Card doctoring video

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

What you just described is a crime. In the scenario, the alterer is required to disclose he altered them.

Fraud 101 -- intentional nondisclosure/concealment of a material fact, in order to induce a sale at a higher price.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fraud 101 -- intentional nondisclosure/concealment of a material fact, in order to induce a sale at a higher price.

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

I don’t know what you’re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don’t know what you’re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

Then why waste time here talking…? There are a few hundred pages of evidence over on blowout of trimmed cards in holders. Some of those buyers can certainly use your legal expertise.

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

My understanding is that the FBI investigation was not just for trimmed cards, but trimmed cards that somehow were slabbed and given something other than the Scarlet 'A'. If the trimmers were working in cahoots with the TPAs to have them turn the other way on the alterations, then that is another story and something that should be investigated and prosecuted.

[SAllen2556]

What is hilariously (and sadly) ironic is that PSA's business model and rapid growth was tied to the idea of eliminating fraud in the hobby by selling themselves as experts who would grade cards and detect alterations. (Beckett and SGC as well)

Now it seems that grading companies are the very source of legitimizing and encouraging fraud. A graded card is deemed pure. We're not supposed to question the card's authenticity, and, even if we do, we can't examine the card anymore because it's entombed in plastic.

Once a card is in that plastic case it becomes hard currency. If you can alter a card and get away with it, the reward vastly outweighs the risk - because there is no risk. So PSA has become nothing more than a money laundering outfit. You commit fraud, pay them a fee, and they wash it clean. Pretty damn clever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

What is hilariously (and sadly) ironic is that PSA's business model and rapid growth was tied to the idea of eliminating fraud in the hobby by selling themselves as experts who would grade cards and detect alterations. (Beckett and SGC as well)

Now it seems that grading companies are the very source of legitimizing and encouraging fraud. A graded card is deemed pure. We're not supposed to question the card's authenticity, and, even if we do, we can't examine the card anymore because it's entombed in plastic.

Once a card is in that plastic case it becomes hard currency. If you can alter a card and get away with it, the reward vastly outweighs the risk - because there is no risk. So PSA has become nothing more than a money laundering outfit. You commit fraud, pay them a fee, and they wash it clean. Pretty damn clever.

Good summation. My only question is whether David Hall envisioned this from day one, or it just evolved that way because it became obvious the business could not succeed without compromising with the card doctors, and ensuring a large supply of artificially high graded cards.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Then why waste time here talking…? There are a few hundred pages of evidence over on blowout of trimmed cards in holders. Some of those buyers can certainly use your legal expertise.

Money, sonny. Lawyers don't work for free. Find me someone where I am licensed (CA) who wants to ante up my retainer and pay my fees and I will happily sue any miscreant. PWCC was very well advised. By repaying the complaining parties they headed off the potential charges. Many prosecutors will defer or pass on charges when the alleged miscreant makes restitution. It is a better outcome for the victims. I've been involved with a few cases like that on the civil end of it.

Originally Posted by nwobhm

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

That's true, 100%. Fraud comes into play when that person knowingly sells that trimmed card without disclosing it.

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Bullshit…. Absolute bullshit. If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone.

Ahh, I get it. You're just taking jhe piss with us, right?

[Rascal1010]

I'm not a doctor (of cards), or a lawyer, but my question is who is the person that broke the law? If you have a card in your personal collection that you purchased in a TPG holder and you sell it, but it is later discovered that the card was trimmed, did you commit a crime by simply selling an unknowingly altered card? If it's the unknowing owner of the card that sold it, I fear most collectors that own purchased high graded TPG cards and ever sell them could be criminally prosecuted for committing a crime they didn't even realize was happening. If it was the trimmer who originally trimmed the card, how do you prove who that was, unless they were dumb enough to video themselves trimming the card, I don't see how it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any certain person trimmed a certain card.

I don't foresee anyone ever actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, because it appears that the person who could be convicted in most cases is in reality an innocent person, whereas the true guilty party that has committed a crime, is committing a crime that is virtually impossible to prove. If you extend the guilt to all people that were in the chain of ownership of the card, then you are going to have an awful long list of people and not very many left in the hobby that couldn't be named at some point in a court case.

In my opinion the true crime that was committed was done by the TPG company that gave the card a numerical grade. These companies were providing a service for a fee to detect these altered cards and have truly failed the entire hobby with the service they have provided. I look at one card in particular that I am personally experienced with, the 1968 O-Pee-Chee Billy Williams card. These were all factory mis-cut cards from the factory, not a couple sheets of them, but every single one of them due to their positioning on the sheet and the sheet cutting technology that was used at the time. PSA has however given a numerical graded to a handful of these cards over the years. I have personally seen and looked at a few of these PSA graded cards, and every last one of them is factory mis-cut short, along with every one of the hundreds of raw one's that I have looked at over the last decade. This is a case of PSA failing to do the job they were paid to do.

I'm not sure that the trimming of cards is more rampant in the hobby today than it ever was, the difference today from 1980 is today we have trusted? companies making huge profits off of collectors for doing a sub-par job of detecting these altered cards.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Rascal1010

I'm not a doctor (of cards), or a lawyer, but my question is who is the person that broke the law? If you have a card in your personal collection that you purchased in a TPG holder and you sell it, but it is later discovered that the card was trimmed, did you commit a crime by simply selling an unknowingly altered card? If it's the unknowing owner of the card that sold it, I fear most collectors that own purchased high graded TPG cards and ever sell them could be criminally prosecuted for committing a crime they didn't even realize was happening. If it was the trimmer who originally trimmed the card, how do you prove who that was, unless they were dumb enough to video themselves trimming the card, I don't see how it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any certain person trimmed a certain card.

I don't foresee anyone ever actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, because it appears that the person who could be convicted in most cases is in reality an innocent person, whereas the true guilty party that has committed a crime, is committing a crime that is virtually impossible to prove. If you extend the guilt to all people that were in the chain of ownership of the card, then you are going to have an awful long list of people and not very many left in the hobby that couldn't be named at some point in a court case.

In my opinion the true crime that was committed was done by the TPG company that gave the card a numerical grade. These companies were providing a service for a fee to detect these altered cards and have truly failed the entire hobby with the service they have provided. I look at one card in particular that I am personally experienced with, the 1968 O-Pee-Chee Billy Williams card. These were all factory mis-cut cards from the factory, not a couple sheets of them, but every single one of them due to their positioning on the sheet and the sheet cutting technology that was used at the time. PSA has however given a numerical graded to a handful of these cards over the years. I have personally seen and looked at a few of these PSA graded cards, and every last one of them is factory mis-cut short, along with every one of the hundreds of raw one's that I have looked at over the last decade. This is a case of PSA failing to do the job they were paid to do.

I'm not sure that the trimming of cards is more rampant in the hobby today than it ever was, the difference today from 1980 is today we have trusted? companies making huge profits off of collectors for doing a sub-par job of detecting these altered cards.

Agree with your first two points Spot on Point Sir Up. I do not in any way shape or form see that any crime was committed by the grading companies, zero, they’re just giving an Opinion.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

All those things should also be disclosed. A car with original paint is worth more. Rolex with fully original parts worth more. New physical media in untouched unopened condition is always worth considerably more your examples all suck. I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by glynparson

All those things should also be disclosed. A car with original paint is worth more. Rolex with fully original parts worth more. New physical media in untouched unopened condition is always worth considerably more your examples all suck. I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this could rise to a crime.

A person has a card, alters the card, and then sells the card (take grading out of it). How is this a crime? Unethical, yes, but a crime?

And please don't bring up Maestro. He was not convicted of altering a card (that is a myth).

While I hate this subject as much as other collectors, throwing around the word crime for something that it is not is frustrating.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many times do I have to explain this going all the way back to 2019? I give up. Think whatever you want, ignorance is bliss as they say. And yes, while not the main focus of the case, if you actually read the Mastro indictment (to which he pled guilty) part of it is selling the Wagner without disclosure that it was altered. Not myth, fact.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many times do I have to explain this? I give up. Think whatever you want, ignorance is bliss as they say. And yes, while not the main focus of the case, if you actually read the Mastro indictment (to which he pled guilty) part of it is selling the Wagner without disclosure that it was altered. Not myth, fact.

So I am reading the indictment:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/ch...r-collectibles

So I am seeing that part, but what I am not seeing is him being convicted of that.

"In a plea agreement, Mastro admitted to driving up prices through shill bidding between 2002 and 2009. He and his associates would bid up auctions to drive prices higher."

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr...l-bidding-scam

Read the discussion of the Wagner.

Here, I'll make it easy for you.

The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

No doubt… a lawyer is infallible.

Regardless, I can be convinced that trimming is truly illegal.

Possible to point me in the direction of a trimmer be convicted specifically of card trimming?

Not looking for convoluted TPG, shilling scams.

An actual straightforward case of a guy trimmed a card, didn’t disclose, then sold it for profit….?