid in an auction that doesn't operate with a level playing field.

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Posted By: andy becker

i'm with you jay!
i'd love to hear from josh on this one.

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Posted By: scgaynor

I am not going to go into too much detail, but i don't pay any less than you would if you won the same piece.

These auction houses know who I am, what my business is like, and they know that I am not going anywhere. I don't make money on every lot, but I make money overall and that is what matters. I put a reserve on that Pirates so I didn't get killed. If I lose a few bucks, it is not the end of the world. I often buy nice pieces just to keep the quality of material that I offer high. It keeps people looking at my stuff and it helps the prices on everything else that I sell. Its called a "loss leader."

I don't think that Josh has to respond, there is really nothing for him to say.

Scott

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Posted By: Jay Miller

So Scott, are you saying that the auction houses let you have the pieces before you pay with the understanding that you pay after you sell them?

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Posted By: scgaynor

Like I was saying, I don't want to get into too much detail, but everybody gets paid in full within a short period of time.

I have customers who bid with me that I allow to pay me once a month or use credit from items that I sell for them. My arrangements are really not much different.

Scott

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Posted By: Scott M

Different payment terms as are being hinted at is hardly a level playing field. It would lead one to ask if the commission being paid is the same? Are rebates being applied? Basically if your bidding on these lots, you're in essence bidding against not just the participants in that auction but against hypothetical participants in a future auction. By changing the payment terms and possibly consignment terms, the auction house is lowering the risk for the entity that takes the item into the future auction.

Thats not a level playing field.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It widely known and even advertised by the auction houses that consignors can pay different consignment percentages-- for example, a lower fee if a consignor is offering a $500,000 collection or that one of a kind Babe Ruth jersey. Anyone posting here who happily accepted, and even insisted upon in negotation, a discount consignment rate from an auction house should be the last to complain about some other person's deal, like someone being able to pay with credit cards for massive and regular purchases.

Many eBay sellers offer to combine or even offer no shipping cost if multiple lots are won. Isn't that a special discount offered only to buyers who buy in bulk? Perhaps, eBay should ban this unfair practice.

Yes, it is true that if you don't count the special favors and personal discounts you recieve, it's only other people who get speicial favors and personal discounts.

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Posted By: scgaynor

You guys are making way too big a deal out of this.

If you have a really great piece, you can always negotiate a better consignment rate, sometimes you can even get part of the buyers premium. If you buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stuff, you can usually ask for time to pay for it. That may not be a level playing field, but is the reality of all auction houses.

Scott

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My opinion, and I'm sure the opinion of the majority who have dealt with him, is that Scott is a top notch dealer and a credit to the hobby. Whether or not he got some special payment deal from an auction house makes no difference to me, because if he gets one he probably derserves it. I'll save my complaining for when Ken Goldin and Roy Huff get their perks.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

yeah, ditto on what he said.

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Posted By: leon

I have no issue if any auction house wants to do anything they want to do as long as if I am the high bidder I win. If they extend terms to customers that's their business. If they cut their rates that's their business too. Capitalism at it's best my friends. I doubt there is anyone on the board who doesn't haggle at one time or another. I also am quite sure that arrangements are made up front and set before the auction closes. As long as the auction itself isn't rigged what they do financially is up to them. As a matter fact some of the large auction houses WANT folks to pay stuff out for a while. That way they can spend beyond their budget. regards

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Didn't mean to put you on the hot seat - I thought it was a fishy consignor issue. More troubling was a call I got from UPS last night - Leland's shipped...but to an invalid address.

Hey, auction houses - when you have an electronic address, use "cut and paste". Manual transcription results in human error and frustrated customers.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I think you guys are missing the point on this issue, which I think is not a trivial one. Consignment fees that are negotiated do not affect any bidders. They simply affect the distribution of profits between the auction house and the consignor. If seller A pays a 10% consignment fee and seller B pays no consignment fee that does not impact the bidding process at all. On the other hand, if one buyer has to pay for items before he or she gets them and another buyer can postpone paying until he or she sells the item them the bidding process has been tainted. The bidder who has to pay right away is bidding for the item. The bidder who can postpone payment is essentially bidding for the item plus a loan to finance inventory. The inclusion of the second type of bidder eliminates the possiblity of items selling below retail, ie no bargains here.

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Posted By: Scott M

In essence the auction house is placing a secret reserve by the inclusion of these special bidders.

If the auction house wishes to do this, its their right but it should be fully disclosed to all bidders and they should list the lots that these bidders have placed a "floor" bid or agreement on.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Jay, it does not effect the final sale price at all. We both bid in US dollars.

Scott

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Posted By: JimB

I think Jay makes a good point. But I have assumed for a long time that in the big auction houses's auctions that at a minimum, I am bidding against other dealers who will try to flip things. Rarely do things sell for less than wholesale. If you think you are going to get a better deal than wholesale in the big auctions, I think you will leave frustrated. And my guess is this will be the case regardless of wether or not there are special payment arrangements for certain dealers.
JimB

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Posted By: scgaynor

I don't understand your comment at all.

There is no secret reserve, no lots are specially marked for me.

I sell everything collectible, cards, autographs, game used, publications, historical documents, photos, etc. Therefore, I have an interest in 95% of the items in most catalogs at some bid amount. I am a potential buyer on everything until there is no room left to make money.

Scott

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Posted By: DJ

Let's say you want to eat at Alain Ducasse's Restaurant in New York City. Top French Chef with a dinner for two costing more than a Sliding Monte Ward OJ in a PSA3 holder. You call up (ring, ring) and attempt to make reservations and they say in a snooty french way 'Ohh, I'm sorry, I can fit you in in October (it's February)'.

But if Kevin Spacey calls or Denzel Washington, I'm pretty sure they can get a reservation right away.

Scott purchased the piece, picked it up himself and put it up on eBay. The case is closed at that point. I'm sure there are many other issues you could complain about (I.E consignors bidding on their own items ---which is tough to prove) or even auction houses protecting their inventory with 'phantom' bids ---which no one could prove), but I don't think SCGaynor or Lelands did anything to harbour this much suspicion by selected parties on this fine Board.

My two cents...

DJ

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Posted By: Scott M

Scott,

I have no issue with yourself or anyone bidding on auctions, and what you do with the material after you own it is your business.

What I have an issue with (if I read what is happening correctly) is that by changing the terms of credit the auction house is in essence setting a floor bid above the minimum and allowing yourself to take the material into a seperate auction before its owned by you. ie. you receive the material and place it in another auction prior to completing the sale - with the expectation or hope that it will realize more than what you paid. I have no issue at all with you completing the sale in the same manner as all other bidders and then doing with the material what you like. But as described the auction house is in essence saying that there is a secondary bid that will take the material into another auction and other bidders.

If the auction house wishes to do this, that is their right - but it should be disclosed and the lots on which this arrangement is made should be disclosed. I especially have an issue if this is done on some of the larger lots these auction houses often offer. My time is worth a lot to myself, and I can say I wouldn't bother trying to figure out what I would be willing to pay on a large lot to start a new set if I knew that an arrangement has been made under which some secondary limit exists - and someone is going to be given the cards to auction off one by one and submit payment later.

Regards,

Scott

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Scott--If you say your special arrangement with Lelands does not affect final prices at all then I have one question for you: Would you bid as high and on as many items if this special arrangement did not exist? If the answer is no then your special deal does affect realizations. Since Lelands is not a charitable institution I would guess that they would not provide this arrangement (since it ties up capital) unless they thought it would increase profits, eg realizations.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Jay, the answer is "No", I would not bid higher.

Scott

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Posted By: Paul

For what it's worth, I'm with Scott on this one. Many businesses give special treatment of one kind or another to customers with a proven track record of buying in quantity and paying for it. I see Jay's point, that a bidder with special credit terms can theoretically bid a little higher than a competitor who must pay promptly. But I just don't see that as a major problem, especially if the credit is for just a couple of weeks (until the ebay auction closes). Payment terms are generally set for the lowest common denominator (non-paying scum) and it just doesn't offend me that a seller would offer better terms when he knows there is little or no risk.

There are lots of other ways businesses can give special treatment to good customers that can cause even greater distortions in the bidding. For example, I would bet that if you were a long time customer of Bill Mastro or Josh Evans, and they knew that you had been looking for a Just So card for years, they would probably let you know that they would be selling one in an upcoming auction, long before the catalog was mailed. This gives the customer a big advantage. He can save his money for the Just So, while potential competitors are wasting their money on Yum Yums. I know this is anything but a perfect analogy, but I think it helps to show that a perfectly level playing field is almost impossible to achieve.

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Posted By: andy becker

first of all, we probably all have bought an item from scott.....and probably all happy and thankful a seller like him could provide such items. i know i have- thanks scott.
i could care less about payment terms and consignment fees....those affect the profits, not the sale price.
i think jay and scott m. hit this on the head. thanks for saving me the typing
this is NOT about scott, this is about the auction houses that give different treatment to certain bidders. and unless the practices are DISCLOSED (as combining shipping on ebay would be) there is a very large problem.
i, and probably every other collector reading this, would like a fair playing field with no "behind the scenes" crap.
and for what it's worth, "loss-leader" is a joke, so far fetched that i can't even beleive you said that.
you paid $743.19 and a week later sell the item on ebay with a $500 reserve. c'mon.
and to be honest scott, i might need a "loss leader" on ebay, you definetly don't. sheeesh, i look you up just because of the material you handle.
something here ain't kosher


<br />edited cause my grammer sux

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Posted By: Elliot

Your spelling sux, too grammar

edited to correct my deliberate error to see if anybody would catch it

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Posted By: andy becker

elliot, you are soooo right. that's why i was a bidness major

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I'm sure you know what a "loss leader" is, and also that Scott had no way of predicting in advance that a seemingly decent $700+ item would sell for only $500. Scott's strategy is of course very sound, which is why he does so good with his auctions, as you and others have noted.

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Posted By: andy becker

$500 was the reserve. the item sold for $816.55.
so i guess the point is moot. but i don't think the item was a loss leader....you just don't need a loss leader in the ebay world.
the expalnations only lead me to more questions.

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Posted By: DJ

You have to admire the 'gamble' in Scott as Scott is comfortable enough to take risks and purchase items from National glossed catalogs with the idea that his pied piper following will bid on them.

Why does Scott get $800 for an item and Lelands, a big three auction company command less? If I had the Chesbro photo and I put it on eBay, I doubt I'd get half of what Scott got for it.

Scott MAKES eBay work and Scott has the following. He has tremendous success week in and week out and who cares how he does it, he gives us what we want. He's not screwing anyone. It's a simple formula:

Scott does a lot of business with Lelands and may get a 'Credit Break' (If you have this kind of success or this kind of bank, you too can get credit breaks!). Whether or not he gets some kind of break doesn't effect me so I don't care.

He buys something for 600, places a reserve of 500 (which blows some minds) and gets 800+ and makes a profit. What's the problem?

He gets Quality merchandise. If he loses $100 on this piece, who cares! He makes it up somewhere else. He sells glossy catalog like material EVERY week. Where else can you get such consistency? His auctions NEVER take a vacation! Is there a sports memorabilia / card dealer that does what Scott does?

This thread is insane. I don't get it.

DJ

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

I think this thread is a little insane as well. Who cares if he gets to buy on credit with Lelands? I would be willing to bet that there are more than a few members of this forum who get special treatment from dealers and auction houses that most of us don't get. Scott carries stuff that no one else on ebay has. And even though he has a huge following you can still get a bargain. I won this auction from him tonight for a very good price.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215236567&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

And as someone who follows Scott's auctions very closely I have to ask: How many copies of Husky Hans sheet music can one person have???

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Posted By: scgaynor

I really appreciate the positive comments and I hope that you know that I appreciate your business. I am lucky to get to do this for a living and I am happy that people follow my auctions.

Scott

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Posted By: Anonymous

I agree that there is nothing wrong with any bidder receiving special credit terms as long as consignors get paid. The auction house should be allowed to lend money to anyone they want to. The problem is not what Scott bids on in auctions and wins for resale but it would be a problem if items are consigned to Scott Gaynor directly by the auction house that have been reported to have sold in the auction and really haven’t. That would really open up a hornet’s nest (not for Scott but for the other auction). Scott, does this ever happen? Can you tell us this? There are always lots of Lelands items in your auctions after every Lelands auction. Do you bid on and own them all? Or does Lelands ever consign these items directly to your auction? To me that is the important question. Whatever the answer (if you can) , you do a great job keep it up.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Re: Husky Hans. I have a few more, but not an endless supply. There was a find of these a few year ago and I ended up with several.

I bid on and purchase everything that you see that was in a Lelands auction. They consign and sell things to me throughout the year (items out of collections that they purchase), but if it was in an auction, I bought and paid for it.

Scott

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I am extremely happy with my T202 Cobb/Cobb/Jennings that arrived from him last week! I see nothing wrong with Leland's letting Scott pay for items after he sells them. Afterall, they are the ones taking the risk (actually no risk involved with someone as honest as Scott Gaynor anyway). I am sure we all show "favoritism" towards regular customers (if not, you should). Most of the time, with board members I have dealt with a number of times, I always ship their card(s) before the money arrives.

No big deal - only customer appreciation from Leland's to Scott. BTW - keep the great items coming Scott!

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Posted By: Anonymous

I found these Lelands items from their last auction sold recently sold within a week or so of auction close on ebay – links to Lelands and eBay in pairs below. I’m sure there are lots more. I count 3 small winners and 20 losers some not so small. I have no doubt there is a perfectly reasonable explanation and bigger picture reasoning but can’t help but look at this list and ask why and how can anyone afford to do this? You run the best auctions on ebay. You don't need the loss leaders. If you give up them up you will do even better on the bottom line. You don’t need them. Everyone follows your auctions already and they’re costing you a lot of money.

Bought for $1144. http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1187&auction=505
Sold for $610. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60597&item=5215249177

Bought for $1563.93 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=371&auction=505
Sold for $455 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=53&item=5215242356

Bought for $473.08 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=162&auction=505
Sold for $417.55 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1398&item=6543739463

Bought for $624.47 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=128&auction=505
Sold for $305 (but reserve not met) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14428&item=6543738509

Bought for $426.53 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=380&auction=505
Sold for $270.51 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73427&item=5215232302

Bought for $293.75 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=402&auction=505
Sold for $257. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215244068

Bought for $426.53 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1542&auction=505
Sold for $610.01 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27261&item=5215234509
Ca-ching!

Bought for $355.44 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1467&auction=505
Sold for $245. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215240110


Bought for $587.50 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=2109&auction=505
Sold for $241. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215231909

Bought $176.25 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=396&auction=505
Sold for $108.17 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215243779

sevensorbetter is a very active bidder, wins again.

Bought for $352.50 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=391&auction=505
Sold for $134.49 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215248315

Bought for $469.18 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1641&auction=505
Sold for $545.55 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50131&item=5215240064
A winner.

Bought for $426.53 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=174&auction=505
Sold for $316. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215243916

Bought for $914.29 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=2056&auction=505
Sold for $123.61 (reserve not met) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215244762

Bought for $352.50 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1868&auction=505
Sold for $34 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215244574
(to sevensorbetter again. That’s less than 10%. ouch!)

Bought for $117.50 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1451&auction=505
Sold for $56. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215247620

Bought for $117.50 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=351&auction=505
Sold for 32.35 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215246887

Bought for $117.50 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=320&auction=505
Sold for $9.99 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215246596&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW ouch!

Bought $2081.54 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=99&auction=505
Sold $504 (reserve not met) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14428&item=6543739604&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Bought for $587.80 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=107&auction=505
Sold for $668 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14428&item=6543749084&rd=1

Bought for $352.50 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=321&auction=505
Sold for $183.50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215246911&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW


Bought for $235 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=349&auction=505
Sold for $123.50 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50129&item=5215246921&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW


Bought for $860.16 http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=370&auction=505
Sold for $710 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=53&item=5215242184&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think it's strictly Scott's business. By 'strictly' I mean not ours. If someone asked me where or how I got many of my photos or what I paid, I'd say "That's a secret."

It reminds me of when my parents came to dinner, and my mom asked me what I paid for a piece of memorabilia.
I said, "Do you really want to know what I paid?"
She thought for a moment and said "No ... Would you have told me if I said Yes?"
"No."
And she no longer asks me what I pay for stuff when my parents come over for dinner.