Will the joe namath rookie card Topps 1965 become the next Mantle 52?

[jefferyepayne]

So the question remains: if not Namath, who?

What card is going to rise up and become the Topps 52 Mantle of football over time?

Thoughts?

jeff

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

So the question remains: if not Namath, who?

What card is going to rise up and become the Topps 52 Mantle of football over time?

Thoughts?

jeff

Not sure that any card will. Unlike baseball, the relatively early stars (Graham, Baugh, Motley, Hutson, etc.) just do not seem to be revered. Not sure why that is. Football is as or more popular than baseball as a sport but the history seems much less important to fans and collectors. By the time you get to Unitas and Brown the cards are so plentiful even in high grade that I just don't see it. Nagurski is a logical candidate on some criteria I guess, but does anyone really care?

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

So the question remains: if not Namath, who?

What card is going to rise up and become the Topps 52 Mantle of football over time?

Thoughts?

jeff

No card. I'm not even sure the Namath will maintain it's current price range. Even Chicle prices seem to be returning to earth, and with it the price of Nags. I'd rather have a '59 Bazooka Jim Brown than a '58 keyhole RC. In fact, I'd probably rather have a '59 Bazooka Johnny Unitas than a '57 RC. As previously mentioned the '76 Payton or '81 Montana are too numerous. For this collector, the '77 Largent distributed in Mexico is the prize of my collection, but not a famous enough card. Had Largent parlayed his gig in Congress to a term in the White House it may be a different story NO card, final answer.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

No card. I'm not even sure the Namath will maintain it's current price range. Even Chicle prices seem to be returning to earth, and with it the price of Nags. I'd rather have a '59 Bazooka Jim Brown than a '58 keyhole RC. In fact, I'd probably rather have a '59 Bazooka Johnny Unitas than a '57 RC. As previously mentioned the '76 Payton or '81 Montana are too numerous. For this collector, the '77 Largent distributed in Mexico is the prize of my collection, but not a famous enough card. Had Largent parlayed his gig in Congress to a term in the White House it may be a different story NO card, final answer.

Could be the case that no card is ever the Mantle of football but I don't believe for a second that vintage football cards are at a peak in value. There's always ups and downs tied to the economy but overall card values continue upwards.

And where are you seeing Chicles "returning to earth"? Nags? I don't see that anywhere. It's seldom that I see a Chicle auction for a 7 or 8 go for less than the highest recorded VCP price. Or maybe its in the lower grades?

I also haven't seen a bargain Nags in forever either but can't say I've been tracking every single one that comes up for auction. The ones I have tracked have all gone for more than the prices I had recorded for sales over the past 4-5 years.

jeff

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

Could be the case that no card is ever the Mantle of football but I don't believe for a second that vintage football cards are at a peak in value. There's always ups and downs tied to the economy but overall card values continue upwards.

And where are you seeing Chicles "returning to earth"? Nags? I don't see that anywhere. It's seldom that I see a Chicle auction for a 7 or 8 go for less than the highest recorded VCP price. Or maybe its in the lower grades?

I also haven't seen a bargain Nags in forever either but can't say I've been tracking every single one that comes up for auction. The ones I have tracked have all gone for more than the prices I had recorded for sales over the past 4-5 years.

jeff

I don't know about 7 or 8 Chicles as they are out my budget, and I take your word for it Jeff as you have more experience in them. I am admittedly a lower grade collector and can only say, I would not even consider chasing the Chicle set 3-5 years ago, but have seen recent auctions of well centered 3 or 4's go at very reasonable prices. As for the Nags, and if memory serves I believe there was a SGC 20 for little plus $1000 on the BST just recently here.

[S_GERACE]

I think that the Namath already is the '52 Mantle of Football cards, but that's just it. I don't think that Football cards will ever reach the levels that Baseball cards currently enjoy. There are/were so many more Baseball cards printed than their Football counterparts but there are also many more collectors and while Football is far more popular than Baseball, the history of Baseball is more appealing to fans/collectors because so much more is known about early Baseball stars than Football stars.

This is also a double edged sword though because I think that Baseball cards will eventually lose a larger percentage of their value relative to Football cards. I think that the Baseball fan base is aging while Football popularity is still relatively young as it really began to boom in the late '50's and early '60's. I can honestly see the Baseball card market taking a "nosedive" in maybe 20 years (or less) as the "Baby Boomers" pass and leave their collections to younger relatives who will care little or nothing for a game that they find "slow & boring". As an example, and this is by no means scientific, I gave my nephew a binder full of Football cards and a PSA graded Topps Traded Albert Pujols RC. Recently I asked my brother if my nephew was trading cards yet (he is 9 yo) and my brother said that he takes his binder to school w/ him everyday. I then said to take the Pujols in as well to see if he could trade it to which my brother replied, "he did, but nobody wants Baseball cards".

Football cards will probably NEVER reach the levels currently enjoyed by Baseball cards & Baseball cards will most likely not hold their current levels either but I don't think that there will be a point in my lifetime where a Namath RC will trade hands for $400K.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by S_GERACE

I think that the Namath already is the '52 Mantle of Football cards, but that's just it. I don't think that Football cards will ever reach the levels that Baseball cards currently enjoy. There are/were so many more Baseball cards printed than their Football counterparts but there are also many more collectors and while Football is far more popular than Baseball, the history of Baseball is more appealing to fans/collectors because so much more is known about early Baseball stars than Football stars.

This is also a double edged sword though because I think that Baseball cards will eventually lose a larger percentage of their value relative to Football cards. I think that the Baseball fan base is aging while Football popularity is still relatively young as it really began to boom in the late '50's and early '60's. I can honestly see the Baseball card market taking a "nosedive" in maybe 20 years (or less) as the "Baby Boomers" pass and leave their collections to younger relatives who will care little or nothing for a game that they find "slow & boring". As an example, and this is by no means scientific, I gave my nephew a binder full of Football cards and a PSA graded Topps Traded Albert Pujols RC. Recently I asked my brother if my nephew was trading cards yet (he is 9 yo) and my brother said that he takes his binder to school w/ him everyday. I then said to take the Pujols in as well to see if he could trade it to which my brother replied, "he did, but nobody wants Baseball cards".

Football cards will probably NEVER reach the levels currently enjoyed by Baseball cards & Baseball cards will most likely not hold their current levels either but I don't think that there will be a point in my lifetime where a Namath RC will trade hands for $400K.

Agree, Scott. People forget that the NFL is perhaps 50 years younger than MLB so baseball has had a heck of a head start! I believe football cards / memorabilia will continue to rise but its long-term value will be more determined by whether collecting collectibles appeals to younger generations.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Great Thread!

I think Peter hit the nail on the head when he said this:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Unlike baseball, the relatively early stars (Graham, Baugh, Motley, Hutson, etc.) just do not seem to be revered. Not sure why that is. Football is as or more popular than baseball as a sport but the history seems much less important to fans and collectors.

I've talked to people who are completely football obsessed - spend their whole weekends watching/travelling to college and pro games etc. But if you talk history with them its Jim Brown, Lombardi's Packers, Gale Sayers - that's about it. (They recognize there was a pre Super Bowl era (barely), but it's as if the first 35-40 years of it never happened.) Anything from the early days they don't recognize the names. That's been my experience - admittedly a small sample size.

And Jeff, I mentioned this in a few other threads - in my view Chicle prices are not only down, but falling. Hopefully, its just a natural ebb and flow and they'll recover, but I'm at least a little concerned. I'm seeing it on the mid and low grade cards - there is no question there. On the high grades, I'm not sure - I noticed one or two PSA 7 cards go low, but the centering wasn't good enough to draw a conclusion. The Nagurski transcends the Chicle set - HOF rookie, top 100 cards in the hobby, etc., so I wouldn't expect it to fall, but I'm not seeing a rising trend on low grade decent eye appeal examples like these:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...3+HOF&_sacat=0

To get back on topic, Namath really isn't Mantle in terms of playing career. Very roughly and very subjectively if you take Mantle as #9 all-time as per ESPN and you look at the NFL top 100 produced by the NFL Network:

1986 TOPPS JERRY RICE
1958 TOPPS JIM BROWN
1982 TOPPS LAWRENCE TAYLOR
1981 TOPPS JOE MONTANA
1976 TOPPS WALTER PAYTON
1957 TOPPS JOHNNY UNITAS
1984 TOPPS USFL REGGIE WHITE
1998 SP AUTHENTIC PEYTON MANNING
1955 TOPPS ALL-AMERICAN DON HUTSON
1966 PHILADELPHIA DICK BUTKUS

Unitas may be the closest analogy to Mantle since he's a QB and QBs seem to be the most popular football players and they both have a rookie card from the 50s. Unitas didn't play in NY though.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Great Thread!

I think Peter hit the nail on the head when he said this:

Unlike baseball, the relatively early stars (Graham, Baugh, Motley, Hutson, etc.) just do not seem to be revered. Not sure why that is. Football is as or more popular than baseball as a sport but the history seems much less important to fans and collectors.

I've talked to people who are completely football obsessed - spend their whole weekends watching/travelling to college and pro games etc. But if you talk history with them its Jim Brown, Lombardi's Packers, Gale Sayers - that's about it. Anything earlier than that they don't even recognize the names. That's been my experience - admittedly a very small sample size.

I think there lots of reasons why football fans feel this way:

1. The NFL does a horrible job of glorifying its past ... its just not something they seem to care about doing. Baseball does a much better job.

2. Football is often considered the perfect sport for TV and, perhaps because of this, players / teams prior to the TV era of the 50s don't get a lot of attention. The popularity of football exploded when it moved to the tube.

3. The rules have changed soooo much that nobody from way back owns any of the major records any longer so their names never come up. People can't identify with a QB who has the same number of interceptions as touchdowns or a completion percentage of 50% as being any good. Way back those were considered pretty good numbers! At one time throwing for 3,000 yards in a season was a MAJOR accomplishment. Today QBs might get fired for that low of a yardage total.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

I don't know about 7 or 8 Chicles as they are considerably out my budget, and I take your word for it Jeff as you have considerably more experience in them. I am admittedly a lower grade collector and can only say, I would not even consider chasing the Chicle set three years or five years ago, but have seen recent auctions of well centered 3 or 4's go at very reasonable prices. As for the Nags, and if memory serves I believe there was recently a SGC 20 for little plus $1000 on the BST just recently here.

Don't recall that Nags, Ty, but anything is possible. The SGC 20's I've seen sell recently have all been between $1900 - $2500.

jeff

[RedlegsFan]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

So the question remains: if not Namath, who?



What card is going to rise up and become the Topps 52 Mantle of football over time?



Thoughts?



jeff

There will never be another.




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[HRBAKER]

Is Joe Namath overrated - sure.
Is he a HOFer - yes.
Is his significance as much a cause as his play and statistics - absolutely.
He changed football as we know it FOREVER when he won SBIII.

As for the card - never approach the Mantle level simply because the demand will never be there.

[S_GERACE]

Great upgrade Larry! Your new one has a much better image (brighter/clearer) and reverse. Great price too! Congratulations!