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  #11  
Old 01-23-2018, 09:49 PM
PowderedH2O PowderedH2O is offline
Sam Lemoine
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I generally root against Brady, unless the opponent is someone I dislike more. Falcons? Saints fan here... Had to pull for Brady. Seahawks? Hard to pull for Richard Sherman... Had to pull for Brady. Giants? Nobody I disliked, so couldn't root for Brady. Eagles? Gotta like Filed (and Wentz). Ajayi, Jeffries, and the defense. Plus Philly fans are passionate. So, gotta root against Brady on this one.
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  #12  
Old 01-23-2018, 11:19 PM
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Scott Russell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
'Everyone hates Goliath' - maybe not an exact quote but certainly from someone who knew it was true.
"Nobody roots for Goliath" - Wilt Chamberlain

I hate the Pats, but as a Giant fan I love being the only team that has beat them in the Superbowl in the Belicheck/Brady era, so I root for them when they're not playing the G-Men.
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2018, 12:01 AM
KCRfan1 KCRfan1 is offline
Lou Simcoe
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If Brady were on our team, we would love him.

He's one of the VERY few quarterbacks in the NFL who's job is to win the game for his team. The vast majority of quarterbacks have the job of not losing the game.
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  #14  
Old 01-24-2018, 12:07 PM
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Bill Gregory
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I don't think Brady is the greatest of all-time. Why do people continually confuse team accomplishments with individual greatness?

He's won five Super Bowls. Fact.
He's an all-time great. Fact.
He's a first ballot Hall of Famer. Opinion, but I can't see any way he's not.

He's the greatest of all-time. This is pure conjecture.

Football is a team sport. Brady is one part of a very successful Patriots franchise. But let's be honest, he's benefited tremendously from having one of the top three head coaches of the modern era, a Hall of Fame tight end for the past eight years, an owner who, time and time again, has shown a willingness to spend in free agency to make the team better, and, oh yeah, an historically great defense.

The names on the defensive side of the ball might not be sexy, and they have changed over time. But look where the Pats have finished in scoring defense the years they have won it all with Brady:

2001: 6th
2003: 1st
2004: 2nd
2014: 8th
2015: 1st

This year? They're 5th in scoring defense.

Say what you want about Brady. I don't dispute that he's a tremendous quarterback. Easily one of the best all-time. But if you take some of the other guys in the conversation, somebody like a Dan Marino, or even an Aaron Rodgers---give those guys the ridiculous wealth of resources that Brady has enjoyed--is it a stretch to imagine that they'd have just as many rings, if not more?

Tom Brady has a career 97.6 QB rating; he's thrown 488 TD passes against 160 INT, a career ratio of 3.05:1.
Aaron Rodgers, in the same era, has a career 103.8 QB rating; he's thrown 313 TD passes against 78 INT, a career ratio of 4.01:1. Brady is the only other guy with a 3:1 career ratio, and Rodgers is a full TD pass better.

What about Brady's performance during Rodgers' career as a starter, from 2008 on? Brady's QB rating while Rodgers has played is 100.8. Very close to Rodgers' 104.2, but still below it. Now, his TD to INT ratio is better, 291 TD to 74 INT, or 3.93:1, but it's still not as good as Rodgers'. And, you cannot simply compare the numbers from Rodgers first start forward against Brady, who'd already started six seasons in the NFL. Before 2008, Aaron Rodgers had only attempted 59 passes as Brett Favre's backup. Wanna say that "he learned so much from Favre?" Yes, he learned a good deal. But Favre was the ultimate gunslinger, making the impossible throws, but also making boneheaded turnovers. Rodgers is the anti-Favre. He's every bit as deadly, but he takes care of the ball much better than Favre ever did, even when he was winning three consecutive MVP awards.

Tom Brady, in his first MVP season, 2007, had Randy Moss, who went for 98 catches, 1,493 yards and 23 TD. He also had Wes Welker grabbing 112 passes. Gronkowski, though he has been dinged up from time to time, has been dominant. He's caught 76 TD passes in 102 career games.

Has Aaron Rodgers ever had a Hall of Fame receiver or right end? Nope. Jordy Nelson is very good, but he's not Moss. And Rodgers has never had that kind of weapon in the middle of the field.

Rodgers does every single thing that Brady can do, every bit as well. And he's absolutely lethal outside of the pocket, and as a scrambler.

But he doesn't have five Super Bowl rings. So, he's not the GOAT. Rodgers, in his third year as a starter, destroyed the Pittsburgh Steelers' #1 ranked defense in the Super Bowl, even though he lost the franchise's all-time leading receiver, Donald Driver, in the first half. He had Greg Jennings, James Jones who dropped a pass that would have been a 60 + yard touchdown, and Jordy Nelson, who was unproven. He also had James Starks at running back, who hadn't played all season.

Then, look at somebody like Dan Marino, who re-wrote all the passing records with absolutely nothing on his team besides Mark Clayton and Mark Duper. Give him the defense Brady has had, and that kind of a ridiculous mismatch at tight end. How many Super Bowls does he win?

If you want to call him a Hall of Famer, and all-time great, the greatest winner in the Super Bowl era--no problem. But when you start hailing him as the greatest to ever play the position, better-than-compelling arguments can be made that, while near the top, he is not the greatest all-time running away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
However, we all have to admit one thing: Brady is the GOAT. Every time he wins, football fans complain about him cheating or doing something else, but then he does it again and again and again. Brady could win the Superbowl with one leg and football fans would still accuse him of doing something wrong.
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  #15  
Old 01-24-2018, 12:56 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
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I like that comparison with Rogers. Being in the same era it's an nice direct comparison.

Comparison with Marino is a bit less direct, but the point that Marino was spectacular on some iffy teams is a good one. Sometimes big traditional passing stats from anyone are because the defense wasn't good, and the QB had to pass a lot.

The team certainly has a lot to do with the results. As far as I can tell, stability is a major part of that.

If they'd lost that first superbowl, would they have stuck with Bledsoe? And when would Brady have gotten a chance?

And if they'd lost and then had a down year like they did, but decided to get rid of Belichick .. Maybe Brady never gets a shot.

At the time he was very much a system guy, loads of short passes with a good chance at completing them. Another coach maybe decides to make him a scrambler or pushes for more downfield low percentage plays, and if his confidence suffers as a result he ends up being average or worse.


There's so much that can go wrong or right during a career.


One player that I think just might actually be the best at his position all time is Gronk. Sometimes even the numbers he's put up in a half season where he missed games hurt would be a very nice season for most tight ends.
And yes, a part of that is system, and another part Brady.
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  #16  
Old 01-24-2018, 02:46 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
I don't think Brady is the greatest of all-time. Why do people continually confuse team accomplishments with individual greatness?


Then, look at somebody like Dan Marino, who re-wrote all the passing records with absolutely nothing on his team besides Mark Clayton and Mark Duper. Give him the defense Brady has had, and that kind of a ridiculous mismatch at tight end. How many Super Bowls does he win?

If you want to call him a Hall of Famer, and all-time great, the greatest winner in the Super Bowl era--no problem. But when you start hailing him as the greatest to ever play the position, better-than-compelling arguments can be made that, while near the top, he is not the greatest all-time running away.
Quarterbacks dont play defense so Marino not having a Defense didnt impact his passing stats...he also had more weapons than just Clayton and Duper

I know its a team game but eventually year after year, if you keep winning super bowls not sure how that doest put you ahead. All of these comebacks even in last years super bowl against the falcons.. How do you measure that statistically. I know there are arguments you can make now even though 8 super bowls is getting silly...what if it gets to 14 super bowls? when the next 'great qb' in all history is stuck at 5...i do think it matters...and i hate brady by the way...
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  #17  
Old 01-24-2018, 02:52 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
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Bill you should watch the games, not just read the stat sheet. After all these years, and titles, and comeback victories, with innumerable different receivers, with or without decent running backs, with Gronk playing or not playing, it doesn't seem to matter, there is no question in my mind he is the greatest QB ever. The more interesting discussion is about the rest of the top 5, or 10.
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  #18  
Old 01-24-2018, 03:54 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
Quarterbacks dont play defense so Marino not having a Defense didnt impact his passing stats...he also had more weapons than just Clayton and Duper
If the defense is average to bad, there's more chance you're playing while behind, and that traditionally means more passing. So it does affect the stats. If I had the time and inclination I'd do some sort of math study of it, but I'm just not that into the math.

I did use that sort of concept playing fantasy FB, which is pretty much about nothing but stats. I only put maybe 2-3 players in my draft list, and by week three there was always a good idea who was becoming "good" and had been overlooked. SO for me the revolving door spun a lot!
Had Welker on the Dolphins when we got points for return yards..
And Gore with SF the same.
Then the guy running it took away return yards.
Had a nice run of kickers with range who played for teams with really average offenses. Made the difference a few times.
The he took away the huge point difference between 30-50 yard FGs and 50+
Had Brady for a change when Moss was on the team.
Next year he changed QB touchdowns from 6 points to 4....

Eventually he gave up.
I think I won 3 times in 7 years, second twice more and only missed the playoffs once.
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  #19  
Old 01-24-2018, 04:33 PM
KCRfan1 KCRfan1 is offline
Lou Simcoe
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Look no further than Green Bay this season for how important the quarterback is. The loss of AR flipped their season. Even with other injuries, the quarterback was key, and usually is with teams.

Brady drives the Pats. They can have injury and turnover at other positions, but not at QB.

It's not the X's and O's, it's the Jimmy's and the Joe's. Play calling is important, more importantly is the players and execution. High performance. Brady brings that to level not seen before. His overall body of work is superior to others and is the GOAT.
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  #20  
Old 01-24-2018, 04:54 PM
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Ah the vitriol for Brady, Belichick and the Pats.
It reminds me of the hate for Alabama.

Not a Pats fan as I am a Cards fan but I marvel at what they have done and continue to do. In my mind without question he is the best to ever play the position. Of course, it's a question with no answer merely points of view.

My guess is if he played most folks' team with the same results they would feel the same way about him that the Pats fans and many others do. Success breeds contempt and also affects viewpoints.
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