Question about value of T206 card

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Posted By: George Dreher

Could anyone venture a guess on what a graded PSA-4 T206 Powers might bring (top dollar)? The only recently ended values I could find were for PSA-3 and PSA-5 examples. If a PSA-3 should go for $65 and a PSA-5 for $300, shouldn't a PSA-4 end up almost exactly between those two values?

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Posted By: Dave F

George,

Not sure where you saw a PSA 5 for for $300. The highest 5 went for $270, that was last June. The last 5 was $224.

But to answer your original question..the last three PSA 4's went for $67, $103, and $76.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Here's the item # 230106850621 of one that ended 5 days ago on eBay, a PSA 5.


Frank.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i was the underbidder on the PSA 5 Powers...i set my bid around 222, then forgot about it...i thought i would easily win it...but, guess not.

i am "eyeing" a PSA 6 privately, the guy has a price of $715 (which is way overpriced), but i will only go for it, IF i can negotiate that down.

there are 4 different PSA 4's in the eBay store, all between $130-150 "buy it now"...obviously all overpriced

i would say a PSA 4 is worth between $85-100

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Posted By: Dylan

Thought id ad one point... when inquiring or mentioning prices of T206's, its vital to mention if it has a premium brand back or not. And ss far as i know Powers is a common, cant you just do a search of what psa 4 commons are selling for and get an idea from that? I dont see why a thread would be neccesary.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

dylan- this forum is for vintage card collectors who have questions, and others who have answers...i see no problem with this thread, and i do not think leon would either...

p.s. mike powers is not just a "common". he is one of less then a dozen of cards that were only printed in the first series, he died after only one game into the 1909 season...so obviously, he commands a premium.

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Posted By: George Dreher

Thanks to everyone except Dylan for their responses. If I had been curious about a rare back Powers card I would have mentioned it in the question.

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Posted By: John

George, you cant be in the market for a Powers can you?? Surely out of 6000+ T206's you would have at least one?? No offense but you said your collection would be in the tens of millions, I would think a guy with your caliber collection would have an idea of a T206 common value??

I’m confused….

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Posted By: Joann

Ditto what Mike S said.

Dylan, please stop telling people they shouldn't have started threads, or that their topics are not post worthy (or however you put it a few weeks ago when you did the same thing) or what they should have done instead of starting a thread.

First of all, it's not really up to you. We have md's (moderator dudes) to steer people to the right area of BST and make sure threads are on topic or whatever.

Second, you haven't been on this board long enough to presume to tell others whether their posts, questions or threads have value or not. Very pretentious.

Joann

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Posted By: Ed

I dont like bidding on 4s and 6s when there is a wide disparity in book values. Fertile for bidding wars.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

get 'em, Joann!!

And Powers is lumped into the commons in the price guides, which just goes to show you how wrong they can be. His card is NOT common.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DYLAN

There are 11 cards in the T206 set that are only available with 150 Series backs. They were SHORT-PRINTED
relative to all the other cards in the set. Eight with only Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign and a seldom
seen brown Hindu back.

These 8 players include....

M. Brown (Cubs)
G. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (batting)
Evers (bat-blue sky)
Pattee
Pelty
POWERS
Reulbach (glove)

and....3 others are even more rare than these 8 cards.

Donlin (fielding)....only Piedmont, Sweet Cap and Hindu
Magie (only Piedmont)
Honus Wagner (only Piedmont and Sweet Cap)

PS....
There are several of us veteran vintage collectors on this Forum, that are really getting "fed up" with
immature comments like yours directed at us. You could at least try to be knowledgeable about what
you are being critical of, before you post.

TED Z

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Posted By: Darren

Amen.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I wouldn't be surprised if Powers is even a little tougher than some of the other "150 series only" cards for the simple reason that he died before the first cards were even released. Is it possible he was discontinued midway through the first print run?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Barry,

I've long thought that he could have been discontinued. Also, some kids would have thrown him away after he passed away... I agree... Powers is tougher than folks think.

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Posted By: George Dreher

Already have all the Powers T206 cards I needed for my collection. There is such a thing as purchasing for resale I am heavily into buy and sell. And although I had some idea, I was not absolutely sure of the going rate on a PSA-4 Powers in particular, so it's nice to have some feedback from the forum experts and veterans.
At this time, the only T206 cards I am actively going after for my own collection are Tolstoi back HOFers.

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Posted By: Dylan

i bought mine in VG for 27.50.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

dylan- congrats on a super deal!

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Posted By: Dave S

Is not the Lundgren/Chicago a 150-only variation or am I mistaken?

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Posted By: Trae R.

Here's some good reading on the subject:
http://www.nikanit.com/Vintage/t206150.html

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well you are and you are not....mistaken. This Lundgren is virtually a "150-only" card.

If you sample 100 Lundgren (Cubs) cards, you will be lucky to find 2 that have a Piedmont 350 back.
And, out of a sample of 200 Lundgren's, you might find an EPDG back. This data is from my personal
experience with this card and I have been collecting T206's since 1981. Here's a scan of the only 3
possible backs for this card.....



TED Z collection

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Posted By: John

Thanks George for the input…I was confused. I just consider anyone with a tractor-trailer sized collection and 40,000+ pre-war cards both and expert and veteran at the same time. LOL

P.S. Why even purchase one for re-sale surely you must have like 100 Powers cards just pick a VG one and flip it. That would be an interesting survey out of your 6000+ T206s which player pops up the most and what are the most common backs? Any Plank, Magie or Doyle’s in there???? Cant help but think one or 2 would pop up in 6000??

Good stuff take care.

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Posted By: Dave S

Guess we learn something everyday, I was not aware of Lundgren with the "350" Piedmont...thanks!

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Posted By: Trae R.

Ted, I love you. In a manly, T206 related way.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

These six cards in the T206 set are virtually "150-only" cards, as they are seldom found with a 350 back.
And, this 350 back will only be a Piedmont 350.
As "150 cards", these 6 can be found with Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Sovereign, and a rare Hindu or an EPDG.



Dahlen (Bos)....Ganley....Tom Jones

Karger...........Lindaman.....Mullin

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Posted By: Dylan

my point in the original post, that everyone put me down for making, was the same as wonkas. The person who started this thread claims to own like 6,000 T206, and have a collection valued at 10 million plus. It just seems odd to me that someone with that vast of collection would be asking a question about resell value of this powers card

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Posted By: George Dreher

No John, only have 4 Powers T206 cards. I enjoy buying raw cards and having them graded then reselling.

Dylan, I am retired and have a lot of time on my hands to do nothing but surf the internet, peruse auction catalogs and pursue other leads in an effort to collect and invest in what interests me. There are millionaires who spend their leisure time building matchstick houses and undertaking similar endeavors, no doubt they would come under similar scrutiny from individuals who think they should be spending all of their time in more "productive and constructive" ways.

I've been reading this forum off and on for several years now and made a New Year's resolution to interact more with fellow collectors of sportscards, but I can see from the vitriol that greets many here, 2007 might be the first and last year I contribute to Net54........preferring instead to vanish back into obscurity.

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Posted By: Dylan

C'mon man, I had like 10 people give me **** on this thread, and i keep comin back. People may be a little suspicious when someone comes on an internet forum and claim to have the most valued collection of anyone whos ever posted. Its only natural. People disagree all the time but within a few days people move on, generally, and no one even thinks of it again.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

George,

Your question was totally legitimate.

Please ignore the noise and keep on posting.

Ted,

Great summary of the landscape, as usual. I think Doyle (Throwing) might also fit your profile of "virtual" 150-onlys that are seen in 350 solely and rarely with the Piedmont 350 back. Doyle (Throwing) never showed up in my ebay survey with a 350 back and I believe Lee Behrens alone indicated that he had one with Piedmont 350 in your Net54 survey of possible 150-onlys.

And then there are Ames (Hands at Chest), Ewing and Schulte (Front View), who in addition to the eleven 150-only subjects you have mentioned I don't think have ever been confirmed with any 350 back--although Ewing is possible with EPDG.

Barry, Frank,

My eBay study found that Powers is actually the easiest of the 150-only subjects. The reason is that Powers is the ONLY 150-only subject who can be found with the Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 overprint back. While that back is not particularly common, since it only appears on about three dozen different subjects in the set it adds meaningfully to the population of those three dozen subjects.

Scot

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Posted By: George Dreher

I doubt if I have the most valuable collection. Ted Z. looks like he has a lot more of the valuable rarities and at least one other person here has the Wagner T206.
I just have a large number of cards.


edited for grammatical error

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I share your sentiments.....I am retired, too, and devote a lot of time to this great hobby. Between
my 3 grandchildren and this hobby, I keep young. And, I am very fortunate that I have a very sup-
portive wife of anything to do with BaseBall.

I first responded to this forum about 1 1/2 years ago when a member contacted me with regard to a
particular BB set expertise of mine and could I resolve an ongoing debate on this forum. So, I posted
and I sort became addicted to Net54 ever since.

Unfortunately, there are some on this forum that either suffer from the "non-invented here" syndrome,
and choose only to be negative in whatever they post. Or, it's just a basic immaturity that spawns an
attitude towards some us....and, especially those of us who prefer to collect UNGRADED cards.

Currently, in another Thread I posted a card that I am being told by some....is "altered". I have closely
examined this card and have contradicted this charge. Yet, at a distance, viewing my imperfect scan,
they are telling me otherwise. Is this ridiculous, or what ?

Their attitude is, if it's not in PLASTIC, it's automatically assumed to be ALTERED....FAKE....or WHATEVER.

GEORGE....it's really a shame that this is going on here, as there are some great guys & gals on this Forum
that contribute positive, meaningful posts.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

George,

I highly recommend vintagecardprices.com for these kinds of inquiries. If you are into buying raw and selling graded, this is an absolute must of a resource to pin-point what your buying/selling thresholds should be.

However, you have to lump me into the skeptic category with John and Dylan. You are certainly under no obligation to produce proof of your amazing collection, but newcomers to this Board with fantastic claims about the sizes of their collections will often be received skeptically. It is not meanness as much as it is human nature.

For example, I have first-hand knowledge of the breadth and depth of Ted's collection; and we know that Hal has a T206 Wagner. But if I came onto this Board as a newbie and claimed to have Wagner and Plank, without showing scans or anything, and then asked how much PSA 4 commons were going for, it would seem awfully fishy.

Without being insulted, can you understand why that seems fishy?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think George is going to like hanging around here much longer...but I admit I too was skeptical when he said he had a collection worth tens of millions. But in the end, he seems pleasant and contributes to the board, so I hope he stays. You do need thick skin to swim in these dangerous waters.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

I can understand why people would want cranks to put up or shut up. But George is no crank. His posts are well written, thoughtful and without typos. What crank would ask a question as unspectacular as what a PSA 4 Powers is worth?

Asking him to prove the contents of his collection on this thread amounts to publicly calling him a liar. I find it obnoxious. If it is human nature, too bad for us as a species.

George is obviously interested in serious discussion of vintage baseball cards. Why should anything else matter?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that his posts have been solid. I am just pointing out that it is not entirely unreasonable to be skeptical of the claims made regarding his collection, which, I also agree, were not made in an obnoxious tone -- he didn't frown upon the little people or anything.

I am just saying that I see both sides to this quarter.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

"Unfortunately, there are some on this forum that either suffer from the "non-invented here" syndrome,
and choose only to be negative in whatever they post. Or, it's just a basic immaturity that spawns an
attitude towards some us....and, especially those of us who prefer to collect UNGRADED cards."

Ted,

I'm with Trae on this. I like you as well.....

But your skin is way to thick and some of us would miss out on way to much knowledge for you to ever leave.

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Posted By: John

Guys, give me a break!

No one asked George to put up or shut up, nobody called George a liar and no one was really being mean to George.

The man claims to have 1300+ 19th baseball cards, have over 6000+ T206s in screw-downs no less. And have a collection which would take at least a tractor-trailer to carry off from the bank in which he keeps his 40,000+ pre-war card collection for $500 dollars a year in bank fees.

Based on that description which is directly from George. Do you really find it that unreasonable for anyone including myself to ask huh, on a T206 VGEX Powers value question…or to wonder why he only has 4 Powers out of 6000+ T206s? I find that interesting and a statistical oddity at the least, regardless of any proof of ownership.

If anything I have asked George to share info on the massive collection as it may add insight to all the meaningful posts by Ted etc…. blah, blah, blah

You guys crack me up, not long ago a simple collector posted a few E107’s that he didn’t own just to show the cards, not unlike Bobby does with the vintage card prices images. Many of you guys virtually tarred and feathered this poor kid to death, the kid had to issue a public apology to end the beating and gain acceptance back. I have been at the least civil and polite to George regarding any and all inquires regarding his collection, not sure what else I’m to do and don’t tell me I’m the only that has questions regarding this amazing collection which George owns….



Dylan for the record if your post had the same point I was trying to ask you didn’t get that across at all. You came across a bit like mini-moderator telling George what he could and couldn't do. However if your trying to jump to my side to look for strength in numbers from your above beating, please don’t.

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Posted By: John

Ted,

I certainly hope your not lumping me in with the I just fell off the turnip truck collector plastic or die brigade, which you and the other veterans describe so often? And this is certainly not an UNGRADED vs. GRADED thing here Ted, there are a lot of collections out there that aren’t in plastic mine included. I’m also smart enough to know it doesn’t have to be in plastic to exist.

I’m not sure why everything on this board turns into a graded or non-graded debate, its like the road in which all conversations lead. The Raw guys are the westbound side of the freeway and the Plastic guys the east bound. Cant there be sleepy little country roads where both exist or has the above super highway shut them all down.

I myself have been collecting for quite sometime, share images and add quality posts as well. Are you insinuating Ted that I don’t add anything to this forum other than being mean to old-timers?? LOL I hope not.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Come on guy, you know me better than that. I am not a confrontational dude. But, I be darned if someone (like
Dylan) attacks a guy like George, simply because George asked a legitimate T206 question....I'm not going to sit
back and ignore this. As, I too, have been the target of such "attacks" lately and it's time to speak up and answer
these attacks.

Is it immaturity or sheer jealousness when a Net54 member questions the validity of another members' personal
collection claims ? There is no call for that, here. What does it prove ?

I thought the general theme of this Forum was to share, show and talk BB and BB cards....not to "bust each
other's chops".

TED Z

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Posted By: John

Ted,

I hear ya and for the record I’m not the only “questioning the validity” of the collection in question. Go back and read the original thread even or own moderator said, “It sounds almost to good to be true”.

Surely even you can admit that if the collection George has so graciously shared with us if real, it’s the stuff dreams are made out of, it would be an amazing discovery. I mean has there been a collection offered in the past 10 yrs that had the amount of cards George is talking about? Kudos to him for owning them, but I find it amazing and a bit hard to believe that’s all, and I find it confusing that he’s in the market at all for the above card. I find it even harder to swallow that he’s looking for the card to buy and sell; most people who buy and sell anything have a rough idea of values.

It just doesn’t add up, sorry if I’m not supposed to question any of this, but if George is pulling or leg a bit or exaggerating, why? And if that is the case (which I’m not saying it is) coming on here and lying about this is IMO worse than questioning the validity of anyone’s collection.

And Ted we do this all the time, how often does someone post a card and ten posts behind it are “do you own that” the person either says yes, or admits he just likes the card sorry for posting without a disclaimer. I’m doing nothing different its just I’m asking about 40,000 instead of one.

Ted now lets discuss something really important, what are you going to eat at dinner steak or fish, and are you a wine or beer man?

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Posted By: Matthew

Re: those 6 virtual 150 only cards in your last scan. How uncommon would those cards be with an EPDG or Hindu back? Are they the same as Lundgren, 2 or 3 times out of 100 cards? I am curious since Lindaman is one of my favorite poses. I have had several EPDG Lindamans over the years. Currently I have 2 SCs, 1 Piedmont, & 2 EPDGs. Thanks for the info. I have enjoyed your observations on the T206 set. Matthew

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Posted By: George Dreher

<Without being insulted, can you understand why that seems <fishy?

No, not really but I appreciate the link. I did an eBay search and only came up with 3s and 5s. If anyone thinks a query about the value of Powers in PSA-4 was strange, I'm capable of even more unpredictable threads than that. Even though I have a lot of cards, there are still things I'm not up to date on or have trouble determining occasionally.

Yes, I only have 4 T206 Powers listed on inventory, one for each back. How could someone accumulate 100 Powers cards? If you have 11 of every card, you would have more T206 than me and consider the rarity of certain cards such as the Powers card. Do the math.

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Posted By: John

George,

“How could someone accumulate 100 Powers cards?”

“Do the math.”

I am doing the math I guess that’s where my questions are coming from….

Obviously you don’t have 11 Wagners, 11 Planks, 11 Doyles or 11 Magies, so with 6000 T206s your going to have to have certain cards which you will have more of. Red Cobbs for instance are quite common or at least show up enough I don’t think any of the “veterans” would argue that.

So lets just say the Red Cobb makes up less than 1% of your T206’s which would be shooting low for this card, one could argue that this card is somewhat plentiful or at least more than 1%. But even using just less than 1% you would still have about 59 T206 Red Cobbs.

More math 6000 t206s in screw-downs, taking the avg. size plastic screw-down you would have about 4 cards to the inch. 12 inches to the foot run that thru 6000. That would leave you if you stacked them end to end with around 125ft of T206s.

Math from another forum member…

“It sounds incredible. 60,000 pre-war baseball cards?!!! Amazing. In your 40+ years of collecting you must have added an average of over 100 pre-war baseball cards per month, every single month! In 40 years, that would still leave you shy of 50,000.

Even if you had 10 complete T206 sets and every different Old Judge player and pose known, you'd still need over 50,000 more cards. You must have dupes upon dupes upon dupes.”

It’s the math that raises the questions George not the person or the person who owns the collection. I want to believe you, and for the most part I do I guess, it’s just the math behind it that makes me scratch my head. You said you take up one wall in bank vault, just the T206s alone would take a boatload of safety deposit boxes, even my meager collection takes the 5 biggest boxes my bank has, and I have less half a percent of what you have, not to mention it costs me more than $500 bucks for the boxes.

George I do apologize if I offended you and I will never inquire about your collection from here on, but to quote even Leon “it's almost hard to believe it sounds so great” please don’t be offended by my inquires be proud you have a collection that defies most imaginations here.

Kudos and good collecting to you.


Edited to correct math for Steve M below.

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Posted By: barrysloate

George seems like an intelligent person, and as I said, he makes a valuable contribution to the board.

But I do understand the awe, myself included, that some feel based on the sheer number of cards he says he has. 6000 T206 is the equivalent of twelve sets. I think even George would understand that anybody claiming to have twelve sets would likely raise a few eyebrows among his fellow collectors.

It's simply that the numbers defy explanation, even if every bit of it is true. And since George kind of popped up out of nowhere...well, you can see why there is a bit of skepticism. And sometimes the skeptics can be wrong.

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Posted By: Joann

I'm with both sides here.

I agree with John Wonka that a collection of the size described is stunning. Would it be the largest collection that anyone here has ever heard of? I think it would be, right? That is bound to generate a reaction of some kind. I think questions related to the magnitude should be expected - it does boggle the mind - and it seems to me that the questions here and in other threads have been fairly courteous and tame (especially as this board goes sometimes).

I also agree with John W that Dylan was making no such point when he posted. He was simply being rude to a legitimate question, and then tried to hitchhike on someone else that at least had substance behind his reservations.

And I agree with everyone that says George asked a legitimate question and has been a great poster in other threads. I, for one, am glad to see him here contributing and hope he stays.

Personal opinion? I hope you stay, George, and also hope that you can understand that some responsive questions to a collection of that magnitude are pretty natural, and not take offense. As to someone challenging you directly on why you needed to ask that question and suggesting that it's not "thread-worthy" or whatever - well all I can say about that is stick around anyways. Some people just don't know how to act.

Joann

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Posted By: Dave

George's collection sounds like it's awesome. when I was younger I used to run fantasy baseball leagues, and for a few years I had a set of twin brothers who joined my league. One day we got to talking about baseball memorabilia, and they told me I should come over to their place and check out their collection.
Needless to say it was the massive....I've never seen anything like it before. their whole house was filled with memorabilia from the 19th century to the present. the attic was filled with boxes of cards, and when I thought that was it, they took me to the basement. Almost every inch of the walls was covered with pictures, autographs, bats, balls, gloves,jerseys, hats, you name it....they collected all sports related items they could find it seemed. then they showed me the garage. you could not see to the back end of the garage because the boxes and cases of cards were stacked over 8 feet high. These guys still live somewhere in Ohio, and they used to own some bars and night clubs, one of them worked for the Minnesota twins for a while also...so others on this board may know them. Our local newspaper ran a story on them sometime back in the early 90's, and shortly after that story ran the attemtped break-ins and robberies started. they eventually had to move most of their stuff to a rented , secure location. Their was also an arson attempt that almost destroyed the contents of the "garage"...I just remember thinking that some people must be pretty sorry ass to do something like that. I wish I knew where those guys were today. (Hey Bruce if you and your brother read this forum by some chance , contact me or Mojo.)
Those of you who question the validity of Georges claims.....he could very well be telling the absolute truth when he talks about his collection. the brothers I knew spent their whole lives building a huge collection that still remains relatively unknown to the world.Just from knowing them for the limited time I did , I would reckon they don't use the internet, and have never liked price guides and grading companies otherwise some of their items would have surely surfaced by now. As for having multiple copies of T206 cards....my brother and I have at least 15 of each Cincinnati Reds player ( Ed Karger is the toughest in my experience), and almost the same of Pittsburgh ( no Honus Wagner...BOO!!, but Gibson has always been harder to find than the others). We also have at least 5-6 of each minor league player I'm pretty sure except the Hall of Famers. We are not retired and we are not rich; we spend about $500-$4,000 a month just on T206 cards and E90-1's, and T3's.
Just out of curiousity...is anyone on the board here reluctant to post about your collection because of the fear that crooks or thieves may find out about what you've got and attemtp to steal it. Just something my dad mentioned the other night when I told him about this forum. He jokingly said to be careful about what you post ...."there may be crooks reading those posts, then they can trace your name on the internet and who knows what they might be thinking."

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Yes, Dave.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Absolutely, Dave.

-Al

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Posted By: George Dreher

<Just out of curiousity...is anyone on the board here reluctant to post about your collection because of the fear that crooks or thieves may find out about what you've <got and attemtp to steal it.

Yes.

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Posted By: Dylan

Arent services like cardpricer.com, or vintagecardprices.com perfect for these kind of inquiries. Not to be rude (but im sure one or all of the "holier then thou" posters will tell me I am) but if i started posting inquires to prices of T206's I guarantee someone would tell me to go look it up. You know how i know this? Because one of my first posts was inquiring to the value of a T206 and thats exactly the type of attitude i was given. I was even compared by a couple guys to some poster named Shawn who, I found later to be a little kid who obsessed about expensive cards and their value, and was banned from Net54 for being so obnoxious. But I'm sure that none of the people who call me mean and vindictive have ever come across like that to anyone.