help with paypal

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Posted By: David

recently i had a buyer complain the item i sent did not arrive on time, this was seven days after the close of the auction. well the buyer filed a complaint with paypal and they have now deducted the amount from my account. despite the fact that i sent the package fully insured. now, i have proof i send the package from a reciept and the complaint should therefore be with the post office. is there a lawyer out there willing to do some pro bono work to sue the crap out of paypal?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

First I don't know the facts of this case, so I am saying anyone did anything in this case, and it should not be construed that I am saying anyone did anything.

Having said that, I understand that some devious folks feel this is a quick and tricky way to make a buck is to receive a package, say it never arrived and get their money returned from PayPal. The problem for them is that if there is record of them receiving the item (even if it's not PayPal's required method), the receiver can get in big legal trouble-- stealing, fraud, interstade fraud, wire fraud, credit card fraud, etc. In legal situations, it does not matter what is PayPay's preferred/required confirmation method. PayPal's confirmation method is only their choice for their business/business model, and other forms of confirmation can be considered legitimate in a legal setting. In fact, if there is record that he received the package via non-PayPal required confirmation method then turned around and got his money back from PayPal claiming he never received it, that would be the basis and evidence for his legal trouble.

Much to most insurance requires a signature from the receiver or at least confirmation of delivery. If there is a signature in this case or even other strong form of confirmation, the receiver will have to either return the item or give refund or he can be in legal trouble.

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Posted By: dennis

i had this happen to me march 1st. paypal sent me an email and gave me 10 days to respond to paypal about the buyers complaint.if within that time frame you do not respond to either offer a refund, partial refund or dispute buyers claim.they would decide in favor of the buyer.it would seem to me that you did not respond to the email sent to you by paypal. my case is still under review as of today march 12th.check you old emails? they do want a delivery confirmation with all sent merchandise. and yes david is right! there are some devious folks out there.

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Posted By: david

i responded to paypal 'investigation' immediately. they never followed up with the buyer as part of this. if the buyer never responds back to them in ten days they assume it never arrived and take money from my account. they want a tracking number which the buyer did not pay for. the buyer has less then 10 feedback and has been on ebay a few months. i have the front and back of the insurance reciept here. the buyer pretty much said in an email that he was going to do this to me, paypal doenst care. well screw pro bono

i am willing to pay a lawyer at this point? any takers?
can we send a legal doc to this person and have them swear under oath and penalty of purgery that the item never arrived?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

David, most people don't like legal trouble, in particular when they know they are guilty. Considering this case could potentially be more than about a few stolen $$ and tricking the PayPal system, but fraud, mail fraud, insurance fraud, credit card fraud, wire fraud, theft etc (all nasty stuff), all you probably have to do is gather your evidence and proof-- no need for lawyer at this time. When confronted with the evidence you have and possibility of an unattractive legal situation (especially if he knows he's guilty), the buyer will more than likely give you your money back asap.

The moral of the story is that PayPal's rules and the law are two different things, and one confuses the two at his own peril.

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Posted By: dennis

please post the buyers ebay user id so i(and others) can block him just in case.good luck! it's a shame honest people have to go thru this kind of thing.

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Posted By: marty

It looks like your complaint is now with the Post Office. On insurance slips of less than $50 no signiture is required.

I had a customer buy a card, pay with PayPal, sign for the card, tell me that he never got the card from his mailman, and then wanted me to give him his money back because he did not have the card. He put a claim into PayPal. I send PayPal a scan of his signature on the slip. They ruled in my favor. This guy was a real pain. He thought that I should at least "do the right thing" and give back half of the money.

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Posted By: david

here is the user id sandyandmike65 been on ebay a few months and has a feedback of 13. this screams of scam and class action suit against paypal and ebay. the onus is on the buyer to proove that it did not arrive. i can proove that i shipped the item. i was under the impression that a lost package claim has to be filed by the person to whom the package is addressed and then fill out the forms and then the person recieves their money back.

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Posted By: Josh K.

If I were you, I would start by writing/emailing the buyer noting that he has committed a slew of federal and state felonies (as noted by David) and inform him that you will be reporting him to the local (his county) District Attorney's office and to the FBI's internet fraud unit unless he pays you within 3 days.

Make sure you save the email he sent.

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Posted By: david

well, i sent an email to the person saying i was going to file charges. i have filed a complaint with the post office, the bbb and the state attorney generals office of the state this person lives saying i would like to file interstate mail, wire and credit card charges. lets see what happens since paypal is a joke, i would love to take them down

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Posted By: Glenn

Sorry to hear about this. It happened to me last year on a $650 card. I faxed PayPal copies of the mailing receipt and the insurance receipt and they found in favor of the buyer because I had not purchased any form of tracking or delivery confirmation; actually, I am told, the package can be tracked with the code on the insurance receipt, but only by postal employees, and PayPal's investigators won't bother asking them. I had to turn the receipts over to the USPS and file an insurance claim with them. I received a check in the full amount (without interest of course) about four months later, after calling up their claim processing center in St. Louis every two weeks for the entire period. I've been quite careful about purchasing delivery confirmation ever since, and also about leaving positive feedback the day I'm paid.

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Posted By: marty

I actually purchased delievery conformation after the fact to get a copy of the signiture that I needed. It cost me $3.50 if I recall correctly. This is what I sent to PayPal.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

because of this crap, which is why I do not accept it.

However, if you read paypal's slew of rules you will note that they place the burden on you as a seller to prove delivery of a package to their satisfaction and the only way to do that is with a signed proof of delivery handed to them on a silver platter. Even if the buyer does not pay for it, you have to use it or you are at peril from this sort of rip off. Now, that said, you can send anything at all and as long as the buyer signs for the package paypal washes its hands of the situation, even if the buyer ordered a ming vase and ended up with a bed pan (M*A*S*H fans...remember that one?). I got stiffed on two fake OJ cards that way.

The other way to protect yourself if you are going to use paypal as a seller is to link the checking account that accesses paypal to a savings account and institute a sweep instruction at your bank that drains the proceeds from the checking account automatically into the savings. that way, when paypal tries to grab money they get nothing. you generally have to open a commercial account to do this but not always. depends on the bank. then let them threaten you; your counter is the truth. better to have the $$ in hand.

Your best bet, of course, is to join the millions of others who refuse to use paypal. There is a web site (i think it is www.paypalsucks.com) with lots of fun horror stories.

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Posted By: dan mckee

NEVER ACCEPT PAYPAL AS A SELLER! Ask Scott Gaynor! PAYPAL is PATHETIC for the seller! Great for the buyer, always use it to buy and use your credit card for double protection if paypal fails on the fraud end. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER accept paypal as a seller, you will get burned!!! Please visit www.paypalsucks.com

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Posted By: david

i figured this might happen so i drained my paypal account a week ago in advance. can paypal go after me in a legal way? i am contacting my credit card companys and instructing them to deny any attempt at charges from paypal and after this matter is resolved with the authorities my account will be shut down for good. it kills me that paypal puts the burden of proof on me to show that the package arrived when legally it seems the burden should be on the other person to proove that it didnt arrive,especially considering i can demonstrate the the item was mailed

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Posted By: david

here is the email i recieved from the buyer ''


Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:26:53 -0600
From: Michael McVay <McVay66@msn.com>
To: David Fela <felada@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Resolution of case # PP-068-167-012 (fwd)
Parts/Attachments:
1 OK ~76 lines Text
2 Shown ~97 lines Text
----------------------------------------


[ Part 1, Text/PLAIN 76 lines. ]
[ Not Shown. Use the "V" command to view or save this part. ]

I don't know what the hell you're talking about! YES I got the
item........AFTER I filed a dispute. After I got it, I told PayPal I had
gotten it. I'm not defrauding anyone. And I'm not trying to get by with
anything. ALL I WANTED WAS WHAT I PAID FOR!

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Posted By: Mike P.

The problem is this can also burn the buyer as well. I have heard of instances where a buyer will pay with paypal and the seller will send a package either empty or with something totally different. The catch is they DO buy delivery confirmation! Now, I as a buyer file a complaint saying I didn't receive what I paid for but as long as the seller shows a delivery confirmation to my address that is all that payapl needs. So you can get screwed out of money and the seller gets to have his cake and eat it to! Paypal sucks no matter which side you are on!

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Posted By: Josh K.

Im confused David -

In your first post you stated that paypal deducted funds from your account. Just above, you state that you expected this and drained your account. Which is it - and are you out any money or not?

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Posted By: david

they deducted 41 dollars from my paypal account leaving me with a negative balance. there must have been some investigation on paypals part considering the buyer admits to recieving the package. perhaps if they would have actually contacted him within the last two weeks they would have found this out.

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Posted By: Josh K.

gotcha. so obviously unless they reverse their decision you cant sell anything via paypal or they will take the proceeds. they are truly first class.

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Posted By: david

today i filed a complaint with the ftc and have changed my credit card numbers and i am in the process of changing my bank account number. my question is if they send a collection agency after me what recourse do i have. they buyer admits recieving the package but paypal is still going to take my money?

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Posted By: Julie

For about a year now, my address has been listed as "Confirmed ?" I thought this meant my address wasn't confirmed. I called payapl today, and found out you are supposed to click on the "?" if you don't know what "confirmed" means.

Maybe I am a feeble?

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Posted By: david

paypals response once i told them the seller admits to recieving the item was pretty much screw you, we took your money if you want it back go after the buyer there is no way to reverse the situation on their end. now today i have to take the aftenoon off to file a police complaint

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If the buyer received his refund from PayPal (which I assume is or will soon be the case), he would have to foreward that money to you. You should ask him to do this. If he refuses you have more than enough evidence to report him or otherwise persue your case ... My guess is that he will give you the money.