Should we maintain a list of suspicious buyers and sellers?

[the 'stache]

I stumbled across a blog last night called "For the Love of Cards", and under the links section, one of the destinations was listed as "t206museum.com is a fraud". I found this surprising, as the few times I had visited the site, it appeared on the surface to be quite helpful. Naturally my curiosity was piqued, so I Googled the site name to see what discussions might have occurred on our forum. Without going into great detail, as longtime members of Net54 already know this, the owner of the site was exposed trying to sell previously undiscovered variations of T206 Old Mill backs that he himself completely fabricated. The sordid details can be found in a discussion I bumped last night, if anybody is interested.

I am not creating this discussion and poll to rehash the past, however. This is merely an example of a site that has been associated with criminal behavior. What I am proposing here is that we as a group become more proactive in documenting the names, user ids and websites of those unscrupulous persons who infect our hobby. I believe that knowledge is power, and collectively, we already make a difference by exposing unethical people within the hobby. A list simply makes these names more easily accessible.

One area I would like to address is Ebay, as I have seen several discussions lamenting the insufficiency of their feedback system. Since it is impossible to leave negative feedback on a buyer, honest sellers are precariously placed in harm's way. Unless a seller delves deeply into the comments left for previous transactions, they cannot know if the person they are shipping to is trustworthy. A searchable list of problematic buyers, with a link to any discussion providing supporting documentation, would represent a big step forward. The user ids of buyers with excessive retractions, and a history of shill bidding, should be included as well. As for sellers, negative feedback, though indicative of a possible problem, is simply not always accurate. A buyer can leave negative feedback without even contacting a seller, whether it is warranted or not. It would be wise for us to keep a list of sellers that do not meet the level of honesty the hobby deserves.

In the "Joseph M. Pankiewicz" discussion, Pete Ullman made a comment that has stuck with me for much of the last week:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Maybe there should be a section in the archive on this site that discusses suspect sellers/auction houses. Maybe a timeline of hobby indescretions over the last decade up to present...naming names...so users of this message board will have such info to help with future transactions?

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....174608&page=30

The responses to his post were positive, yet I have not seen this idea acted upon yet. So I am going to build upon his idea, expanding it to Ebay users, auction houses, and suspicious websites. This would serve as a caveat emptor of sorts. The ultimate decision of who would appear on the list would be made by Leon or one of the other forum admins/moderators.

So, I ask you, my fellow friends and hobby enthusiasts, if you feel this list would be beneficial?

[Mark]

I would expect more drama than information as the anger and libel flow along.

[the 'stache]

I could see that being a problem, Mark, but the list would basically be comprised of names that have already appeared in discussions. Just a quick reference of sorts.

[quinnsryche]

I think that's an excellent idea although who would have the final say as to which people make the list? Many people come on here to bitch about stuff and we only find out later the original poster is the problem. It would be rather difficult to police such things as there are always 2 sides to a story (and sometimes more it seems).
Rather interested to see the outcome of the poll.
Always enjoy your posts 'stache. Well thought out and well written.
Best,
Tony

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Mark

I would expect more drama than information as the anger and libel flow along.

Exactly.

[cyseymour]

I could see there being a baseball card version Yelp which reviews the different dealers and auction houses/other businesses. But for anyone who is not a business, it is treading on thin ice. People don't like to have their names out on the internet and it would be possible to make false allegations against anyone. Plus, if it were a list, who would have the authority to maintain such a list and decide who's on it? That would be a pretty powerful person... too much power, if you ask me.

So I think it's a bad idea... but a review website for the dealers/auction houses might be a good one for anyone who wants to take it up. Just leave collectors out of it... I think it has to be a registered business.

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Exactly.

+ 3

[Leon]

Great discussion and very well thought out opening post. The other mods and I always want to listen to new ideas to help the board and the hobby, where the board is concerned. That being said.....
I can't imagine me ever being convinced this would be a good thing for this site due to the liability issues, the management of the sections and the drama. Those are my initial concerns.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Leon

Great discussion and very well thought out opening post. The other mods and I always want to listen to new ideas to help the board and the hobby, where the board is concerned. That being said.....
I can't imagine me ever being convinced this would be a good thing for this site due to the liability issues, the management of the sections and the drama. Those are my initial concerns.

Leon,
Good post I to think some kind of list would help out as so many new members come on daily. But as we know where the fish swim the sharks are soon to follow. I think for now you sum it up well with what is written at the top of the B/S/T CAVEAT EMPTOR

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Mark

I would expect more drama than information as the anger and libel flow along.

The drama seems to be garnering the most attention as of late. And you're right that libel will follow suit. The simple solution , to me, is if you do not like how someone does business don't deal with them. That does not mean others have had the same experience.

[D.P.Johnson]

This type of forum could work with some rules such as:

1: Check with a STAFF member before posting any new threads about who might be a suspicious buyer/seller.

2: Make sure you can provide some type of PROOF.

3: If you don't follow rule #1, your account will be suspended for 30 days.

[Bestdj777]

In theory I think a list would be a great idea. In practice, maybe not so much. From what I've seen, Leon bans anyone problematic from the BST part of the forum, which prevents any need for a list there. And, on eBay, you can change your account name or open new accounts. So, identifying someone by name or email handle would not be a permanent means of alerting people to the problem.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

The drama seems to be garnering the most attention as of late. And you're right that libel will follow suit. The simple solution , to me, is if you do not like how someone does business don't deal with them. That does not mean others have had the same experience.

Lou, I understand your thoughts, as well as those expressed by Leon and other members. And I respect your position. But I don't think it would create any additional liability, or rancor. Remember, the list would be comprised of people that are already being discussed on the forum. If a forum member starts a topic on an Ebay buyer named John Q. Public because they backed out of a buy it now commitment, the specifics of what happened should be presented within the thread. Say Mr. Public bought a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth, and the next day our forum member a message that he has changed his mind, and doesn't want the card. The forum member would document this here, and open an unpaid item case. A message would then be sent to Leon, or another forum admin or moderator with the link to the discussion. If approved for inclusion on the list, Mr. Public's name and Ebay user ID would be added to the list. Since everything has been presented factually, there can be no libel accusation. No further comment would be made as the the Ebay buyer on the list. Just the facts. They would simply be listed for reference as a non payer on one auction. With their name and user id now in the searchable database, anybody on Net54 could check and see this user has at least this one time been problematic. If they choose to block the buyer, all future problems with said buyer have been averted.

Of course it is not a perfect solution, but the list would serve as a preemptive strike of sorts.

[RCMcKenzie]

I think it makes more sense to point out some dealers that someone new to the hobby can be comfortable buying from, like the list on http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/ebay...ay-sellers.asp

Even a positive list like that could make some folks upset that they are not on it.

After a while, collectors can make up their own minds about what to buy and where.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I think it makes more sense to point out some dealers that someone new to the hobby can be comfortable buying from, like the list on http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/ebay...ay-sellers.asp

Even a positive list like that could make some folks upset that they are not on it.

After a while, collectors can make up their own minds about what to buy and where.

That is a different, and viable approach. But you're right, RC, invariably, somebody is going to be left off, and feel slighted.

I don't know, guys and gals. I'm looking for something that we can do to make the hobby a little safer for everybody here. Maybe this isn't the best answer. Or, perhaps some variation of this idea will work if we focus on the positive instead of the negative. There's certainly no legal ramifications if a seller is left off a positive list.

I am reminded of Doug Goodman's response to my point about the apathy of the major players in the hobby (the tpgs, card manufacturers, Ebay, auction houses, etc)

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

It's the honest hobbyists who need to change their ways. The major players who you speak of have no reason to change, because to them the "hobby" matters less than their bottom line.

There's just got to be more that we can do. And I believe we can affect changes. Ultimately we are the ones that wield the power. It is our discretionary income that makes it possible for these large players to rest on their laurels.

[Bocabirdman]

Due diligence is the answer. Read a seller's feedback. Put a good eye on the scan. Ask questions here on the board. PM people you trust and respect for their opinions. Read the threads where people express their public opinions. This hobby is best enjoyed with a modicum of caution but everyone's experiences differ. Tolerances for card condition and acceptable shipping times vary. To list sellers, good or bad, is a short cut with glaring consequences. Who to include or omit would be a fulltime headache that the moderators here do not need. We are all adults. Transactions, positive and negative are bits of data to be learned from, first-hand. There is no instant, painless alternative to years or, hell, decades of time in this hobby. Newbies need to, "Step lightly but keep a steppin'. ".

I shall now step down from the soap box.

[D.P.Johnson]

Silence is the scammer's best friend; knowledge is the scammer's worst enemy.

[barrysloate]

I said yes to the list, but you do want to be really careful that you've got your facts straight before you post somebody's name.

[ullmandds]

I also said yes...with caution of course.

When I'm on call(I work for a group dental practice encompassing 25 someodd dental practices)...we keep a potential "drug seekers" list so we can be prepared for callers seeking narcotic Rx drugs. This has proven very effective in the past.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Due diligence is the answer. Read a seller's feedback. Put a good eye on the scan. Ask questions here on the board. PM people you trust and respect for their opinions. Read the threads where people express their public opinions. This hobby is best enjoyed with a modicum of caution but everyone's experiences differ. Tolerances for card condition and acceptable shipping times vary. To list sellers, good or bad, is a short cut with glaring consequences. Who to include or omit would be a fulltime headache that the moderators here do not need. We are all adults. Transactions, positive and negative are bits of data to be learned from, first-hand. There is no instant, painless alternative to years or, hell, decades of time in this hobby. Newbies need to, "Step lightly but keep a steppin'. ".

I shall now step down from the soap box.

While I agree with this, a lot of times these "scammer" buyers and sellers strike quickly. I'm dealing with several "scammer" buyers right now and would like to share that information with other sellers, but there's really no place for me to do that...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

While I agree with this, a lot of times these "scammer" buyers and sellers strike quickly. I'm dealing with several "scammer" buyers right now and would like to share that information with other sellers, but there's really no place for me to do that...

No place to do it? How about starting a thread? Warn all you want to.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I also said yes...with caution of course.

When I'm on call(I work for a group dental practice encompassing 25 someodd dental practices)...we keep a potential "drug seekers" list so we can be prepared for callers seeking narcotic Rx drugs. This has proven very effective in the past.

Pete,

But that is "your" drug seekers list used for "your" purposes. You don't post that list for public consumption and condemnation. In the hobby, we all have lists of sellers and/or buyers that we will or won't deal with based on past experiences, some of which the whole hobby might need to know about. How do you decide who's to be "scarlet lettered"? How do you repair the reputation of a person included erroneously? How do you answer a person who says, " I sent him the money because he WASN'T on the Net 54 SH*T LIST and got burned."?

[ullmandds]

good point, Mike!

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Leon

No place to do it? How about starting a thread? Warn all you want to.

Leon (and others),

I see what the OP is proposing as a viable option. I don't think he is talking about a place for discussion of scammers, etc, but a place to list those already discussed. What I see as viable is a list of possible people to deal with caution, with a slight summary and a reference back to the vetting thread.

Using the Panky thread as an example. This were was a long discussion on this, but the "list" would contain a reference back to the original thread with (possibly) a brief summary. With the thread reference in place, should Panky change his ebay ID (for example), that can be detailed in the original thread and would be easy to locate and update, if the reference was handy in the list. I don't see the list containing any real discussion at all.

Not sure if this is exactly what the OP was intending, but I could see this working without an increased risk of liability. We could even provide the ability for the entity to respond, either in their own thread (which would be added as a referenced thread on the list), or their response could be inline with the original referenced thread.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

No place to do it? How about starting a thread? Warn all you want to.

Oh, ok...I didn't realize there was a section on this board where I could do that. I've looked around before but couldn't find it. I'll look again. Thanks...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Oh, ok...I didn't realize there was a section on this board where I could do that. I've looked around before but couldn't find it. I'll look again. Thanks...

It is this front page. Don't look too far. See BBG thread if you are unaware of where?

[rainier2004]

The list would be a nice reference, but Id rather have a list of good sellers as previously mentioned...if someone gets left out then no biggie b/c eventually they'll make the list. It would serve as nice reminder of the good people in the hobby.

Leon monitors the hell outta the BST, he also provides reference checks extremely quickly and promotes further checks. If those weren't all in place then the list idea would be better, but I just don't think we need it here. I just bought a card from a member and feel comfortable enough to ask him to hold it for 3 week while we are on vacation...crap happens, but reference checks on Leons BST seems to eliminate that.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

It is this front page. Don't look too far. See BBG thread if you are unaware of where?

Outstanding! Thank you!

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Lou, I understand your thoughts, as well as those expressed by Leon and other members. And I respect your position. But I don't think it would create any additional liability, or rancor. Remember, the list would be comprised of people that are already being discussed on the forum. If a forum member starts a topic on an Ebay buyer named John Q. Public because they backed out of a buy it now commitment, the specifics of what happened should be presented within the thread. Say Mr. Public bought a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth, and the next day our forum member a message that he has changed his mind, and doesn't want the card. The forum member would document this here, and open an unpaid item case. A message would then be sent to Leon, or another forum admin or moderator with the link to the discussion. If approved for inclusion on the list, Mr. Public's name and Ebay user ID would be added to the list. Since everything has been presented factually, there can be no libel accusation. No further comment would be made as the the Ebay buyer on the list. Just the facts. They would simply be listed for reference as a non payer on one auction. With their name and user id now in the searchable database, anybody on Net54 could check and see this user has at least this one time been problematic. If they choose to block the buyer, all future problems with said buyer have been averted.

Of course it is not a perfect solution, but the list would serve as a preemptive strike of sorts.

Uh...seriously? I have been an eBay seller for about 14 years now. People back out of transactions, never pay and send rude and even threatening messages. A couple of times people have claimed to have never received cards when I knew for a fact they had. Ask anyone who runs even a small operation - it's all part of the cost of doing business. You open your unpaid item case, block bidder, recoup your fees, relist and move on.

Is it frustrating and annoying? Absolutely. Is it worth making a federal case out of it and creating a public thread to malign someone over $50? No. The truth is you don't know what the other person's situation is or what is going on in their life. I think the Adrian threads were a pretty good example of this, even though some of his dealings were definitely questionable.

Plus I am sure Leon and other mods have better things to do than babysit hundreds of he-said/she-said discussions all day long over minor spoiled ebay transactions.

Now if it's a big scam, at an institutional level (i.e. auction house/grading companies) or affecting hundreds of buyers, by all means out the scam. That's where this board really rocks.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Uh...seriously? I have been an eBay seller for about 14 years now. People back out of transactions, never pay and send rude and even threatening messages. A couple of times people have claimed to have never received cards when I knew for a fact they had. Ask anyone who runs even a small operation - it's all part of the cost of doing business. You open your unpaid item case, block bidder, recoup your fees, relist and move on.

Is it frustrating and annoying? Absolutely. Is it worth making a federal case out of it and creating a public thread to malign someone over $50? No. The truth is you don't know what the other person's situation is or what is going on in their life. I think the Adrian threads were a pretty good example of this, even though some of his dealings were definitely questionable.

Plus I am sure Leon and other mods have better things to do than babysit hundreds of he-said/she-said discussions all day long over minor spoiled ebay transactions.

Now if it's a big scam, at an institutional level (i.e. auction house/grading companies) or affecting hundreds of buyers, by all means out the scam. That's where this board really rocks.

I agree with Rob 100%

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

I agree with Rob 100%

\

Me too.

[cyseymour]

I think we need fewer witch-hunts and more focus on collecting. I know it is kind of a slow period of time where not many cards are up for auction, plus the playoffs haven't started yet. So there isn't much focus on cards or on baseball right now, it seems. Most of the popular threads have been on potential scammers and people who have already been thrown off the message board for bad behavior. Some of the recent accusations don't have much substance to them and seem to be a considerable amount of conjecture. But even if proven true, eventually, it gets tiresome. There's no reason to be involved in a hobby if your main focus is simply the greed and dishonesty displayed by some. But 95% of the folks out there are straight dealers. They deserve as much of our attention, if not moreso. Not to say that the big scams like Mastro don't deserve attention, or if people are getting ripped off really badly. But otherwise, let's try to stay positive and not obsess about it. Just my perspective.

[Prof_Plum]

I voted "yes" in the poll but only because I wouldn't be the one having to deal with any issues that arise out of it. Of which, there would probably be plenty.

As I'm sure others do, I have a "saved sellers" list on ebay and add any names that come up from discussions here. It's up to 19 questionable sellers right now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stuff trumps all. The tiny percentage of people who will take a stand and not buy from people whose fraud has been outed won't make a difference, in my humble opinion. The problem can only be solved -- if at all -- by law enforcement. If the most sophisticated financial crimes can be successfully prosecuted one would think a bunch of clowns trimming and sanding baseball cards wouldn't be that hard. Here's hoping that is true anyhow.

[ullmandds]

These "witch-hunts" have been warranted and justified. They're not being done out of boredom from what I have seen. I believe the cheaters...liars...crooks...and thieves need to be kept on the run...whether anything gets done to solve the problem or not...they just can't keep getting away with this!

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

These "witch-hunts" have been warranted and justified. They're not being done out of boredom from what I have seen. I believe the cheaters...liars...crooks...and thieves need to be kept on the run...whether anything gets done to solve the problem or not...they just can't keep getting away with this!

Yeah but we can't just forever be police officers... we need to enjoy the hobby as well, or what is the point? The last few threads I have seen... we had the thread on Adrian, who has already been banned from the boards. The thread on Joseph P. may have been warranted, but other than buying cards and cracking them out and having them regraded, what else was there... I didn't see any evidence of doctoring and all that they really had on him were some low bids on his own card. That's not a good thing, really, but other than that, there was the thread on Bubble Bath Girl that seemed unwarranted as everyone rushed to his defense. Just saying that lately we've had a lot of threads with people reaming each other out with little evidence of wrongdoing. Not saying that it is bad to expose liars and cheaters, just making the point that it can get tiresome and they will always be there. You can think you've gotten everybody but then the next ebay scam will just appear with some re-sealed wax pack or something. Yawn.

[Tao_Moko]

I come on here to see cards and learn about the hobby and baseball but somehow lack the discipline to avoid these threads. "Caveat Emptor" is all that is needed for me. I think the forum gets bogged down by posts not directly related to the cards. Sometimes they are warranted but many times they are unnecessary and why I have stepped away some and even left the hobby in the past. I would have to say " no" to the witch hunt.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

The thread on Joseph P. may have been warranted, but other than buying cards and cracking them out and having them regraded, what else was there...

Serisously? Did you miss the whole part of him shilling many, many of his own auctions?

[botn]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

The thread on Joseph P. may have been warranted, but other than buying cards and cracking them out and having them regraded, what else was there... I didn't see any evidence of doctoring and all that they really had on him were some low bids on his own card.

This is a joke, right? The cards that were shown in that thread were perfect examples of cards which had been doctored. Are we looking at the same pictures?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by botn

This is a joke, right? The cards that were shown in that thread were perfect examples of cards which had been doctored. Are we looking at the same pictures?

Those are just minor details

[tschock]

Similar to "collect what you enjoy". Read what you want. It's obvious from most thread titles what the thread will be about. To grouse about reading too many of these types of threads leads to the obvious question.

I also find it curious that some of same people that seem to imply there is nothing that can be done (since the scammers will always be there or find another way to scam) are the same ones who say we should do nothing. I guess it make's an easy justification for doing just that.

[nsaddict]

I am on the fence on this topic, and the voting is somewhat close too. There have been several postings on the issue that was worthy to reveal, such as the legendary Pank. And others that were a joke such as the link below. The OP almost had a mental breakdown calling the dealer every name in the book over a 3.00 card that had a 14 day return policy???

http://tinyurl.com/kqhh3u7

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by tschock

Similar to "collect what you enjoy". Read what you want. It's obvious from most thread titles what the thread will be about. To grouse about reading too many of these types of threads leads to the obvious question.

I also find it curious that some of same people that seem to imply there is nothing that can be done (since the scammers will always be there or find another way to scam) are the same ones who say we should do nothing. I guess it make's an easy justification for doing just that.

Absolutely.
I don't need a seperate list of suspect buyers and sellers; I can figure out who I don't want to do business with just by reading this thread...

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Serisously? Did you miss the whole part of him shilling many, many of his own auctions?

Honestly, I didn't look at it too closely, just skimmed it a bit. So if I mischaracterized it then I apologize. I only said it might have been warranted as opposed to fully warranted because I don't want to indict the guy myself. Don't want to get involved. But it is not your thread I am objecting to, just a larger tone of the mb since then where some threads have involved hashing up old garbage or other mudslinging.

[KCRfan1]

Creating a " Black List " is not the answer. I'll go back to my original post and say do business with who you are comfortable with, and don't deal with those whose business practice you do not like. This is very simple and not complicated. ( read ebay feedback for example )There is enough information for all of us to form our own opinions w/o the use of a list, be it comprised of " good " sellers and buyers or " bad " sellers and buyers. These lists always turn into question marks as there will be ones who wrongly end up on said list. Scammers will always scam and we know this. If we do our research we, and others, can buy and sell with confidence.

[E93]

A feedback system on the BST would be nice.
JimB

[Luke]

but I voted No because if we asked for this to be implemented, we'd be asking the mods to wade through all of the drama posts, and make a ruling about a person, while sticking their neck out legally. Not something I think we should ask them to do.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by E93

A feedback system on the BST would be nice.
JimB

Best idea so far.

[oldjudge]

Suspicious to who?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Best idea so far.

If it just took flipping a few buttons it would be done. I would like to have that kind of system too but I think it will require an upgrade of s/w.....to a newer version..Which is something I haven't wanted to tackle. I have yet to ever have anyone email me for a reference and at the end of the whole thing they didn't do a deal because of not being able to vette out the seller. Again, I would like a feedback system too. Maybe one will be in the future...