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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Modern Baseball Cards Forum (1980-Present)

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  #1  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:42 PM
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Default God almighty! (Buyers beware)^100

I would love it if some of you are able to shoot down these claims, but the author certainly brought a lot of receipts. Top dollar cards are being trimmed and faked and sailing right through TPG and major sellers (e.g., PWCC, Probstein).

http://www.sportscardradio.com/alert...by-psa-or-bgs/

If even half these check out it seems to be an apocalypse-level blow to the modern hobby.

Per N54 policy since there are accusations in the link, my full name is Jason Schwartz. (I didn't write the article, but I am passing it along with my belief that it is credible.)

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Last edited by jason.1969; 04-29-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:44 PM
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I've read some of the underlying threads on Blowout. The person posting most of these appears to have done meticulous research and presents strong photo evidence, although he is anonymous.

I suspect that PSA will weather the storm, they are masters at the ostrich thing.

And life will go on, same as always, with submissions ever increasing.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-29-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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  #3  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:49 PM
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Yes, the photos seem hard to contest.

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  #4  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
Yes, the photos seem hard to contest.

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I suspect PSA's graders, particularly if these cards are going to junior graders, just are not up to the task of detecting work by master card doctors. But that, IMO, has long been the case. As I've said many times, and quoting a friend of mine, for your modest grading fee you aren't buying a crime lab.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-29-2019 at 12:56 PM.
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  #5  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:07 PM
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A related thread that, if true, is disturbing on several levels.

http://www.sportscardradio.com/heroe...up-break-scam/
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  #6  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:28 PM
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Modern collectors that don't read blowout are doing themselves a disservice.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
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Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #7  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Modern collectors that don't read blowout are doing themselves a disservice.
You have to wonder if anyone really cares.
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
You have to wonder if anyone really cares.
People care, the percentage of them is so low that nothing ever changes.
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  #9  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:58 PM
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I guess, Ben. Seems like more and more and more of the hobby is moving to the holy trinity of PWCC, PSA, and altered cards.
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  #10  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:06 PM
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Again, half of these cards were graded by BGS (check the other threads all over blowout). And at least with PSA, the buyers have the Grade Guarantee and can get their money back. With BGS, what do they get? Nada. And this is the holy grail modern market that SGC is trying to get a foothold in. Good luck. The only reason they're not exposed is because nobody submits to them for this.

But yes, they are still setting record prices with modern card grading because the buyers don't seem to know the whole story yet.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Again, half of these cards were graded by BGS (check the other threads all over blowout). And at least with PSA, the buyers have the Grade Guarantee and can get their money back. With BGS, what do they get? Nada. And this is the holy grail modern market that SGC is trying to get a foothold in. Good luck. The only reason they're not exposed is because nobody submits to them for this.

But yes, they are still setting record prices with modern card grading because the buyers don't seem to know the whole story yet.
To me, Beckett is essentially irrelevant at this point. Their values relative to PSA are dropping all the time. Their grading on Star basketball is a joke, if only they weren't the only choice. They don't seem to have a clue what's trimmed, on a broad scale. Etc. So yes, the threads are about them too, but I don't care.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-29-2019 at 09:20 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Again, half of these cards were graded by BGS (check the other threads all over blowout). And at least with PSA, the buyers have the Grade Guarantee and can get their money back. With BGS, what do they get? Nada. And this is the holy grail modern market that SGC is trying to get a foothold in. Good luck. The only reason they're not exposed is because nobody submits to them for this.

But yes, they are still setting record prices with modern card grading because the buyers don't seem to know the whole story yet.
John how many people do you think PSA is really going to refund here? The guaranty is only good if PSA admits the card is bad. PSA is still claiming the Wagner is good, what does that tell you.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-29-2019 at 09:18 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2019, 05:45 AM
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Has PSA actually regraded/reviewed the "8" Wagner, or are you bloviating? I believe it has been reholdered, but if the owner didn't want the grade changed, then PSA has done what they were asked to do.
It would be hard to value that card in an AUTH ALTERED holder because it is still the most famous Wagner copy and has it's own provenance that includes the Great One, so it would be difficult to find out the difference that PSA should be liable for. However, I agree with you, they should recall that card and do the job.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Has PSA actually regraded/reviewed the "8" Wagner, or are you bloviating? I believe it has been reholdered, but if the owner didn't want the grade changed, then PSA has done what they were asked to do.
It would be hard to value that card in an AUTH ALTERED holder because it is still the most famous Wagner copy and has it's own provenance that includes the Great One, so it would be difficult to find out the difference that PSA should be liable for. However, I agree with you, they should recall that card and do the job.
After Mastro admitted trimming it, David Hall at one of the PSA functions specifically reaffirmed that he had personally seen the card and it was good and Mastro should not be believed, as I understand it. I recall something similar happened when in the book "The Card" Bill Hughes, who graded it for PSA, said they knew it was trimmed.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ite...ntry-1.1632308
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-30-2019 at 08:12 AM.
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  #15  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I guess, Ben. Seems like more and more and more of the hobby is moving to the holy trinity of PWCC, PSA, and altered cards.
It seems to me that PWCC is getting more and more culpable. There was a card in last month's auction basically advertising it was ready to be trimmed. The description was.....

Fantastic Nicklaus rookie card on the market this month. A some what over-sized copy which boasts sharp corners, strong card stock and beautiful surfaces. A couple points better centered and this would grade higher. One of nearly 15,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 4th Auction of 2019. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots. The PWCC Vault is now live! Open a PWCC Vault account and receive a custom Vault shipping address. Purchases shipped to the Vault receive free shipping and reflect Oregon's 0% sales tax rate

If you see a 1971 Nicklaus PSA 10 come up soon, you'll know where it came from.
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  #16  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Arazi4442 View Post
It seems to me that PWCC is getting more and more culpable. There was a card in last month's auction basically advertising it was ready to be trimmed. The description was.....

Fantastic Nicklaus rookie card on the market this month. A some what over-sized copy which boasts sharp corners, strong card stock and beautiful surfaces. A couple points better centered and this would grade higher. One of nearly 15,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 4th Auction of 2019. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots. The PWCC Vault is now live! Open a PWCC Vault account and receive a custom Vault shipping address. Purchases shipped to the Vault receive free shipping and reflect Oregon's 0% sales tax rate

If you see a 1971 Nicklaus PSA 10 come up soon, you'll know where it came from.
My far bigger concern, and it applies to all major ebay sellers who take consignments and auction houses, is that they (or most of them) are outlets for card doctors. I get it -- the TPG gives them cover etc. etc. -- but it's very troubling to me nonetheless. If anyone thinks all this high end inventory is just coming from collectors, with due respect, you're nave.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-30-2019 at 12:21 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-30-2019, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Again, half of these cards were graded by BGS (check the other threads all over blowout).
Is that your 'guess' or did you actually count them? I didn't check blowout, but the count I got from the SCR piece was:
PSA - 38
Beckett - 21 (ALL Beckett, whether BGS or BVG)
Hardly half. More like 1/3 Beckett and 2/3 PSA.

Does Blowout paint a different picture to relative percentages? Or is this through PSA-tinted glasses? FWIW, I have no skin in the game either way (beyond how it affects the industry as a whole), but let's not try to sugar coat PSA's lack of ability to sniff these out either.
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  #18  
Old 04-30-2019, 05:18 PM
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I didn't do the math, but this latest round has been almost all PSA. Both deserve heavy criticism, and there is concern the current PWCC 52 Mantle PSA 4.5 may have been pressed as well that didn't get detected.
BGS and SGC usually get the cover in these threads and PSA takes all the bashing. Just trying to show it's not a one horse show.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2019, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
I didn't do the math, but this latest round has been almost all PSA. Both deserve heavy criticism, and there is concern the current PWCC 52 Mantle PSA 4.5 may have been pressed as well that didn't get detected.
BGS and SGC usually get the cover in these threads and PSA takes all the bashing. Just trying to show it's not a one horse show.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:33 PM
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I saw the comment on junior graders but when you are going to give a card worth this kind of money a 10 I think ANY TPG should cover all the basics. Clearly all that needed to happen to stop this was to measure the cards. Not exactly crime lab level scrutiny.
I personally do not spend thousands of dollars on these types of cards, but i do spend hundreds and I will definitely be measuring cards after every purchase.
J
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  #21  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
My far bigger concern, and it applies to all major ebay sellers who take consignments and auction houses, is that they (or most of them) are outlets for card doctors. I get it -- the TPG gives them cover etc. etc. -- but it's very troubling to me nonetheless. If anyone thinks all this high end inventory is just coming from collectors, with due respect, you're nave.
I know you're probably right and that is sad.

I knew all my cards with razor sharp corners were trimmed, now I'm sure of it.

Would PWCC refer you to a good card Doctor after purchase you think?
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  #22  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:04 AM
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this will never end
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