HOF -> Bonds & clemens

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Both were at the absolute top of their games well before they likely started juicing. Yes.

I voted NO for both, even though they WERE 'at the absolute top...' 'well before they likely started juicing.'

Making a decision like this is a slippery slop regardless of which way you vote.

I have always thought that the actual Hall-of-Famers should have votes.

Truly, they would be the best judges on who should be in and who should not be in.

Pete Rose WAS a lock...Rafael Palmeiro WAS a sure thing - where do you draw the line?

The rules that are in place are for everyone, not just the desperate border-line Major Leaguers searching for some way, any way, to stick around.

My opinion has not changed over the last 18 years...since the 'Home Run Race' and I admit I got into that!

I bet a lot of folks willing to vote for Clemens and Bonds are not willing to admit their own hypocrisy during that same time period.

Again, a very slippery slop.

I believe that Joe Jackson was guilty, though he may not have been sure of what had been asked of him. Still guilty...we're all grown-ups here.

I never really though Piazza or Bagwell were juicing - they did not have sudden spikes in their numbers, but rather, were very steady throughout their careers until age or injury lowered their production.

I think the same about Jim Thome and, especially Jr. Griffey.

IMHO
Their 600+ Home Runs are 100% legit.
As was Greg Maddux's 355 Wins and Nolan Ryan's 5,714 Strikeouts.

Being in the Hall of Fame is an honor not a right. It's bad enough, we can't look at the All-Time Lists the same anymore...those responsible should not be rewarded for that.

McGwire lied to Mrs. Maris's face and a great man like Hank Aaron deserves better than to be thought of as second to a spoiled and arrogant jerk who stood on the shoulders of greater men who are not mentioned nearly as often as he.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Being in the Hall of Fame is an honor not a right. It's bad enough, we can't look at the All-Time Lists the same anymore...those responsible should not be rewarded for that.

Couldn't agree more. Nobody is taking anything from these guys. They have their records, their awards, their millions of dollars, their fans (apparently, as so many are willing to forgive and refuse to hold them accountable for their actions) and they aren't banned from the game and can hold jobs in baseball. Why bestow the greatest honor the game has to give on these guys when they tarnished it by cheating? I see a lot of people say "I don't condone cheating..." followed almost immediately by "but they should be in." Anyone who thinks they should receive this honor is absolutely condoning cheating, because that's saying it's ok to cheat as long as it makes you really, really good. It's hero worship and it's sickening. These guys made the conscious decision to cheat. Let them lie in the bed they made. The Olympics strip cheaters of their medals, and have done so for years, it's embarrassing it took baseball as long as it did to address the issue.

Oh, and thinking these guys were HOFers before using is pure speculation. Nobody knows when they started using, period. And nobody knows what they would've done had they not used. The idea that Topps or anyone thinks they can extrapolate the stats is ridiculous. Look at Don Mattingly, sure fire future HOFer until his back gave out, then he stuck around and had subpar seasons (by his standards, many players would've killed for a down Mattingly year) and now his HOF chances are non-existent. Nothing saying the same wouldn't have happened to Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Manny, etc. We don't know, we'll never know, and the players that cheated are to blame for that.

No to both, I hope they never even get close.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why was it ok to use amphetamines?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why was it ok to use amphetamines?

Because it was just like drinking a cup of coffee. Seriously Peter I have seen morons use that excuse. I would say because that was their favorite era and their favorite players took them so that gives them a free pass.

Also Raymond if there was a way to prove it I would bet everything I own your list of clean players has more than 1 steroid user on it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Because it was just like drinking a cup of coffee. Seriously Peter I have seen morons use that excuse. I would say because that was their favorite era and their favorite players took them so that gives them a free pass.

Also Raymond if there was a way to prove it I would bet everything I own your list of clean players has more than 1 steroid user on it.

Ben I suppose one could make fine distinctions and say steroids are more powerful, or have a more direct effect or whatever, but turning a blind eye to the era of "greenies" whilst condemning all steroid partakers does seem a bit inconsistent.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ben I suppose one could make fine distinctions and say steroids are more powerful, or have a more direct effect or whatever, but turning a blind eye to the era of "greenies" whilst condemning all steroid partakers does seem a bit inconsistent.

They do different things but very similar at the same time.

Steroids let you instantly recover from insane workouts.

Amphetamines let you do insane workouts without getting tired.

Now stack the 2 so you can do insane workouts without getting tired and recovery instantly and you have a winning combination.

[jiw98]

As long as there is competition the competitors will look for an edge. This includes PED's, greenies, sand paper, etc.
If a player cheats only once that player is still a cheater. That said how many cheaters are already in the HOF?
Just sayin

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

They do different things but very similar at the same time.

Steroids let you instantly recover from insane workouts.

Amphetamines let you do insane workouts without getting tired.

Now stack the 2 so you can do insane workouts without getting tired and recovery instantly and you have a winning combination.

The way steroids was explained to me by an ex weightlifter/wrestler (Who claimed to be clean ) Was very close to that. He said that they made the recovery quick enough that you could work out pretty hard every day instead of needing light days or days off, essentially doubling or tripling your training time.

Steve B

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Because it was just like drinking a cup of coffee. Seriously Peter I have seen morons use that excuse. I would say because that was their favorite era and their favorite players took them so that gives them a free pass.

Also Raymond if there was a way to prove it I would bet everything I own your list of clean players has more than 1 steroid user on it.

I know if I had my future and my reputation linked to the 'extras' I knowingly took, I would also use some of my Big Money on the very best masking agents available.

But, if you gain forty pounds of fat-free muscle after the age of 35, something's definitely not right.

Another important point - which shouldn't matter, but does - Hall of Fame elections are also popularity contests....and we are talking about two of the all-time biggest jerks. There will be no biographies of these guys long after they're dead saying that they were, in fact, not that bad. These were two arrogant bastards who feel they are better than the Game.

How many times does that lesson have to be learned?


.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why was it ok to use amphetamines?

Who said it was? Without getting into the actual scientific differences between amphetamines and metabolic steroids, I'll just say that Mickey Mantle's head didn't grow 3 cap sizes. The whole amphetamine debate didn't surface in earnest until the PED era, long after those players' careers were over and most were already enshrined. It was an attempt to make steroid use seem ok, by deflection. And yes, there are different levels of cheating and intent goes a long way IMO. I don't think the players in the 60s thought "I'll take these little pills and jack 50 home runs so I'll be ridiculously rich one day." Insane workouts? Those guys' idea of an insane workout was picking up two women at the bar at 2am when they had a noon start the next day. Bonds and company were far more malicious in their cheating and I do think that matters. When you hear stories of A-Rod hiring someone to destroy documents and things like that, it tells you these guys absolutely knew what they were doing was completely wrong. All that aside, even if it was conceded that Mantle, Aaron, or whoever is lumped into the greenie era were cheaters, but got away with it, does that just give us all carte blanche to knowingly and willfully admit all future cheaters? Two wrongs making a right? Is Bonds being a petulant, spoiled brat because Sosa and McGwire were grabbing the headlines the kind of lore the HOF should preserve for future generations? Because if he goes in, that is an important part of his story and should be right there on his plaque. I understand there are two distinct camps when it comes to this matter but regardless of what mistakes were made previously, I feel there should be real consequences to these players' actions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Each generation has done what it can to gain an edge, and used what was then available. If anabolics were readily available to the Mantle and Mays generation, I have little doubt many of that generation would have used. I think it's fantasy to pretend those guys somehow were morally superior.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Each generation has done what it can to gain an edge, and used what was then available. If anabolics were readily available to the Mantle and Mays generation, I have little doubt many of that generation would have used. I think it's fantasy to pretend those guys somehow were morally superior.

Baseball didn't have a drug policy prior to 1971, so those guys weren't breaking the rules. Fay Vincent sent a memo to all clubs in 1991 stating that steroids were illegal. So, anyone using them after that were cheating and should be barred from the hof. Personally, I would hold those from 71-91 to the same standard, but I can see a grey area. As far as guys using supplements like Andro, Baseball didn't suspend those guys, so they were saying they weren't cheating at that time and they should only be punished if they used after those substances were actually banned.

I will also add this. Steroids are known to cause serious health problems. Especially in youngsters. Anphetamin doesn't unless they are abused. Those players who used steroids caused a lot of kids who looked up to them to harm themselves. To me that is far worse than the cheating.