Thank you ..... Joe D.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I think you solved a question that's been driving me sane ever since I got involved with the Slow Joe Doyle error card back in 1987.

We all know that they caught the Doyle league designation error faster than they caught the Magie spelling error.

They committed an error, and caught it fast, but then they went out and committed a second error, an error of omission.
They omitted to replace the Nat'l league, with the Amer league designation. ..... WHY?

Why did they leave it blank?
Why did they create the only unbalanced looking card in the T206 set?
All they had to do was reset the type.
I don't think that it would have taken that long.

I say that because back in 1944, at the age of thirteen, at a Jr. high school in NYC, I had a course in printing.
The printing press was probably from the period of the T206 set, and possibly donated to the school.
Whatever it was, that monster always scared the hell out of me, and I always visualized my hand becoming part of the printing process.

Joe D, when I read this:

"Ted - that is pretty cool June 4 2007, 6:16 PM

And I think we can safely say those cards with the dot - were almost "Nat'l"s

The printer polished out that area on the plate (instead of making a new one) and left some of the 'N' there.

I'm not sure how long plates lasted back then, how long the press runs were (or if plates were held for more than one run)....
so its hard to say how tough these would be to find.

But to me, the cool part is that the card was almost a Natl - and could very well have been part of the same press run as the Natl cards."

*
*

When I read the above, I yelled out EUREKA!
You've nailed it.
What is this polished out format that you speak of?
Remember, I didn't do this for very long, and we're talking 63 years ago.

I know that there's some one on the forum in the printing trade.
Are you the one?

Thanks again
Joe P.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

"What is this polished out format that you speak of?"

... Its basically a term for erasing something on the printing plate. It takes just moments for a pressman to do this - and you don't have to go through the time and expense of making a new plate. The pressman did a sloppy job and left a little bit of the N.
... The other possibility (but I am guessing not likely) is that the "Natl" was cut away from the flats (the film used to make the plates) and the person who did that did a sloppy job and left part of the N. After that, every plate would have that little mark - and possibly an astute pressman would see that during the run and polish out the dot. (I think the other scenario is more likely, but maybe with the numbers from Ted's survey I will change my mind).



"I know that there's some one on the forum in the printing trade.
Are you the one?"

.... I don't think I am the only one.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I guess my question really is:
How did they exactly polish, or erase whatever portion of the plate they wanted to erase?

A couple of years later, about 1946 or 1947, I recall going with my high school class to the New York Times building.
Now that was a massive operation, and no comparison to the one old printing press at the jr high school.

I would surmise that the printing facilities of the then tobacco cards, were smaller than the NY Times, but larger than the one old printing press at my Patrick Henry jr high school.

From 1909, we're talking about an almost one hundred years period.
The technology, and printing press have changed, at least I think they have. ... you guys tell me.

My limited recollections is boiled down to the memory of using a wooden mallet to secure a freshly created plate to the press, sixty three years ago.

I certainly appreciate your input, and the possible inputs of others in or out of the printing worldt.

Did the pressmen have a union then?

Did someone say "Quitten time" - let some one else change the league designation?

Joe P.

I have two common Joe Doyle's ... P350/SC350 ... no marks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I can appreciate your HS print shop days......I was fascinated with printing as a kid.
And, I took two semesters of print shop. Mr Muzik (our teacher) would take us on
school trips to the Print Shops in Elizabeth (NJ) and to the Eliz. Daily Journal (news-
paper) for a change of pace from type-setting in class.

The one aspect of printing that I recall that has essentially remained the same since
the 1950's is the 4 - color inking phases in color printing. Back then, and now, the
stages of inking are BLACK - YELLOW - MAGENTA - CYAN (blue).

Joe D. am I correct about this process ?


Joe P you stated......

I have two common Joe Doyle's ... P350/SC350 ... no marks."

Can I add these two in the Survey I am conducting ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"Joe P you stated......

I have two common Joe Doyle's ... P350/SC350 ... no marks."

Can I add these two in the Survey I am conducting ?

TED Z"

*
*

Ted, please allow me to explain something.
Before I started this thread, I contemplated entering a post in your thread, and although my printing question was somewhere within the scope of your thread, I did't want to chance that anyone would think that I was side tracking your thread.
As relating as both questions might be, the energies needed to search for the answers, requires one to walk down different Avenues.

Your search for the answers to the mark, is an interesting one.
It's new to me, I never heard of it. ... and I'm very much into the Doyle.

It sounds like Joe D. has nailed it.
I am following it with interest.
I entered my common Joe Doyle info, hoping that you would see it for your research.

As for my question about the Joe Doyle error of Omission.
That question has been gnawing at me since 1987.

How long would it have taken to correct it?

They corrected the MAGIE?

Joe P.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Yes, they were SLOW to catch the MAGIE; and, who knows how many of these cards
they issued of him. Anyway, we do know roughly how many MAGIE cards survived.

But, when the 2nd Series was issued they were very FAST in catching "SLOW Joe" with
their error.

And, consider this.....they must of been in a real hurry to issue this card. As they didn't
even bother to redo the plate to say "Amer." (or "American" like the Demmitt (NY) card).
But, I ask you.....why were they in a hurry ?
Joe Doyle's pitching career was over in 1910. He pitched in less than 10 games.

Regards,
TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"And, consider this.....they must of been in a real hurry to issue this card. As they didn't even bother to redo the plate to say "Amer." (or "American" like the Demmitt (NY) card).
But, I ask you.....why were they in a hurry ?
Joe Doyle's pitching career was over in 1910. He pitched in less than 10 games."

Regards,
TED Z

*
*

Ted, I have to chuckle a little, and please consider it a friendly chuckle, and not a malicious one.

When you said: ... "And, consider this".
It sounded like if you were addressing me as a Johnny come lately, as to the question of why didn't the pressmen correct the league designation on the printing plate?
I've been asking that question since I got my Doyle in 1987.
On the other hand, it isn't that very long ago that you've become a Slow Joe Doyle believer.

Why, it's maybe a year or two that you had a debate with Barry S. about Joe Doyle.
He was pro, and you were con.

As for Joe Doyle, we can't really go by his career numbers.
In five years, he had a 22 and 22 record, then arm problems did him in, in 1910.

The only real picture we can get of the man, is by his peers.

Pitcher Jack Chesbro, of 41 wins 12 loss fame in 1904, was a big fan of Slow Joe.

Pitcher - Mgr Clark Griffith, Doyle's first manager with the Highlanders, liked him so mush, that when he went to manage the Reds, he took Doyle on the team.
He was hoping that Doyle would overcome his arm trouble in 1910.
It didn't happen.

No one was more happier than Ty Cobb, when Slow Joe got his arm problems.
Doyle drove Cobb sane.
Slow Joe's pitching delivery were of the extreme deliberate kind.
One could read War and Peace, in between pitches.

An example.
During the late forties and early fifties, I got to see Spud Chandler, Red Ruffing, Bevans, Spec Shea, Allie Reynolds, Raschi, Whitey Ford and a guy by the name of Steady Eddie Lopat.

Steady Eddie had three pitches.

Slow.

Slower.

And SLOWEST.

Legend tells us that he once threw a pitch in da Bronx, that was so slow, that the batter was able to measure it off and take three good swings at it, before the ball reached home plate.
The silence in the Bronx park was deafening.
The batter was not to be seen, except for his cap in front of home plate.

He had screwed himself into the ground.

Now back to Slow Joe Doyle, and Cobb.
Doyle died in 1947, Tannersville, N. H.
According to some of the old timers, to try to compare Slow Joe Doyle and Steady Eddie, wouldn't even be close.

Steady Eddie in comparison to Slow Joe, would look like Bob Feller.

Cobb was glad to see Slow Joe go to the Reds.

Best regards.
Joe