1960 Fleer Set

[theshleps]

Finally finished all possible in 1960 fleer set (all PSA slabbed- for what it is worth) with the Baker below. Still need Melillo, the Sisler/Traynor signed by both and the Cobb/Wheat/Baker signed by at least 2 of them. Willing to overpay1960 Fleer #41 Baker PSA.jpg

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Ouch.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by theshleps

Finally finished all possible in 1960 fleer set (all PSA slabbed- for what it is worth) with the Baker below. Still need Melillo, the Sisler/Traynor signed by both and the Cobb/Wheat/Baker signed by at least 2 of them. Willing to overpayAttachment 613356

Congratulations! I was watching all of those 1960 Fleers last week. I have mainly been focusing on 1961 (have 72 of 96 possible) and 1963 (65 of 66) I only had 16 out of 43 possible for 1960, but there were so many cards in those auctions that I have never seen before and will probably never see again, I had to make a run at a few. I was focusing on Paul Waner and Pie Traynor and managed to only get the Traynor. It's a bit ugly with some staining and the signature in red ink, but it isn't like they are all that many floating around, so I am pretty happy to have won it.

I have to ask how you got yours so quickly? Mine just left the authentication process yesterday.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by theshleps

Finally finished all possible in 1960 fleer set (all PSA slabbed- for what it is worth) with the Baker below. Still need Melillo, the Sisler/Traynor signed by both and the Cobb/Wheat/Baker signed by at least 2 of them. Willing to overpay

What an accomplishment, congratulations! Are those cards you're looking for considered near-impossible enough to be outside the realm of possibility?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

With all due respect, I don't understand how this card made it into a slab unless it was some sort of internal paperwork snafu at PSA. If it wasn't, and it truly passed someone's muster at some point, I'd be incredibly shocked.

This card strongly reminds of a bunch of awful "signed" Fleer & Golden Press cards that hit eBay 20-25 years ago. All with that thick, flat calligraphy fountain pen nib. I'd share examples if I had saved any, but they were all so terrible that I didn't deem it necessary to retain scans. But frankly, even without being reminded of something else, my opinion would remain unchanged.

I hate to be the person to rain on the parade, so my apologies. And of course, my opinion only.

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Congratulations! I was watching all of those 1960 Fleers last week. I have mainly been focusing on 1961 (have 72 of 96 possible) and 1963 (65 of 66) I only had 16 out of 43 possible for 1960, but there were so many cards in those auctions that I have never seen before and will probably never see again, I had to make a run at a few. I was focusing on Paul Waner and Pie Traynor and managed to only get the Traynor. It's a bit ugly with some staining and the signature in red ink, but it isn't like they are all that many floating around, so I am pretty happy to have won it.

I have to ask how you got yours so quickly? Mine just left the authentication process yesterday.

Not sure, I live in Hawaii. Some things take a month.

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

With all due respect, I don't understand how this card made it into a slab unless it was some sort of internal paperwork snafu at PSA. If it wasn't, and it truly passed someone's muster at some point, I'd be incredibly shocked.

This card strongly reminds of a bunch of awful "signed" Fleer & Diamond Press cards that hit eBay 20-25 years ago. All with that thick, flat calligraphy fountain pen nib. I'd share examples if I had saved any, but they were all so terrible that I didn't deem it necessary to retain scans. But frankly, even without being reminded of something else, my opinion would remain unchanged.

I hate to be the person to rain on the parade, so my apologies. And of course, my opinion only.

I was definitely hesitant on this one. I compared it with exemplers and I was inconclusive. With an older PSA sticker I'm not sure who would have approved it. I actually have 2 post stroke Bakers signed of this card and will probably keep one. I wanted the whole set to be PSA. PSA wont slab post stroke Bakers. If a better comes along I will probably try to replace it but I do think there is a decent possibility it is ok but definitely not sure

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

What an accomplishment, congratulations! Are those cards you're looking for considered near-impossible enough to be outside the realm of possibility?

Ive only seen Melillo once but he did have a year or two. Same with the Sisler Traynor. Never seen the Cobb/Baker/Wheat signed by all. I have one signed by Wheat and a post stroke Baker. Just always loved those sets.

[theshleps]

Opinion?
1960 Fleer #41 Baker JSA.jpg

[theshleps]

and how bout this. Opinions greatly appreciated
1960 Fleer #41 Baker JSA (2).jpg

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I have exponentially more confidence in both of those. Is there a reason the bottom one isn't in a slab? It appears like a casebook pre-stroke Baker to me, signed with all the confidence in the world. I'd love to know what we're not being told!

What we have to also keep in mind is the extremely narrow window wherein Baker could have signed this card with a healthy hand.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Another thing to always consider:

Flat calligraphy nib practically always = Coach's Corner-caliber forgery.

Go back and look at your dyed-in-the-wool authentic vintage fountain pen pieces. Heck, you can do it from memory. How many of them were signed using such an implement? My guess is none.

This type of fountain pen simply was not in popular use back then. For fun, let's pick a name from the fountain pen era who signed everything put in front of him. Say, Charlie Gehringer. OK, now how many examples have you encountered that were signed with a flathead calligraphy nib? For me, it has to be zero, and the number of fountain pen signatures I've handled, studied or examined has to total hundreds of thousands.

Those types of pens were always the cheapest and most readily available to find in the 80's and 90's at stationery shops. Usually in a calligraphy kit. As a rule of thumb, forgers are cheap. These pens were cheap. 1 + 1 = 2.

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Another thing to always consider:

Flat calligraphy nib practically always = Coach's Corner-caliber forgery.

Go back and look at your dyed-in-the-wool authentic vintage fountain pen pieces. Heck, you can do it from memory. How many of them were signed using such an implement? My guess is none.

This type of fountain pen simply was not in popular use back then. For fun, let's pick a name from the fountain pen era who signed everything put in front of him. Say, Charlie Gehringer. OK, now how many examples have you encountered that were signed with a flathead calligraphy nib? For me, it has to be zero, and the number of fountain pen signatures I've handled, studied or examined has to total hundreds of thousands.

Those types of pens were always the cheapest and most readily available to find in the 80's and 90's at stationery shops. Usually in a calligraphy kit. As a rule of thumb, forgers are cheap. These pens were cheap. 1 + 1 = 2.

Thanks Billy- I appreciate your expertise. The PSA slabbed Baker I look at as being a felt tip pen (maybe I am wrong). Those were introduced in 1955 according to google. I remember writing to guys in the late 1960s and I do believe some signed with that type pen. My memory could be faulty. Maybe others could chime in

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

While I don't have it in hand like you do, I did access clearer pics from the auction listing. Again, just based on the photos, I'll stick with flat-tip calligraphy fountain pen.

Sharpies were introduced in 1964. Yes, there were some sort of felt tips that pre-dated the Sharpie, but you practically never see anything signed with them. I know I've seen a couple, but that's literally it. Can't even recall who signed, but want to say they were Hollywood autographs. I assuredly would have retained scans, though, due to those pieces being a very interesting piece of this puzzle we all love.

We are getting a bit off course here, but there has been a lot of collector discussion as to when the blue Sharpie was introduced (or any non-black). There were various coloured felt tip markers going back to the early 60's. I've seen a Branch Rickey (D. 1965) in blue felt tip. If it wasn't actual Sharpie brand, it mirrored the results. I was knocked off my feel when I saw it, just because it's one of those things you didn't expect to exist, yet there it was.

[tlake22]

The PSADNA slab is black felt tip. I have 20/60 site and I can even tell that.

[tlake22]

And from my view, I don't think any of the 3 are legit.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I checked the eBay photos again on a great monitor as oppsed to my phone. If two people (one of whom has it in his possession) say felt tip, then I have reason to reassess.

Honestly, without it in hand, I'm not committing to writing implement. The J. (whose formation is extremely atypical) has that watered-down appearance which is more in tune with fountain pen ink of some sort.

Regardless of any of this, I can't stand the autograph itself. It's ridicuously slow and deliberate, among other things. It has the sluggish appearance of somebody who is looking at a genuine exemplar while simulatneously attempting to duplicate the signature. When Baker was healthy, there was no slowness. The signature was executed with pure confidence, the same as anyone who signed their name countless times. And if it was indeed signed with some type of felt tip, that's even more occasion for me to have my guard up. As noted, Baker had a narrow window where he could have signed this while still healthy. The farther back you go in the 1960's, the less likely a felt tip would have been used.

[theshleps]

I have this too which seems like a prestroke 1961. Bill Corcoran OKed it in front of me. I forget if he asked keatings opinion too as he did for some of the tougher ones
1961 Fleer #6 Baker.JPG

[tlake22]

That one's good

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I have exponentially more confidence in both of those. Is there a reason the bottom one isn't in a slab? It appears like a casebook pre-stroke Baker to me, signed with all the confidence in the world. I'd love to know what we're not being told!

What we have to also keep in mind is the extremely narrow window wherein Baker could have signed this card with a healthy hand.

Billy I realized I never answered you. Sorry. Both those unslabbed ones have full JSA. I'm going to pt the shakier on for sale. If anyone here isn't interested it will go to REA