The National

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I am going to my first National next month, and I have a general question. Are the vintage card dealers willing to deal? I mean, I know what cards go for on ebay and other auction sites. Will I find better buys at the National, or will I find higher prices? I would appreciate any words of wisdom from experienced National-goers.

[darkhorse9]

Most national dealers are reasonable and easy to work with. But remember most of them do this full time, what they don't sell at the national, they can sell at the next show so they won't take huge hits just to make a sale.

I find you csn haggle more at smaller shows with dealers who only set up four or five times a year.

[savedfrommyspokes]

In my experience at the Natl, the more you buy from one dealer, the better a discount they are willing to offer. Buy just a few cards from their table, and you are not likely to see any type of discount or willingness to negotiate. When I inquired, some dealers explained their discount structure before I began looking through their inventory, while others had this information posted.

[SMPEP]

I've always found ... the prices were ridiculously high ... until the last 4 hours of the show.

The reason to go is to get what you can't find elsewhere. If you want bargains, go late or don't go at all.

Just my two cents. (You won't find anything there for that price though.)
Patrick

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Thanks for the responses thus far. What you guys have said was sort of what I expected. Basically, I am going nuts right now. There is a vintage card I really want, but I have (at least for now) decided not to purchase because I am going to be at the National for 3 days, and I don't want to be there not being able to buy much. So, if I pass on the card I will have flexibility at the National. Of course, I really hate passing on the current card. Oh, the fun of collecting!!

[Exhibitman]

I've been to 13 or 14 Nationals [this year will be my 11th in a row]. It depends on what you want. If you are looking for postwar mainstream cards the show is a great opportunity to score great deals. It just requires spending all of the allotted time on the floor prospecting. If you think Levi Bleam is going to drop his prices 50% for PSA cards in his showcases, though, you are dreaming. The key to having a good show is flexibility--take the deals as they pop up. I have a giant want list I take covering baseball, boxing, basketball, football, hockey, soccer, tennis, surfing, track and field, and nonsport, so I can react to whatever I come across. I usually come home with a stack of cards that I didn't necessarily want but that were such good deals I could not pass them up. One other thing: if you see something great the first day, buy it! I haven't always followed that rule and I have regretted it every time.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I've been to 13 or 14 Nationals [this year will be my 11th in a row]. It depends on what you want. If you are looking for postwar mainstream cards the show is a great opportunity to score great deals. It just requires spending all of the allotted time on the floor prospecting. If you think Levi Bleam is going to drop his prices 50% for PSA cards in his showcases, though, you are dreaming. The key to having a good show is flexibility--take the deals as they pop up. I have a giant want list I take covering baseball, boxing, basketball, football, hockey, soccer, tennis, surfing, track and field, and nonsport, so I can react to whatever I come across. I usually come home with a stack of cards that I didn't necessarily want but that were such good deals I could not pass them up. One other thing: if you see something great the first day, buy it! I haven't always followed that rule and I have regretted it every time.

I hear ya on Levi. Don't believe I will spend much time at 707's booth. You did hit on something I have thought about: buying on the first day. My thinking has been that if I saw something day #1 at the price I could live with, I would buy it. My list will include: just about any Ted Williams card or stars from '53 Bowman Color or a '41 Play Ball Joe D. Thanks for the info. I have been trying to picture what it is going to be like.

[Footballdude]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I have a giant want list I take covering baseball, boxing, basketball, football, hockey, soccer, tennis, surfing, track and field, and nonsport, so I can react to whatever I come across. I usually come home with a stack of cards that I didn't necessarily want but that were such good deals I could not pass them up.

Something I can relate to. I collect mainly football and have wantlists for 60+ sets. I can always find something to buy and never go to a show with specific wants. You are at the mercy of the dealers then. Nothing is so unique that another won't pop up at some time, in my opinion. For the record, i haven't been to a National in over 20 years. My first National experience was a miserable one and it soured me from ever returning. I prefer to hit small, local shows instead.

[brian1961]

Robert,

Most all dealers at the National are going to be willing to drop their price by some percentage, though perhaps not on the first couple of days. Depends on many factors.

Also, among the pivotal factors is what you are truly in the market to purchase for your collection. In spite of the gentleman's remarks insisting that you can get anything you want somewhere else, that is very true up to a point. How much time and effort do you wish to spend just to say you saved 10-50 bucks buying it on eBay? Hopefully your time is that frivolous and you will like the card once you get it, even with a good scan.

It's the old, "I bought it. I spent my time and gas to bring it to show you in person to sell it. I spent money to buy the display cases, perhaps have the cards graded, and then bought an expensive hotel room, table fees, meals---------and then you expect me to settle for 50 cents on the dollar of my sticker price?"

I'm sure some, if not many, of the dealers set their retail price with their overhead figured in. Walmart and any surviving retailer and merchant sure does.

No doubt about it, come Saturday or Sunday, if sales have been slow, they'll be much more willing to dicker, just to break even or establish a decent profit for the week.

I still go back to something someone else said that is so true, whether buying at a show or bidding online. If you see something you really like, and know it really pushes your "gotta have it" button, chances are very, very good that beautiful piece or card WILL JAM SOMEONE ELSE'S BUTTON AS WELL. They'll GLADLY pay the dealer's full retail price, and walk away with one of the highlights of his National experience. The regret that soon grips you will not be pried away by the hope you'll find another next week. Sure, finding as good of one happens. You might just even find a BETTER SPECIMEN. But, how often does that happen? So rarely a person will initiate a thread telling others to rejoice with him; meaning not very often.

Again, it depends on what it is you want. If our football collector likes Bell Brand Los Angeles Rams and finds a centered specimen graded PSA 7 / SGC 84 or better, he had better not wait 'til Saturday or Sunday!

The options for finding cards and coins is much different than it was when I was much more active 25 years ago. Regardless, the impulse and drive that moves us to pursue collectibles has not changed one iota. The creme still rises to the top. The better of the bunch gets the attention, the bids, and the eager buyers. The best of the best are still setting new records.

Here's wishing you a very sincere thrilling National experience. May you come away with at least three things that melted your heart. ---Brian Powell

PS--Robert, since you are a Ted Williams fan, you probably know what Ted's 1954 Wilson Franks means. If you do not happen to own one, as a regional / food card & coin connoisseur, my cheap advice is to go to the National with an aim to get a graded EXCELLENT or NEAR MINT specimen with crisp picture registry and no print spots on Ted. Should you be successful in procuring such a beautiful beast of a card, call your show over. The rich contentment of owning and gazing at your Wilson Weenie Teddy Ballgame will provide you with heaps of assurance you truly had an outstanding show. You won't have a penny left to spend, but that one purchase will bring you thousands of cards worth of satisfaction.

However, and this time I hate to add this disclaimer, in all likelihood any table that has that kind of Wilson Franks Ted Williams is merely displaying it for an upcoming auction. Here is a case where an owner or auction house would not dare setting a "regular" retail price based on Beckett, Krause's Standard Cat, PSA's price guide, or even VCP sales price analysis. They might be underselling it! This case requires the aforementioned studying, but in the end, it will be left to the market to decide what it's worth. The market has always liked that card, and almost always rewards the seller/consignor with a hefty hunk of scratch. I'm referring to NEAR MINT or better; an EXCELLENT you might find on the Bay, and save yourself the trip to the National to help fund it. A quick perusal of the Bay did not turn up an EXCELLENT. Naturally, if you're willing to settle for a lower grade with good eye appeal, then I'm wasting my time with this appeal. Now I'm getting off on other tangents and discussions, or just plain verbosity----time to shut up!

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Brian,

I sincerely appreciate your comments. I don't plan on spending recklessly, but if/when I do see something that really rings my bell, I am willing to spend. If it is the right card in the right grade, I am sometimes willing to go a little above and beyond. This can be true for Ted Williams cards especially. I used to have several of Ted's cards, but I have been off on so many other tangents, that I now only have a couple. I am looking to get restarted on Ted, so to speak. For now, I would probably be content to pick up some of his Topps issues or a '48-49 Leaf. The Wilson's Franks and Red Man issues will eventually happen for me as well as his '54 Bowman. If by some chance I didn't find any Ted cards to my liking, I would be open to some of the '53 Bowman stars. I consider myself a mid grade guy. Cards in the 4-6.5 range that are well-centered, crease/wrinkle free,
and look a little undergraded are some of the best buys in the hobby. I have escaped the trap of being fixated on a number on a holder. I know what I am looking for. I will pay for a well centered 5.5 over a 7 with less than great centering any day. I plan on being at the National from Wednesday through mid-Friday afternoon. I wish it could be longer, but if there is something there for me I will find it during that time. It will be a blast seeing all the dealers and the inventory they have with them. I am not naive enough to expect any bargain basement deals, but I will be on the lookout for good values for the grade. Thanks again for the insight.

Robert

[Jewish-collector]

Here's a beginner's guide to the National:

My advice to first timers is to wear comfortable shoes, carry a large shoulder bag or a pack for your cash, want lists, top loads, plastic cases, and a small box for graded cards. Leave your coat/jacket/sweater in your car. it will be warm at the show. Bring a pen and a notebook to keep track of your purchases and to make a map of dealer booths so you can remember where you saw particular items. Don't pay the listed price for anything. Many times the dealers will offer you a discount before you ask for one. It doesn't hurt to ask for a larger discount that the one that they offer. If you are looking for specific items in specific grades, make a list of the prices that you are willing to pay. It is easy to overpay at the show. If you look hard enough you will find a few bargains, but it may take some time. Bring a small flashlight,a loupe, and a magnifying glass. Bring some $1 bills and $5 bills. It is surprising how many dealers don't have enough change.

When you see a card in a dealers showcase with no price, and you ask the dealer how much he wants for it, usually if he says, "hold on a minute, I'll look it up", you can count on the dealer asking for much more than it is worth. Generally he will be looking for suckers who are willing to overpay, or he really doesn't know how much it is worth and he is "fishing" to see what you will offer. It seems like some of the dealers don't like to acknowledge that you are looking at their cards, and that you may like to buy something from them. They are too busy eating, reading, or sorting their cards to look up and say "hi". It also seems that the dealers who do acknowledge you, talk to you, and ask you questions are the ones who are willing to be flexible on their prices. Some of the dealers are there to sell their cards and turn over their inventory, and some seem to bring the same overpriced crap to show after show.

You will have a blast at the show even if you don't buy that much. The variety and quality of the cards is amazing.

Looking forward to meeting you at the National !!!

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Some helpful nuggets there. I fully intend on note taking and mapping things out as I go so I don't get too turned around. It brings up a question I have had: I don't know exactly what I will end up buying so I don't know how much cash to take. I don't really carry cash, especially large amounts. Are credit cards readily accepted at the National?

[Exhibitman]

No.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Are there ATMs at the Convention Center where a man could get cash when needed?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Also, is Paypal an option? Or is cash expected? If so, I refer back to my ATM question: are they available on site?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I emailed the folks at the National this morning and inquired as to the availability of an ATM. I was told an ATM is available. I figured that would be the case, but my OCD had to know for sure. Only about another month! I feel like a little kid waiting for Christmas!

[ALR-bishop]

It is worth spending time at his tables even if you do not buy a thing

[almostdone]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Also, is Paypal an option? Or is cash expected? If so, I refer back to my ATM question: are they available on site?

I have never been to the National but I do remember seeing this discussed. If I recall an ATM is available but the actual availability of large sums of cash within aren't always there. Imagine the quantities of cash being withdrawn over a few days time. This may have been one previous cities site so it may not be worth comparing to this years, but I could imagine how frustrating it would be to locate "the find" of your life, negotiating a deal, convincing the dealer to hold it while you withdraw cash only to find the machine doesn't have enough available funds.

Cash is also king when trying to negotiate a price at the tables. I would withdraw what your daily budget is before you get on site and have it on your person but like always be careful and aware of your surroundings. I could imagine that pick pockets love a place like the National were there are large sums of cash and people only focused on the tables they look at not at who is walking behind them.

Any differing opinions are welcome from first hand experiences?

Drew

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Hadn't thought of that angle....

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Thanks for all of your replies. Sorry for the rookie National questions, but I want to at least have an idea of how the logistics work once I get to Cleveland. This thread has helped me better determine my limits and precisely what I will be looking for and exactly how much cash I plan on taking with me. Now, it is just a matter of waiting.

[brightair]

It's a hassle not to have the cash you need to close a deal. I always carry the cash and whenever in crowds, move the wallet into a front pocket.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by brightair

It's a hassle not to have the cash you need to close a deal. I always carry the cash and whenever in crowds, move the wallet into a front pocket.

That's just what I was telling a buddy today. Whenever I have been in NYC, the wallet goes to the front. Cash is king, I get it.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Brian,

I sincerely appreciate your comments. I don't plan on spending recklessly, but if/when I do see something that really rings my bell, I am willing to spend. If it is the right card in the right grade, I am sometimes willing to go a little above and beyond. This can be true for Ted Williams cards especially. ..... I consider myself a mid grade guy. Cards in the 4-6.5 range that are well-centered, crease/wrinkle free, and look a little undergraded are some of the best buys in the hobby.

Robert

Robert, glad you found something to appreciate in my long discourse.

Sounds as if you enjoy and hunt for the same kind of condition vintage cards I do. I'm right there with ya, buddy; the cards you pursue are indeed the best buys in the hobby. Again, have a great National. The other guys are giving you good advice. Take care. ---Brian Powell

[ValKehl]

When I go to the National or other major show, my wallet with the amount of cash I typically carry ($50 or so) stays in my back pocket - all the extra cash I bring for the show goes in my front pocket.

However, I always bring far less cash than the amount I am willing to spend at the National because I am reluctant to carry very much cash. But, I always bring my checkbook, and my experience is that many dealers will accept my check - but then again, I've been to approx. 15 Nationals and countless major mid-Atlantic area shows over the years, and many dealers recognize me by now; and occasionally, a dealer at an adjacent table has vouched for me. If I run out of cash and a dealer is reluctant to accept my check, as a last resort, I invite the dealer to ship the card to me after my check clears (if the dealer asks me to, I'm willing to cover the shipping); this approach has never failed to work.
Val