Babe Ruth?

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I have seen NOTHING in this thread that leads me to believe the autograph is not authentic. The ONLY thing we have is Chris saying that it is not good which leads to a domino effect of others who respect his opinion agreeing with it. He has not shared one shred of evidence that this is a forgery. He claims it is no good in his second post on this thread..the same day he started the thread yet later claims he is still doing research on it. He had no idea it was certed by JSA, and he seems to recall it being rejected by PSA (although I'm not sure how he can recall something like that unless he actually works at PSA...does PSA have public records of rejected autographs?). He apparently believes that Heritage rejected the autograph, the consignor disagrees with that assessment.

Why am I supposed to take Chris's word over JSA? If this was on ebay with the JSA letter would the EMR team boot it?

Pissed? Nah just confused why you guys call this a hobby I have an email from Rob Rosen on 1/3/13 asking for photos of the ticket and signature (which I sent on the same day) and an email from Rob Rosen on 1/7/13 asking for my address so he can mail me the contract. I had made the decision to go with H&S on 1/4 based on my conversations with Josh. If seeing copies of these emails helps please let me know and I can attach them.

[jgmp123]

Right I get all of that and Chris and I went back and forth about that, but the question is.....

David/Dan,

Would you buy it?

[Runscott]

I used to save every ticket to every sports event I went to. Each was tossed in a box. I take a look at them every now and then when I'm looking for a particular ticket, but I haven't taken special care of them. Some are over thirty years old - all look basically brand new. Tickets hold up fairly well.

Also, some have a rough edge where they were torn at the gate. I had an urge at one point to cut off the rough edge on a few of them, but resisted. Perhaps the holder of this ticket couldn't resist?

As far as autograph authenticity - I have no idea. But I do know what Chris' opinion was on the green-ink '27 Yankees ball, so, with all respect to Chris, as anyone can make a mistake and this autograph could certainly be bad, just having Chris say it's bad isn't enough.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Right I get all of that and Chris and I went back and forth about that, but the question is.....

David/Dan,

Would you buy it?

No, James. The question is...

"Is it real?"

(And the answer is, with very little doubt, "yes.")

[JT]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Dan,

Like I have said...I would love for it to be authentic just to know that one exists. I hope I am wrong.

But at the same time, the stub is now at $4k...knowing what you know/see/have read here, would you be comfortable buying it?

I haven't seen anything here that disproves the authenticity of the ticket or the autograph, nor even anything that casts doubt on the authenticity, and thus if I could afford it, I would be bidding too.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Right I get all of that and Chris and I went back and forth about that, but the question is.....

David/Dan,

Would you buy it?

The only autographs I buy are ones that no one would even think about forging so no I wouldn't buy it...if I did collect Ruth autos this one is certed by JSA, we have public statements that Spence looked it over again and still gave it a thumbs up and it's in an SGC slab. What's not to like other than the purely manufactured cloud of mystery?

[shelly]

Here is a 1934 ruth autograph from Hunt auctions
241.jpg

[Forever Young]

1934 BABE RUTH exemplars

[shelly]

Item_22463_1 (1).jpg

[David Atkatz]

[slidekellyslide]

Not a single one of those signatures looks identical. I wonder how anyone can do an "eye test" on a Ruth sig?

[David Atkatz]

But Dan, Chris said above (and I quote):

"I trust my "autograph eye" more than anything else."

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

not a single one of those signatures looks identical. I wonder how anyone can do an "eye test" on a ruth sig?

exactly!!!!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

But Dan, Chris said above (and I quote):

"I trust my "autograph eye" more than anything else."

I think that any time an 'expert' gives thumbs-up on a signature that you ('you' meaning anyone on this forum) are certain is a forgery, you no longer pay much attention to their opinions. Especially when they never give a good reason for the opinion - and unfortunately, this is true of almost everyone on this forum. We'll say 'good' or 'bad', but if we give a reason we know that there's a likelihood that we'll get slapped around, or lose credibility. So no one likes to put themselves on the line.

But research is a different thing - if Chris does 'leg-work' and determines that this can't be a good Ruth, then I'm sure it isn't.

[Scott Garner]

Thanks to Shelly and Ben for providing different 1934 exemplars.
Ben, I can't believe that you have some many exemplars from 1934. Wow!

I'm glad that I'm not the one being asked my opinion about the signature on this ticket. I find it extremely challenging to tender an opinion, even with all of these terrific exemplars. Yikes!

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think that any time an 'expert' gives thumbs-up on a signature that you ('you' meaning anyone on this forum) are certain is a forgery, you no longer pay much attention to their opinions. Especially when they never give a good reason for the opinion - and unfortunately, this is true of almost everyone on this forum. We'll say 'good' or 'bad', but if we give a reason we know that there's a likelihood that we'll get slapped around, or lose credibility. So no one likes to put themselves on the line.

But research is a different thing - if Chris does 'leg-work' and determines that this can't be a good Ruth, then I'm sure it isn't.

How much legwork was done? He claimed in his second post that it was bad yet at that time did not know it had been certed by JSA, believed it was rejected by PSA and I think we can tell from his posts that he believed that Heritage rejected it. Then claims that someone from Michigan who forged some other Ruth item that we are not allowed to see more than just the signature on also forged this Ruth ticket stub, yet the consignor is here and refutes all of that.

Dan

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

How much legwork was done? He claimed in his second post that it was bad yet at that time did not know it had been certed by JSA, believed it was rejected by PSA and I think we can tell from his posts that he believed that Heritage rejected it. Then claims that someone from Michigan who forged some other Ruth item that we are not allowed to see more than just the signature on also forged this Ruth ticket stub, yet the consignor is here and refutes all of that.

Dan

It's a big "if". Chris says he's been doing research - he just needs to show it to us.

Off to the game.

[yanks12025]

Does provenience really mean anything now adays useless you could prove it 100% to every detail? You see alot of fake items with provenience or a so called history and then the item is fake. Just talking in general, not referring to this item.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Does provenience really mean anything now adays useless you could prove it 100% to every detail? You see alot of fake items with provenience or a so called history and then the item is fake. Just talking in general, not referring to this item.

If someone is going to great lengths to fake something, they wouldn't give a second thought to faking the provenance. At the end of the day most provenance comes down to word of mouth and faith in the storyteller anyway.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

How much legwork was done? He claimed in his second post that it was bad yet at that time did not know it had been certed by JSA, believed it was rejected by PSA and I think we can tell from his posts that he believed that Heritage rejected it. Then claims that someone from Michigan who forged some other Ruth item that we are not allowed to see more than just the signature on also forged this Ruth ticket stub, yet the consignor is here and refutes all of that.

Dan

Speaking of MICHIGAN....GO BLUE!!!! Lets take a break to watch a great game fellas.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It's a big "if". Chris says he's been doing research - he just needs to show it to us.

I won't hold my breath.

[earlywynnfan]

just spent 4 lousy hours watching the Tribe lose to the damn yankees, so I missed a lot here...

Chris, it's nice of you to finally post something!

From what I read into Chris' words, I'm wondering if perhaps he's checking into the fact that maybe Babe never did a radio show that day??

Ken

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Sounds like a scenario for "Treasure Detectives". They will:

• Verify Ruths' whereabouts
• verify womans identity and movements
• Authenticate ticket
• Authenticate autograph
• X-ray the ticket for the hell of it
• Talk to Chris

BTW, all this would take longer than the short time an auction runs.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

just spent 4 lousy hours watching the Tribe lose to the damn yankees, so I missed a lot here...

Chris, it's nice of you to finally post something!

From what I read into Chris' words, I'm wondering if perhaps he's checking into the fact that maybe Babe never did a radio show that day??

Ken

Still, the story could have gotten garbled over the years and the ticket/autograph could still be good.

I think that ultimately you have to verify that the ticket is legit, then decide whether or not the autograph is real. The first part can probably be done, but no one here ever seems to be in agreement as to whether or not a Ruth is real or not.

[mschwade]

I just read through 23 pages in this thread, and not one person thought to ask Chris the one question I've had for like the last 6-7 pages.


Chris - how long has this Michigan forger you speak of been knowingly forging?

[RichardSimon]

He has knowingly been forging for a long time.
A number of dealers know of his existence.
There have been attempts to bring law enforcement into action in this matter.
As far as I know nothing has happened, yet, with law enforcement.
Proving something in a court of law is very different than just having some people know of the existence of this man and his activities.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

He has knowingly been forging for a long time.
A number of dealers know of his existence.
There have been attempts to bring law enforcement into action in this matter.
As far as I know nothing has happened, yet, with law enforcement.
Proving something in a court of law is very different than just having some people know of the existence of this man and his activities.

Long time, meaning > 20 years? > 10 years? Thanks Richard.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Long time, meaning > 20 years? > 10 years? Thanks Richard.

I have known of him for many years, probably 10-15 years.

[chaddurbin]

i thought about that to try and match up with the consignor's story...but it won't make a difference. the consignor states he's had the sig for 20 years, and before that the lady friend's had it for the 50 years prior to that. doesn't matter if the michigan forger been around for 10yrs, 20yrs, or 40 yrs. you either buy the consignor's story or you don't. just like you're either on JSA side, or you believe chris judgement.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I have known of him for many years, probably 10-15 years.

What's your opinion on this Ruth ticket? Is it the work of the Michigan forger?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

He has knowingly been forging for a long time.
A number of dealers know of his existence.
There have been attempts to bring law enforcement into action in this matter.
As far as I know nothing has happened, yet, with law enforcement.
Proving something in a court of law is very different than just having some people know of the existence of this man and his activities.

Yeah, yeah... Same old, same old. "We know about him, but it's very hush hush."

Well, Richard, here's something you can talk about: This Ruth.

What's your take?

[RichardSimon]

I have not seen his work in person since I was doing shows, which is about 7-8 years ago. I have had several stories told to me about him and his work.
There is a tell in his work, which I will not reveal, when it comes to Ruth sigs.
The tell appears in the signature on the ticket.
My opinion on the ticket is that I would not buy it.
I would like to reveal the tell but that would be foolish of me as I believe there are many lurkers on this board and for all I know he could be one of them.

[David Atkatz]

Well, then. Have you been in touch with H&S? Don't you think you should explain to them what this "tell" is?

[Runscott]

Good stuff, Richard - thanks for posting.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Good stuff, Richard - thanks for posting.

You are welcome Scott.

[slidekellyslide]

Is it safe to assume that since you guys know this guy has been forging for over 20 years now and you know his tell that you don't know his identity? Otherwise to allow this to continue for 20+ years is a bit silly is it not?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Is it safe to assume that since you guys know this guy has been forging for over 20 years now and you know his tell that you don't know his identity? Otherwise to allow this to continue for 20+ years is a bit silly is it not?

Where did I say I don't know his identity? I know his name.
He has been reported to law enforcement, we are autograph people, we are not the FBI and we are not the police.
What do you want from us? Should I just go and shoot the guy?
So many people in the forgery business can operate with impunity because law enforcement won't do anything.
I have reported much to law enforcement, occasionally there is a good outcome, more often than not there is no outcome.
What would you suggest Dan?

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Where did I say I don't know his identity? I know his name.
He has been reported to law enforcement, we are autograph people, we are not the FBI and we are not the police.
What do you want from us? Should I just go and shoot the guy?
So many people in the forgery business can operate with impunity because law enforcement won't do anything.
What would you suggest Dan?

You don't have to shoot him, maybe break his fingers so he can't forge anymore. Lol

[shelly]

Dan, that is by far one of the most pointless question that I have ever read on this board. Here is my question. What would you do that Richard didn't do?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

You don't have to shoot him, maybe break his fingers so he can't forge anymore. Lol

Good one Brock, I am booking airline tickets to Michigan now .

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What do you want from us? Should I just go and shoot the guy?

What would you suggest Dan?

How about sharing your information with Huggins and Scott? (Especially your so-called "tell.")

How about sharing that tell with Jimmy Spence? (I've seen him help you out at shows years ago.)

You haven't done either.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by shelly

Dan, that is by far one of the most pointless question that I have ever read on this board. Here is my question. What would you do that Richard didn't do?

See above.

[jgmp123]

Wasn't there a guy named Rick Behar running a crap shop out of Michigan a while back...Colossal Auction Company....I assume no, but any connections?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Good one Brock, I am booking airline tickets to Michigan now .

I'm sure you are kidding, but I remember things getting so bad with a guy in the billiards hobby ripping people off, that a couple of guys were on the verge of buying plane tickets to Milwaukee to get satisfaction. These people actually knew the obscure bar where they thief would be, evidence would be in hand, and all they had to do was figure out a way to get in and out with their own lives. It didn't happen, and they ended up eventually getting their money back by contacting his local police department, but it was very tempting.

If you steal from people long enough, you'll eventually get hold of someone to whom money means a lot less than setting things straight.

[jgmp123]

I did just happen to notice that PSA is advertising the card and the H&S auction on their site...

http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...-ends-april-11

[Frozen in Time]

Usually the only threads discussing autos that I follow are those for Mantle - which I do solely for educating myself. But, wow this one has everything and has been all over the place, except for what matters most and that is a cogent explanation for why this Ruth is deemed authentic or a forgery. Aside from the plethora of personal issues and personality exchanges sadly that information appears to have been pushed aside.

Don't get me wrong, I understand to some degree a few of the underlying factors that have carried over from previous threads between participants and I do find the back and forth somewhat entertaining - along the same lines that the "reality shows" are entertaining. But from the standpoint of acquiring some new information to help with assessing the authenticity of a Ruth auto I'm not getting a lot.

So let me see if I can generate some info. It was mentioned that the potential forger for this Ruth has a "tell" in his work. Is this a characteristic of his Ruth forgeries that always appears in his work but that never appears in a real Ruth auto? If so, how does one determine that - would not one have to have multiple Ruth autos that are 100% known to be the forger's?

Thanks,

Craig

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If you steal from people long enough, you'll eventually get hold of someone to whom money means a lot less than setting things straight.

+1

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

Usually the only threads discussing autos that I follow are those for Mantle - which I do solely for educating myself. But, wow this one has everything and has been all over the place, except for what matters most and that is a cogent explanation for why this Ruth is deemed authentic or a forgery. Aside from the plethora of personal issues and personality exchanges sadly that information appears to have been pushed aside.

Don't get me wrong, I understand to some degree a few of the underlying factors that have carried over from previous threads between participants and I do find the back and forth somewhat entertaining - along the same lines that the "reality shows" are entertaining. But from the standpoint of acquiring some new information to help with assessing the authenticity of a Ruth auto I'm not getting a lot.

So let me see if I can generate some info. It was mentioned that the potential forger for this Ruth has a "tell" in his work. Is this a characteristic of his Ruth forgeries that always appears in his work but that never appears in a real Ruth auto? If so, how does one determine that - would not one have to have multiple Ruth autos that are 100% known to be the forger's?

Thanks,

Craig

This thread has also had several 'talk show hosts', but that's understandable too..

It's a shame that Ruth himself apparently didn't have a "tell". But then again, maybe he did, but that's a secret as well

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Where did I say I don't know his identity? I know his name.
He has been reported to law enforcement, we are autograph people, we are not the FBI and we are not the police.
What do you want from us? Should I just go and shoot the guy?
So many people in the forgery business can operate with impunity because law enforcement won't do anything.
I have reported much to law enforcement, occasionally there is a good outcome, more often than not there is no outcome.
What would you suggest Dan?

Well, if you guys are sure this guy is doing it how about telling us his name so we don't deal with him. How about letting us in on his "tells" so we don't fall for his forgeries.

[RichardSimon]

Yeah, announce a guys name, when I have no physical proof now of his guilt because his questionable material was returned to him by the dealer who he was trying to sell to. (it was not in my possession).
I called someone a crook, in writing, in the distant past, and what happened? I got sued for my troubles. Why don't you guarantee my legal fees Dan, in case I get sued, and then I will be happy to reveal the name.
Announce his tell so he can correct it, sure thing.
When a certain Philadelphia store owner was on here a while back, we had all kinds of information and many examples in his ebay store of his questionable activities. That was no problem to speak out, for most of us, when we were discussing him. Leon even made a mockery of his attorney.
And as far as I know, the guy in Michigan does not sell retail, so the board members have nothing to fear, he sends stuff to dealers and to auction houses.