Thought experiment: You have $25,000 what to do.

[fkm_bky]

I would go with a Lower grade green Cobb portrait (2-3) and probably a similarly graded 33 Ruth for the first $25k. The second $25k I’d spend on a 1921 Ruth in whatever condition I could get or a solid looking early 30’s Gehrig and a caramel Wagner.

Bill

[here2havefun]

Late 90's Griffey. 1998 Essential Credentials in the first 3 months, then a 99 Star Rubies in the second 3 months.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I am curious why Ted Williams always gets left off the list of most important "vintage" ballplayers. Clemente/Jackie make sense from a cultural perspective, and obviously Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb and Wagner are pre-war titans. But, how is Ted Williams not part of the Aaron, Mays, Mantle level? It is not one or two omissions, he is consistently on a lower tier when I have seen folks listing the best player cards by era (whereas, he is almost always Top 10 by baseball analysts compiling "best of" lists). As someone newer to vintage collecting than many of the long-timers here, I am wondering why his performance is viewed as less significant than his contemporaries in the 40s-50s.

Just guessing, but if you look at the players you listed and Williams, the differences that stick out are that:

1) He did not play for a New York team.

2) He did not set, nor still holds, what many may consider as a significant all-time MLB record.

3) He was not the first/only one ever in MLB to set, achieve, or perform some significant mark, goal, or event.

He is the last player to hit .400, but he wasn't the first. He is the only player (that I know of) to literally miss almost 5 full seasons of MLB because of military service, which doesn't really count as a baseball related stat in people's minds. And yet, it is because of his military service that he likely missed out on setting, and still holding, some all-time MLB records. Had Williams not missed those 5 years for military service, and instead had 5 average Ted Williams years, he would very likely also be the current all-time MLB recordholder for RBIs and Runs Scored, and possibly for all-time Walks as well. And it probably would have boosted him, at least at some point in time, into the top 5/10 all-time category for some other batting records as well, including second all-time in HRs behind only Ruth, until Aaron would eventually pass him years later. And this is all in addition to the one all-time batting record he does hold for OBP. But for some reason fans don't seem to think of OBP as highly as they do RBIs, Runs Scored, and HRs. It is also possible he may have batted .400 for a season at least one more time as well, or who knows what else had he been able to play those 5 lost years. So, he does seem to get downplayed/forgotten a bit in relation to the other star players mentioned, and military service and not playing for a team in the right media market are likely big contributing factors as to why.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I am curious why Ted Williams always gets left off the list of most important "vintage" ballplayers. Clemente/Jackie make sense from a cultural perspective, and obviously Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb and Wagner are pre-war titans. But, how is Ted Williams not part of the Aaron, Mays, Mantle level? It is not one or two omissions, he is consistently on a lower tier when I have seen folks listing the best player cards by era (whereas, he is almost always Top 10 by baseball analysts compiling "best of" lists). As someone newer to vintage collecting than many of the long-timers here, I am wondering why his performance is viewed as less significant than his contemporaries in the 40s-50s.

I do agree Williams and DiMaggio don't get the respect in the hobby that they deserve. Maybe because they didn't have many cards issued during their playing days.

Picked this one up a while back. I think signed vintage also has plenty of room to grow if looking for an investment opportunity.

[Republicaninmass]

Signed vintage hof names, signed HOF rcs and signed HOF hopefuls.

When you see 5 or 6 of the same card offered in one auction, it has to make one think about the supply aspect. People are selling in droves, buying from an auction and selling 6 months later or sooner. Irrational exuberance and no sign of prudence or reliance on past sales.


For years, the 2 most plentiful sets in every auction were t206 and 33 goudeys by the truckload. Plus people always saved the "good players"

[spartakid8]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I am curious why Ted Williams always gets left off the list of most important "vintage" ballplayers. Clemente/Jackie make sense from a cultural perspective, and obviously Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb and Wagner are pre-war titans. But, how is Ted Williams not part of the Aaron, Mays, Mantle level? It is not one or two omissions, he is consistently on a lower tier when I have seen folks listing the best player cards by era (whereas, he is almost always Top 10 by baseball analysts compiling "best of" lists). As someone newer to vintage collecting than many of the long-timers here, I am wondering why his performance is viewed as less significant than his contemporaries in the 40s-50s.

I’m curious to hear thoughts on this as well, I was surprised to see his play ball rookie not included on more lists

[egri]

Great card Jesse!

In addition to what others have said, Williams never won a championship, and other than a brief run in the late 1940s/early 1950s was stuck on second division teams his whole career. It wasn’t his fault; the Red Sox were terrible at developing pitchers (some things never change) but he still gets dinged for it.

[FrankWakefield]

Spread the money out, invest in a couple of ETF's that track lithium, VanEck's REMX for example, buy 100 shares of Williams Cos, WMB; buy stock in Occidental Petroleum OXY, Haliburton HAL, Apple AAPL, and Berkshire HathawayB BRK.B. After that, maybe a fellow should buy a few ungraded W514s and gather those before their value goes into low Earth orbit like other pre-war cards.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by spartakid8

I’m curious to hear thoughts on this as well, I was surprised to see his play ball rookie not included on more lists

The play ball seems to be a hot card. My two cents is that it seems that he has a lack of great cards issued in his early days. Side note: Ted and Joe D are high up on most people’s list of best players of all time but they may both suffer from being considered a bit surly. Neither seemed to have the charisma of a ruth or mantle. Could be way off here.

[Johnny630]

I ask myself these questions what player does a Brilliant say late 20’s Wall Street Hedge Fund Manager Type who loves making money but has never watched or played a sport yet wants to diversify, who will he know.

I always come back to Ruth and Jackie.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Well, you know me Phil; I'd take a different approach to spending $50K in six months than just about everyone else who has posted so far.

First I would finish my E98 set with the Cobb, Wagner and Young (and it would still pain me to spend Cy Young money on an Irv Young card!). Then I would buy all the big cards I need for my post war sets (Mantles that I'm missing, Ryan RC, Seaver RC, etc.). Then as many decent prewar cards as I could get that I think are cool (T206 Johnson portrait and Mathewson portrait; E-Unc Blue Caption Wagner; E90-1 Speaker; any of the Jersey City cards I still need and maybe upgrade a few of the ones I already have; Horizontal cards (1909 Obaks and E cards); etc.)

I'd amass a bunch of stuff that brings me joy instead of dropping it all on 3-5 cards that will go up in value in the future. I enjoy the cards more than the values. Many of the cards I mentioned are fairly expensive cards, but I could get a lot of them for $50K.

Anyway, that's my take on this experiment. Cool idea for a thread by the way. I'm enjoying reading everyone's responses.




.

[Wanaselja]

Cracker Jack Cobb and Jackson. These 2 cards are at the top of my fantasy want list and I will likely never own either. And they’ll probably do well long term as well.

[Gorditadogg]

Jokic and Messi. Put your focus on sports where the collector base is growing.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Smarti5051]

Not sure I agree with Jokic. Big men do not age well in the hobby. See Shaq and Duncan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I ask myself these questions what player does a Brilliant say late 20’s Wall Street Hedge Fund Manager Type who loves making money but has never watched or played a sport yet wants to diversify, who will he know.

I always come back to Ruth and Jackie.

I suspect guys like that are buying more basketball than baseball.

[benge610]

RE: "(and it would still pain me to spend Cy Young money on an Irv Young card!)"

Thank you Andy! Whether it is E98 or some others; my skin crawls when, all I see is Irv; regardless of what got printed on the nameplate below. That is a tough one to swallow; at least if it was a raw, circulated or A, 1 slabbed. But still.
Ben
"I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards."

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I am curious why Ted Williams always gets left off the list of most important "vintage" ballplayers...

While pondering the thought experiment, I put together a "top ten" list. There were three players on that list whom I did not include in my post above. Those three were Ted Williams, Christy Mathewson, and Honus Wagner.

In Williams' case, I left him off due to his lack of a World Series ring. He was a great player and an otherworldly hitter; however, Williams never got to the top of the mountain.

I have similar feelings regarding every perennial All-Star with barren fingers. There are posters who will likely attack this point of view and cite numerous reasons why "championships don't matter" in baseball. Ultimately, though, winning the World Series does matter...as it pertains to being an upper-echelon, top-tier player.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many World Series did Ty Cobb win?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many World Series did Ty Cobb win?

I believe the answer is zero. Cobb's occasionally deplorable behavior is also one of the reasons I left him off my list. I realize many collectors couldn't care less about either of those things. Villains have a certain appeal to some people. From a purely monetary point of view, it probably makes sense to pick up his cards. Still, my original list of seven will likely perform quite well...and I'd be thrilled with any of those.

[bbcard1]

Prewar: I would probably go with the nicest condition I could find of the generals...Johnson, Cobb, Ruth, Matty

Vintage 1951 B Mantle Rookie and a Leaf Jackie

Modern: it's hard not of love Juan Soto. He was the 6th youngest player on a major league roster this year. He also has 99 HRs, 486 hits, 375 walks and 338 runs scored already.

Long shot...pick up a few very high grade 1978 Glenn Burke cards.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by benge610

RE: "(and it would still pain me to spend Cy Young money on an Irv Young card!)"

Thank you Andy! Whether it is E98 or some others; my skin crawls when, all I see is Irv; regardless of what got printed on the nameplate below. That is a tough one to swallow; at least if it was a raw, circulated or A, 1 slabbed. But still.
Ben
"I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards."

Irv Young. The most painful part of putting together an E98 Master Set is having to do it 4 times...

[benge610]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Irv Young. The most painful part of putting together an E98 Master Set is having to do it 4 times...

lollllllll!
Lord help you!
Ben

[robw1959]

If I am free to purchase vintage cards, I would take a very sharp looking SGC or PSA 5 1933 Goudey Ruth card, and I would be open to any of the four issues from that set.

[tkd]

I would purchase playing days Ruth cards. Especially any 1922 American Caramel Ruth's. I would also like to get a 1917 Boston Store Hornsby. I feel all 1917 Hornsby cards are undervalued (Boston Store , Collins McCarthy etc)

[darwinbulldog]

I'd make a list of the 25 greatest players, cross out anyone who's named more than once in this thread, and buy up whoever is left over.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by tkd

I would purchase playing days Ruth cards. Especially any 1922 American Caramel Ruth's. I would also like to get a 1917 Boston Store Hornsby. I feel all 1917 Hornsby cards are undervalued (Boston Store , Collins McCarthy etc)

I just picked up an e121 ruth montage. This makes me feel better about it!!!!!

[LEHR]

I rarely buy cards anymore but if someone were to hand me a free and clear $50k to spend on the hobby right now it would go towards:

1. A new Graig Kreindler painting(s) (even if I had to wait years to get it). Or...
2. The nicest pre-1970 World Series player or coach ring I could find. Or...
3. As many quality Type 1 photo's or cabinets as I could find, with an emphasis on Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, N173's, W600's, Carl Horner photos, Charles Conlon photos, Louis Van Oeyen photos.

You may find better hot/trendy investments but I'll own things I love.

[HistoricNewspapers]

1922 Caramel Ruth's and Nielsen Chocolate.

I like the 1922 Caramel's better than the 1921 and the price gap is ridiculous from 1921 to 1922. The reason I like the 1922's better is because the 1921 is using an old recycled photo of the Babe. 1922 Caramel's and its Nielsen cousin show the Babe as he looked at that time and is one of the earliest to show an actual photo of Ruth as a Yankee on a card(not a drawing).


1947 Bond Jackie Robinson
1948 Swell Jackie Robinson

The 1949 Leaf is already in the stratosphere and is a great card, but these two cards issued before(and fare more scarce) than the Leaf are still underpriced relative to the overall hobby and to all of Jackie's cards. They will never catch the Leaf, but they are still ridiculous bargains in todays overall hobby prices.

[obcbobd]

I'm a collector, not an investor, but I'll play. Assuming I had $50k that must be used to purchase cards

In lower grade

33 Goudey Ruth #144
E121 Ruth Pitching, Burd, Montage
E220 Ruth

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

I'm a collector, not an investor, but I'll play. Assuming I had $50k that must be used to purchase cards

In lower grade

33 Goudey Ruth #144
E121 Ruth Pitching, Burd, Montage
E220 Ruth

I have not figured out your Theme

But I Like it

[UKCardGuy]

Great thread.

Like Bob, the E121 Ruth would be on my list.
But the other items in the running would include.

• T3 Mathewson or Cobb.
• Type 1 Conlon Photos (Shoeless Joe, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Gehrig)

I view Conlon photos as the baseball equivalent of Ansel Adams. As a collector, they just stand out but I also think that over time they'll gain greater appreciation.

[riggs336]

A low-end one of these. (pictured card is not mine)

[padremurph]

Hope you guys are right on the autographed vintage and agree Ted Williams needs more recognition. I'm a Ted fan since he's from San Diego and had been wanting to pick up either a PlayBall or 54B when this popped up. It's beat to hell, but figured I couldn't really go wrong with an autographed version of one of Ted's better cards

[CobbSpikedMe]

I can't believe I'm the only person on this entire board that would spend 50 grand on a bunch of different cards rather than buy 1-3 cards. I feel like I'm completely alone in a banquet full of investors.

Come on guys, chime in on this thread if you would rather take $50K and buy a bunch of stuff rather than on an investment piece.




P.S. If the sarcasm emoji didn't make it clear to you, I'm being sarcastic with my first statement guys. I'm from Jersey, it's my first language.


.

[benge610]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I can't believe I'm the only person on this entire board that would spend 50 grand on a bunch of different cards rather than buy 1-3 cards. I feel like I'm completely alone in a banquet full of investors.

Come on guys, chime in on this thread if you would rather take $50K and buy a bunch of stuff rather than on an investment piece.




P.S. If the sarcasm emoji didn't make it clear to you, I'm being sarcastic with my first statement guys. I'm from Jersey, it's my first language.


.

You can pick me up, Andy; with your sarcasm bus. I am going your way.
I tend to zig, when others are zagging.

Ben

"I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards."