1940s Homestead Grays Pennant?

[Leon]

Was this 1940s Homesetead Grays Pennant real?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1930s-Homest...p2047675.l2557



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[Hankphenom]

I've always been suspicious of those 3/4 size negro league pennants I've seen frequently over the years, they just never look true vintage to me. I suspect they were made in the 80s.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Yes, there was a find of a few of these teams years ago. Prices usually hover around $150-300 depending on which team. Other than these, negro league pennants are incredibly scarce

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Yes, there was a find of a few of these teams years ago. Prices usually hover around $150-300 depending on which team. Other than these, negro league pennants are incredibly scarce

So how can we tell, if we can, if this was from the 1940s or not? The seller is legit.....

[thecatspajamas]

I think he's saying that they are actually from the 40's, but that there was a "warehouse find" of pennants for certain teams a few years ago, so the general population and condition for those few teams is higher/better than most other negro league pennants. If I'm understanding that correctly, do you have a list of the teams/variations that were in the find?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

I think he's saying that they are actually from the 40's, but that there was a "warehouse find" of pennants for certain teams a few years ago, so the general population and condition for those few teams is higher/better than most other negro league pennants. If I'm understanding that correctly, do you have a list of the teams/variations that were in the find?

OK, gotcha. Hank, above, said he thinks they might have been made in the 1980s and that was the comment I was alluding to. If there was a warehouse find of these pennants, and they are original, then that just means there is more population of them (as you said). My questions are because I thought it was a neat pennant and ended up with it. If it was made in the 1980s I would consider it a fake, if made circa 1940, then I would consider it real. I wouldn't really want a fake pennant. I have very close connections with JustCollect so know there would be no issue on a return if it were made in the 1980s or beyond. So I took the leap because of how well I know the seller. Hope this makes sense....

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hope this makes sense....

Makes sense to me Hopefully Jason can clear up any misunderstanding. I'm kind of curious now myself.

[lefty147]

I do not think it is fake at all. That felt on that pennant looks like it is from the 1940's not the 80's. Not really sure of how big a warehouse find it was. It seems like the Philadelphia Stars and Newark Eagles turn up quite a bit. Mike

[Leon]

Originally Posted by lefty147

I do not think it is fake at all. That felt on that pennant looks like it is from the 1940's not the 80's. Not really sure of how big a warehouse find it was. It seems like the Philadelphia Stars and Newark Eagles turn up quite a bit. Mike

Thanks sir.....I am not really a pennant guy but it does look old .

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thanks sir.....I am not really a pennant guy but it does look old .

Leon,
You should take up autograph collecting, there's a lot less ambiguity there.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Leon,
You should take up autograph collecting, there's a lot less ambiguity there.

LMAO.....I was just thinking about collecting only Ruth signatures on tickets!!

[Hankphenom]

I'm still suspicious, and would like to see some evidence these were made way back. Are they in the new pennant guide? What do pennant experts say?

[Duluth Eskimo]

The find was in the 80's and included the NY Black Yankees, Homestead Grays, Philadelphia Stars, Newark Eagles amongst maybe one or two more. Obviously the Grays is probably the most popular. As with most "finds" condition is exmt or better on most. Every once in a long while you will find one that was sold back in the day that exhibits heavy wear, but not often. The colors, graphics, etc on these are great. For the price, I consider these one of the best pennant buys out there for a couple hundred bucks. Back in the 80's they were selling these as a group for one price.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

The find was in the 80's and included the NY Black Yankees, Homestead Grays, Philadelphia Stars, Newark Eagles amongst maybe one or two more. Obviously the Grays is probably the most popular. As with most "finds" condition is exmt or better on most. Every once in a long while you will find one that was sold back in the day that exhibits heavy wear, but not often. The colors, graphics, etc on these are great. For the price, I consider these one of the best pennant buys out there for a couple hundred bucks. Back in the 80's they were selling these as a group for one price.

Hi Jason
So is it your believe they are period but a group of them was found in the 1980s?

[Duluth Eskimo]

Attachment 96866

Not sure if this will attach but we'll see

[Duluth Eskimo]

Found in the 80's, but my opinion is that they are original. New old stock.

[packs]

I was watching the Black Yankees pennant. Really nice pick up.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Found in the 80's, but my opinion is that they are original. New old stock.

Thanks again.....If you ever need to know anything about an obscure pre-war type card, that almost no one cares about, I can probably help.

[jerseygary]

There is also a Brooklyn Bushwicks pennant around which uses the same stadium illustration as the Elite Giants and Black Yankees. The Bushwicks were a semi-pro team that played many games against the Negro league teams. While I have seen the black teams in both well-used and minty condition like stated above, I have only seen well-used versions of the Bushwicks which makes me think they weren't part of the "find" you're talking about. Somewhere I've seen a period photograph of a Negro league player and a Homestead Grays pennant is pinned to a wall behind him, so at least that one style was produced back in the 1940's. When I lived in Baltimore in the late 1980's I visited a collector who had an Elite Giants pennant as shown. This was before the popularity of the Negro leagues so I always assumed these were the real deal. I know they've been reprinted since, but you can usually tell they are modern-made by the difference in the typography when compared to a real one.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Leon

LMAO.....I was just thinking about collecting only Ruth signatures on tickets!!

Now that's funny!!

[lefty147]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm still suspicious, and would like to see some evidence these were made way back. Are they in the new pennant guide? What do pennant experts say?

They are and were also in the first one too. Mike

[Hankphenom]

Thanks. Anyone have a repro to show as an example of those?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Thanks. Anyone have a repro to show as an example of those?

Just curious Hank. Why does there have to be a repro of these? Have you seen ones you are positive were repros? There very well could be, I don't know.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jerseygary

I know they've been reprinted since, but you can usually tell they are modern-made by the difference in the typography when compared to a real one.

Just responding to this.

[jerseygary]

In the original you can see how the typography of the "HOMESTEAD" is hand-drawn to get smaller as it narrows into the tail of the pennant. Before computers this was drawn by hand and as such it looks much more natural. In the bad copy look at how the "HOMESTEAD" is un-naturally pushed and jammed into a narrower area. It lacks the tastefulness of the original and this is because the type was manipulated in a computer program which lacks the soul that a typographer gives it by his own hand. This is especially apparent in the "S". Another give away is the typeface used which is more of a modern style, something a pennant company artist probably would not have used back in the 1940's. A graphic artist back then would have used various "sign painter" typefaces instead of a "print" typeface which is what the bad copy uses. Other give-away is the illustration, on the copy it is a little cruder and thicker than the original as can be seen in the 2 shadow lines below the batter and catcher.

I have seen more accurate copies of these pennants as well which is probably just a direct copy of the original art. Seem to remember these being around in the mid-1990's.

I have been trying to date them since I first saw them in the 1980's, best I can come is 1943-45 due to the inclusion of the Cincinnati Clowns pennant of the same style. The Clowns played out of Cincinnati during the 1943-45 seasons, the last 2 they were known also as the Indianapolis Clowns.

[Hankphenom]

I'm certainly no expert in the details of pennant manufacturing, and if I'd had to choose between them I would have gotten it dead wrong. The original looks to my eyes considerably "cheesier" than the copy, which just presents nicer in appearance. Any clue as to who made the copy? Was it Mitchell and Ness? Whoever it was did a nice job, again only as my eyes judge them side by side.

[perezfan]

If you could see both pennants up-close and touch/feel them, you would see the difference immediately. The aged vintage felt is different in make-up and texture, as compared to more modern felt.

The tassels are also different... usually the newer repros have tassels that are too thick/too big, in proportion to the body of the pennant.

Another key to look for is cracking/puckering of the painted graphics, which is a natural occurrence, and happens about 90% of the time.

I don't think Mitchell & Ness did the repros of these Negro League Pennants. Most of the M & N reproductions feature a crushed velvet type of graphics, as opposed to application of actual paint.

[Hankphenom]

Any clue as to who made (is making?) the repros, or at least when they started coming onto the market and how common they are? Any other old pennants that have been repro'd to your knowledge other than M & Ns? Just trying to get a handle on the extent of it, and wondering if it was done in the case of the negro league pennants to deceive buyers or to honor the originals?

[Duluth Eskimo]

There have been pennant reproductions for years and some that were done in the 80's are being passed off as originals nowadays. Even the big auction house have been known to pass these along. A very good repro is hard to find as Perezfan stated and it usually quite obvious when you feel the fabric, etc. The biggest issue with vintage pennants today is trimming to deceive. Narrowing of the pennant to make a sharp tip. In regards to the Negro League pennants I don't think you would be fooled if you had it in hand. Take care, Jason

[perezfan]

This should demonstrate the difference between old vs. new felt... The new felt is simply flat, and lacks depth and soul (for lack of a better word). Note the textural differences in the two Philadelphia Stars Pennants (below...)

With regard to graphics, the newer '80s Reproduction can't replicate the fine lines and detail, featured in the original.

Also posted below is a Baltimore Elite Giants '80s Repro. This one really shouldn't fool anyone here.

I don't know the maker of these 1980s repros, but apparently Adelson Sports does. Here's a quote from their ebay listing...

"This is a great reproduction - soft felt and same design as the original one that was made in the 1930's. I know this because the company that reproduced these negro league pennants purchased the orginal pennants from our company."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BALTIMORE-EL...b#ht_612wt_940

Today, the originals are actually more prevalent than the reproductions. Again... anyone who sees both types in person (other than a complete novice) should not be fooled by these repros.

[perezfan]

More on reproduction pennants...

Pictured below are two that are very commonly passed off as originals (and sometimes sell for "original type" money). See the 1980s Brooklyn and NY Giants Pennants below... maker unknown.

Also pictured are 3 modern repros from Mitchell & Ness. These shouldn't fool anyone, and were not made with purposes to deceive. They are just for decoration, and sold at retail for a fraction of the price of the originals.

Still (as Duluth Eskimo pointed out) a few have crept into the Catalogs of Major Auction Houses... Legendary, Huggins, etc.