Today's Wash. Post has major piece re the BB card fraud

[Duluth Eskimo]

Kudos to you for commenting.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Drive safely. When you have a moment, I am curious as to how far back and to what extent victims are being notified.

On a side note, is PSA requesting possession of the cards in exchange for reimbursement? I'd imagine that would be a significant sticking point for them. Some of these cards still have significant value (for obvious reasons) as a PSA Authentic.

Buyers are being notified by email and phone. The first round of buyers are those who bought clearly altered cards, i.e. trimming and recoloring. The more grey stuff (cleaning, pressed corners) is being mostly put on the back burner for now except in egregious cases. This is all a fluid situation subject to my discussions with the government. It’s not a perfect situation but it’s more perfect than anything that has ever occurred previously in fraud cases in the hobby.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Buyers are being notified by email and phone. The first round of buyers are those who bought clearly altered cards, i.e. trimming and recoloring. The more grey stuff (cleaning, pressed corners) is being mostly put on the back burner for now except in egregious cases. This is all a fluid situation subject to my discussions with the government. It’s not a perfect situation but it’s more perfect than anything that has ever occurred previously in fraud cases in the hobby.

If I understand this correctly, only buyers of publicly outed cards are being notified?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

If I understand this correctly, only buyers of publicly outed cards are being notified?

No.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I'm I the only one on this board that places a lot of fault on PSA in regards to all this mess???

Not Criminal....Making a Lot of Mistakes by not catching Obvious Alterations which according to their grading requirements are not supposed to get a number grade in holder.

What is PSA's purpose in the industry ????

I’ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

Regardless... thanks to Jeff for coming on to explain and clarify. The fact that PWCC has acknowledged the alterations and misrepresentations is a good start. So are the refunds (which I have a hunch are due to some sound legal counsel). Hopefully this case can transpire in such a way that tenets and conservation never become the new “norm”. It will be an interesting next few months.

[111gecko]

Will give credit to Jeff for responding here...he certainly didn't need to, nor need to respond to any of the follow up questions so far.

Hopefully he will answer this one just for fun:

Are you representing Moser as well or do you intend to if asked?...or have the H's totally separated themselves from him?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by calvindog

No.

Who is responsible for providing information on whether a card has been altered (or conserved)?

Back to my original scenario, if Dealer X consigned 5,000 since 2012 through PWCC and has now been "outed" as a potential card doctor. What is the process for notifying victims? How many are notified?

Maybe 100 of the 5,000 cards have been publicly outed. What is the process? Do you start with the publicly outed "clearly altered cards" then politely ask Dealer X if any others were "clearly altered?" Is it a threshold?

I'm not trying to criticize the process, again, I'm just curious.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

Regardless... thanks to Jeff for coming on to explain and clarify. The fact that PWCC has acknowledged the alterations and misrepresentations is a good start. So are the refunds (which I have a hunch are due to some sound legal counsel). Hopefully this case can transpire in such a way that tenets and conservation never become the new “norm”. It will be an interesting next few months.

Agree Sir. I'm also very thankful for Jeffrey's response. Class Act

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't Brent have to get charged first? If he hasn't been charged with any crime yet, then why would he hire a criminal lawyer?

Its Brent's hope that this PREVENTS him from being charged, hence all the cooperation and restitution. Question is will all this cooperation prevent Brent from going to jail which is where Jeff has previously said he belongs?

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

you don't see him commenting here anymore do you? Probably not a joke.... other than on us, the collectors.

That Brent Mastro is SMART. Good luck on your case Calvindog!

Remember what Michael Corleone said. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Agree Sir. I'm also very thankful for Jeffrey's response. Class Act

Why wouldn't or shouldn't he reply? He's being paid by Brent to do damage control!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Who is responsible for providing information on weather a card has been altered (or conserved)?

Back to my original scenario, if Dealer X consigned 5,000 since 2012 through PWCC and has now been "outed" as a potential card doctor. What is the process for notifying victims? How many are notified?

Maybe 100 of the 5,000 cards have been publicly outed. What is the process? Do you start with the publicly outed "clearly altered cards" then politely ask Dealer X if any others were "clearly altered?" Is it a threshold?

I'm not trying to criticize the process, again, I'm just curious.

Every card that an 'outed' dealer/consignor has provided to PWCC is not a bad card. Some cards were cracked out and resubmitted; some had a corner pressed down. Not every card in a submission is bad when there is 1, 2 or even 10 bad ones in a submission.

As to who is providing info on bad cards, keep in mind that I don't represent every person who consigned to PWCC. With the government's help, with the help of the Blowout guys who did incredible work here, we're able to determine some of the bad cards. The government has sources who have provided them info about cards, some of that is shared with us and a discussion is had. I can tell you that we are erring on the side of giving refunds back. This is a fluid situation as I have said. It is not a perfect situation by any means, but it's a start.

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Its Brent's hope that this PREVENTS him from being charged, hence all the cooperation and restitution. Question is will all this cooperation prevent Brent from going to jail which is where Jeff has previously said he belongs?

Michael, this decision isn't up to me. I took the case primarily to accomplish something more for buyers harmed than what had previously occurred in other hobby cases. As for my opinions on the people involved, whatever I said I believed but was before significant assistance has been provided to the government. But punishment is not my decision.

I'll speak more about this as time goes on and I'm willing to be contacted with any bad cards that need to be refunded.

[drcy]

One note is that everyone deserves a good defense attorney no matter who they are-- even El Chapo and Jeffrey Dahmer. Saying otherwise is to say all charges are always correct, one side gets lawyers and the other does not, and we can/should determine guilt even before a trial. Everyone also deserves a competent physician when sick or injured-- including those who, unlike Brent, actually have been convicted and are in prison.

If Jeffrey L., or any other defense lawyer, serves as a lawyer for PWCC, El Chapo, Charles Manson or Bernie Madoff, there is absolutely nothing wrong about that.

And, no, I'm not equating PWCC with Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Mason

[CrackaJackKid]

After all that bashing time after time and now you’re representing him? Am I in the twilight zone?!?!?. 🤦*♂️

[Touch'EmAll]

I am a tax guy. Lets say someone brings in their paperwork/records to get their taxes done. It is my job to get it right - by the law. If what the client brings me looks suspect or fraudulent, I explain to the client the situation, why I think it may not be correct, the ramifications, and offer to help get it right ... or show them the door. There is no leeway. The IRS can fine me, even revoke my license, if found I fraudulently did a return.

That said, the analogy is PSA is me, the preparer. If PSA lets loose a fraudulent card, they are to blame. They are the professionals who do this for a living. There should be legal consequence for PSA. PSA should be held more accountable than any other entity in this whole mess.

Right or wrong - my 2 cents.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Why wouldn't or shouldn't he reply? He's being paid by Brent to do damage control!

Actually, Brent is unaware that I'm even posting here today. I don't have to provide a single iota of information to the people here -- Brent's issues are with the government first and foremost. I'm posting because I think it's the right thing to do and I'd like to clean up as much of this mess as possible and provide some clarity. I've helped the feds on any number of hobby fraud cases and will continue to do so. I've successfully sued Mastro and Allen and collected hundreds of thousands of dollars from them and their co-conspirators whereas the government collected $0 in restitution from them. I'm hardly coming on here and spinning some bullshit to help Brent out.

[drcy]

Though it is kind of funny if Brent said "Uh oh. I'm in such big trouble that I'd better get El Chapo's lawyer."

Though, obviously, Jeffrey has knowledge of this particular hobby, which it seems is what one would want for a lawyer on either side. You don't want to hire a lawyer who collects beanie babies or funky earrings-- totally different law. I'm sure Brent has also gone into this knowing that Jeffrey is a dog person ("Betsy, we can't chance it. Hide the cat! Oh, shoot, the closet's full. Call it Fido and maybe he won't notice.")

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Every card that an 'outed' dealer/consignor has provided to PWCC is not a bad card. Some cards were cracked out and resubmitted; some had a corner pressed down. Not every card in a submission is bad when there is 1, 2 or even 10 bad ones in a submission.

As to who is providing info on bad cards, keep in mind that I don't represent every person who consigned to PWCC. With the government's help, with the help of the Blowout guys who did incredible work here, we're able to determine some of the bad cards. The government has sources who have provided them info about cards, some of that is shared with us and a discussion is had. I can tell you that we are erring on the side of giving refunds back. This is a fluid situation as I have said. It is not a perfect situation by any means, but it's a start.

I agree that the Blowout guys are doing great work - they're identifying victims. What steps is Brent taking to identifying additional victims?

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Actually, Brent is unaware that I'm even posting here today. I don't have to provide a single iota of information to the people here -- Brent's issues are with the government first and foremost. I'm posting because I think it's the right thing to do and I'd like to clean up as much of this mess as possible and provide some clarity. I've helped the feds on any number of hobby fraud cases and will continue to do so. I've successfully sued Mastro and Allen and collected hundreds of thousands of dollars from them and their co-conspirators whereas the government collected $0 in restitution from them. I'm hardly coming on here and spinning some bullshit to help Brent out.

Jeff, I for one am glad that Brent got a lawyer that knows the baseball card hobby. You are in a unique position to really help get this done right. Or at least as right as it's going to get. I hope you'll keep posting to let us all know what's going on, and I know you are trying to help out the collectors as much as possible.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I guess (not that Jeff can be expected to answer) my big question is whether or not PWCC is still trying to portray themselves as innocent victims of the card doctoring "community" or are they being upfront about the fact that they were in cahoots with them.

[Johnny630]

Something Positive to Post....I'm thankful and blessed to be a member of this board :-)
Thanks to Jeff...BO...Peter and many others whom post on here with substantive beneficial information to the benefit of all :-)

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

I am a tax guy. Lets say someone brings in their paperwork/records to get their taxes done. It is my job to get it right - by the law. If what the client brings me looks suspect or fraudulent, I explain to the client the situation, why I think it may not be correct, the ramifications, and offer to help get it right ... or show them the door. There is no leeway. The IRS can fine me, even revoke my license, if found I fraudulently did a return.

That said, the analogy is PSA is me, the preparer. If PSA lets loose a fraudulent card, they are to blame. They are the professionals who do this for a living. There should be legal consequence for PSA. PSA should be held more accountable than any other entity in this whole mess.

Right or wrong - my 2 cents.

Completely agree, and it's been going on since their inception.

Hopefully the Government will view it this way as well.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Completely agree, and it's been going on since their inception.

Hopefully the Government will view it this way as well.

I second in full %100 agreement

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I guess (not that Jeff can be expected to answer) my big question is whether or not PWCC is still trying to portray themselves as innocent victims of the card doctoring "community" or are they being upfront about the fact that they were in cahoots with them.

It should be obvious based on my posts what our position is I'd hope.

Originally Posted by drcy

Though it is kind of funny if Brent said "Uh oh. I'm in such big trouble that I'd better get El Chapo's lawyer."

Though, obviously, Jeffrey has knowledge of this particular hobby, which it seems is what one would want for a lawyer on either side. You don't want to hire a lawyer who collects beanie babies or funky earrings-- totally different law. I'm sure Brent has also gone into this knowing that Jeffrey is a dog person ("Betsy, we can't chance it. Hide the cat! Oh, shoot, the closet's full. Call it Fido and maybe he won't notice.")

I recently befriended a neighborhood cat named Hobo and am pretty into him. We meet at night and in the morning during dog walks.

And as you guessed, I'm not exactly in need of baseball hobby cases with the stuff I'm doing now. But I'd rather deal with this stuff from the inside than to be on the outside, screaming my head off and not accomplishing anything.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

PSA is worse than useless. Greedy, arrogant and inept are the politer terms I can use to describe them. But there are too many people with too much money at risk for PSA to be put out of business by anything short of a criminal conviction, and they know it, so they will never step up and do the right thing for the consumers who relied on their skills and guarantee because they don't have to. They're the Juggernaut, bitches!



I think I'll pass on the PSA slabs next week...sure gonna make my carry-on lighter going home from the show.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by drcy

Though it is kind of funny if Brent said "Uh oh. I'm in such big trouble that I'd better get El Chapo's lawyer."

Though, obviously, Jeffrey has knowledge of this particular hobby, which it seems is what one would want for a lawyer on either side. You don't want to hire a lawyer who collects beanie babies or funky earrings-- totally different law. I'm sure Brent has also gone into this knowing that Jeffrey is a dog person ("Betsy, we can't chance it. Hide the cat! Oh, shoot, the closet's full. Call it Fido and maybe he won't notice.")

That is funny. We actually did that about 30 years ago. A friend had to stay with his brother for a while. The brother hated cats so we called the cat Spot and trained him to fetch.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I recently befriended a neighborhood cat named Hobo and am pretty into him. We meet at night and in the morning during dog walks.

I'm a dog person, but pet cats I meet on my walk home. Stay away from the raccoons.

[Beastmode]

Reading between the lines here Jeff, looks like a wedge is forthcoming between PSA and PWCC, with you being the hammer. Can we assume that PSA's warranty is worth sh**, or they told PWCC to pound sand since PWCC is now refunding buyers?

I would think part of your long term strategy is eventually recovering funds from the source of encapsulating altered cards, PSA.

[Johnny630]

What is going on at NEWPORT BEACH ?

THEIR SILENCE IS DEAFENING :-(

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It should be obvious based on my posts what our position is I'd hope.

My question wasn't about YOUR position. I also didn't expect an answer from you simply because of attorney client privilege, not because I thought you'd be evasive.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

Reading between the lines here Jeff, looks like a wedge is forthcoming between PSA and PWCC, with you being the hammer. Can we assume that PSA's warranty is worth sh**, or they told PWCC to pound sand since PWCC is now refunding buyers?

I would think part of your long term strategy is eventually recovering funds from the source of encapsulating altered cards, PSA.

Not that I am exactly in love with PSA in this scenario, but I do understand where they're coming from. PWCC and the card doctors set out to get one over on them, so they are forcing them to deal with it. I certainly don't think they should in turn be making the bad actors whole.

That being said my big problem with PSA is that they've done nothing but obfuscate and make non-statements. I wish that they'd come out and say, we were fooled by bad actors, we screwed up and we're working to identify and eliminate from the hobby the people that have undermined the hobby's confidence in general and in us specifically. We will also work to correct our internal issues which led to our part in allowing this to happen when it is anathema to our purpose as a company and a leader in the hobby.

OK getting off my soap box for now.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Not that I am exactly in love with PSA in this scenario, but I do understand where they're coming from. PWCC and the card doctors set out to get one over on them, so they are forcing them to deal with it. I certainly don't think they should in turn be making the bad actors whole.

That being said my big problem with PSA is that they've done nothing but obfuscate and make non-statements. I wish that they'd come out and say, we were fooled by bad actors, we screwed up and we're working to identify and eliminate from the hobby the people that have undermined the hobby's confidence in general and in us specifically. We will also work to correct our internal issues which led to our part in allowing this to happen when it is anathema to our purpose as a company and a leader in the hobby.

OK getting off my soap box for now.

Scott, your last paragraph, I'm in complete agreement with....its more then reasonable to want this to happen.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I agree that the Blowout guys are doing great work - they're identifying victims. What steps is Brent taking to identifying additional victims?

If PWCC just released the complete list to the public of all Moser related cards that have gone through their auction house it would save the Blowout guys and all the buyers of these cards a whole lot of time and trouble. Is every buyer of every card in the history of PWCC auctions supposed to go over every card they ever purchased and try and do research to determine if they were defrauded??? That's ridiculous.

[Wite3]

Thanks Jeff for the info.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

the Blowout guys who did incredible work here,

I agree with this.

My only comments to this thread are:

Thank you Blowout! Please keep up the great work. It is making a difference. The collecting community appreciates your efforts. Go BODA!

Jeff, please do your best to do good.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Something Positive to Post....I'm thankful and blessed to be a member of this board :-)
Thanks to Jeff...BO...Peter and many others whom post on here with substantive beneficial information to the benefit of all :-)

Completely agree with this, thanks to everyone and the hours of hard work.

I have nothing to do with anything involving the law so take that into consideration. My concern is that PWCC gets to come out of this virtually unscathed.

Lie, cheat and steal your way to a couple million dollars profit - get caught - lie and steal some more - hear the Feds at the door - realize the "errors of your ways" - donate/refund a very small percentage of your profit (I'm sure on the advice of counsel) - get to play the hero/ martyr of the collecting community- take a year off - repeat

I certainly applaud Jeff's efforts towards restitution for the victims but I can't see how this dissuades anyone from trying something like this in the future.

Someone needs to be made an example of or we'll see another scandal every few years. While PSA has more than their share of blame, it feels to me that Brentsie was the ringleader. You shouldn't get off with a "whoops, my bad. Here's some of the money back that I stole. Sure the whole scheme ran through me but let me tell you about all the other bad eggs"

ETA - my name Sc0tt C1int0n

[OldOriole]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Jeff, please do your best to do good.

Amen.

[SMPEP]

Jeff - I've never met you. And I do believe you are trying to do the right thing.

But the question I raise to you - is that even possible?

Is there anyone connected to this hobby that can truly be an honest arbiter?

Every card taken out of circulation by the FBI - makes other cards more valuable. Are those in your collection? Or the collections of friends of yours?

Every owner of high end cards has an interest in the outcome. Some gain by preserving the status quo. Some gain from the destroying the status quo.

So all an FBI investigation can do at this point is shuffling the winners and losers.

The only guaranteed loser is the history of the hobby - as cards are taken out of circulation. And while some cards can easily be removed from the hobby with minimal impact, some of these cards are truly scarce to begin with and valuable regardless or doctoring. Taking them out of the hobby just makes the hobby poorer and the owners of the unremoved cards richer.

The approach you are describing throws the baby and the bathwater out. And the real loser is the hobby.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Hard to stomach the irony of it all... This case will decide whether Brent's vision of "conservation" is deemed acceptable, and has the potential to adversely change the entire hobby as we know it. Yet it is one of us collectors who is leading this charge!

And he was the most vocal of anyone here when it came time to condemn Mastro/Allen for the same exact things that PWCC is doing (shilling, altering, trimming, deceiving, etc.)

Perhaps he will proudly wear this feather in his cap when PWCC is exonerated, and Brent's Tenets inevitably become the hobby norm.

This is beyond depressing, and further demonstrates that it truly is only about money.

He'll always be little Brenty Mastro to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

If PWCC just released the complete list to the public of all Moser related cards that have gone through their auction house it would save the Blowout guys and all the buyers of these cards a whole lot of time and trouble. Is every buyer of every card in the history of PWCC auctions supposed to go over every card they ever purchased and try and do research to determine if they were defrauded??? That's ridiculous.

I am quite sure it isn't just Gary. One piece of the puzzle only.

[drcy]

No fan of PSA and wouldn't mind seeing it go down due to their being unable to do their job. However, I understand and appreciate their sentiment that the card doctors and their knowing facilitators be the ones to take the financial punishment. They would be the criminals not PSA.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I hate to do anything that might stop endless speculation and attacks, but I figured I should post anyway. Yes, I'm representing Brent in this investigation and yes, this is after I bashed him for years on Net 54. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm representing him because every person deserves assistance of counsel in all criminal cases and investigations as guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, even though they do. No, I'm not doing it for the money (my baseball card hobby-related income is about 1% of my total income over the last ten years).

I have represented dozens of people in the hobby, some civilly and some in connection with criminal cases and investigations. I represented numerous witnesses against Mastro and Allen, et al. and against others accused of fraud. In each and every representation I have cooperated the client with FBI, helped them in their prosecutions against others and assisted them in non-public ways. Since I began representing Brent, he has been cooperating with the FBI, has reached out to people who purchased altered cards from PWCC and refunded money, and is providing all documentation from his dealings with any and all hobby dealers/consignors. Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI. In addition, Brent (and other dealers) have agreed to put money into a restitution fund to refund money to people who purchased altered cards years ago, well past the statute of limitations time period, even though they are not required to do so by law. As a collector, I am less concerned with why clients decide to assist the government than with the actual impact of their cooperation. And yes, I have represented people who have cooperated with the government in connection with the hobby and still have gone to prison.

If anyone doubts that what I am doing with Brent and other hobbyists who I have represented is a net positive, I'd invite you to call the FBI agent who has run all of these cases and investigations and ask him if he is happy that I am representing Brent. And if it's good enough for the FBI agent who is helping to prosecute these cases, I'd hope that it would be good enough for you. If not, it won't be the first time someone was unhappy with who I am representing. But helping to put Mastro et al. in jail didn't accomplish enough to stop fraud and make fraud victims whole; in this way, at least something positive is being done.

WOW, just wow. Kinda like a hard kick right to the nards.

I respect what you are trying to do. I really wish you were on the other side of history because what your client has done for 15 years is just shameful.

You have railed against what he has done, because you know, you know. This isn't just something that happened ooooooppppps ie. This was a methodical crime for 15 years of doctoring cards and identifying which ones would be better for their criminal activity, rinse and repeat. That's the grossness of it all. Just a complete dick with a complete disrespect for the law, your client Brent Mastro

I wish you were on the side of the collector instead mr. get rich quick schemer Brent Mastro. That's all he is my handsome friend, common criminal. Nothing special. So, good luck to you in your endeavors. To Brent Mastro, not so much.

[Johnny630]

We will see a pull back correction from the recent outrageous prices of the last 4 years ? We’re those numbers even real ? Will anyone lose confidence in PSA graded cards ? All questions I ponder wondering if many people think the same.

P.T Barnum said it best, “There’s a sucker born every min”

The collector, as a whole, has swallowed the bait hook line and sinker.
This will be evident from the Newport Beach lines at the National.

PSA AH’s And Dealers a like have made millions off this whole ordeal........... most hardcore collectors know the issues and still buy, still submit, still try again and again for bumps, still consign....ect. I hope things get better........

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I think that's the concern of a LOT of us.

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Completely agree with this, thanks to everyone and the hours of hard work.

I have nothing to do with anything involving the law so take that into consideration. My concern is that PWCC gets to come out of this virtually unscathed.

Lie, cheat and steal your way to a couple million dollars profit - get caught - lie and steal some more - hear the Feds at the door - realize the "errors of your ways" - donate/refund a very small percentage of your profit (I'm sure on the advice of counsel) - get to play the hero/ martyr of the collecting community- take a year off - repeat

I certainly applaud Jeff's efforts towards restitution for the victims but I can't see how this dissuades anyone from trying something like this in the future.

Someone needs to be made an example of or we'll see another scandal every few years. While PSA has more than their share of blame, it feels to me that Brentsie was the ringleader. You shouldn't get off with a "whoops, my bad. Here's some of the money back that I stole. Sure the whole scheme ran through me but let me tell you about all the other bad eggs"

ETA - my name Sc0tt C1int0n

[Tndbitler]

I love the info that jeffrey has provided. He basically told us Brent will not be going to jail and that we should be happy and grateful that PWCC is refunding obvious trimmed and altered cards and those with only "MINOR" alterations are going on the back burner. I must say. You are representing your client well. Just seems a little self serving to me. Thank You BLOWOUT for your great work. at least you didn't sell your soul or integrity to represent a crook.

[calvindog]

Good third post without your name listed.

Good understanding of how the Sixth Amendment works.

And good reading comprehension skills — you’re able to read things that have never been said or written.

[slidekellyslide]

Absolutely freaking brilliant move by Brent and Betsy. Silence the criticism coming from your biggest critic by hiring him. LOL. Mastro and Allen really blew that one.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Every card that an 'outed' dealer/consignor has provided to PWCC is not a bad card. Some cards were cracked out and resubmitted; some had a corner pressed down. Not every card in a submission is bad when there is 1, 2 or even 10 bad ones in a submission.

No doubt what you've said is true. However, this whole process speeds up exponentially if just the information around the submissions is shared in some manner. Start with the entire suspect population, break it down from there (a lot of that work is probably already done, but I doubt it's complete).

Appreciate what you're doing, but if there isn't going to be real transparency in this cleaning up then we aren't that much further along. "Trust me" aren't words most of the community is going to be satisfied with. "Show us" would go much further.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brent has been selling cards for Gary since at least the late 2000s and I believe it was earlier than that. I imagine most of those cards are no longer with the original purchasers out of prewarcardcollector/PWCC and cannot be traced. And as stated, Gary is just one piece of the PWCC puzzle. Obviously whatever can be done to get these cards off the market is better than nothing, but the ability to rectify decades of fraud is quite limited.

[bounce]

Peter - agree with you, but why can’t we just start with what we know already and go from there?

There is a big piece of this that is a pretty simple reconciliation project if some minimal information would be shared. But so far, even those who are supposedly cooperating aren’t really sharing.

Maybe the FBI is doing the work? How anyone who hasn’t already been contacted directly for refund would know that I’m not sure.

So far, it’s all still happening in the background with a bunch of trust me’s and be patient. This thing has had pretty public legs for months now, if they’d just share a little more info on what we already know most of those cards could be mopped up in a few days.

The older stuff, agree much more difficult. The recent stuff, it’s really not that hard of anyone really wanted to get it done.