Hey, pennant guys

[MK]

Did any other teams use this stadium and crossed bats style?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by MK

Did any other teams use this stadium and crossed bats style?

Not “my boys.” That picture is more Ebbets than Wrigley, no?

[MK]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Not “my boys.” That picture is more Ebbets than Wrigley, no?

Yep, that’s not Wrigley. But it’s really hard to find.

[perezfan]

I think those were the only two teams to use it. And agree with Mike... for every dozen or so Dodgers examples you see, there is maybe one Cubs.

[Bumpus Jones]

ok pennant afficianados, what are we looking at here? it measures 12 x 9 inches and is made of a stiff felt pennant material with a dowel through the top for the string at the top. It has the feel of being from a series for all teams but i'm not sure. please give your thoughts...

[perezfan]

Pretty cool, Chris...

Looks to be vintage 1970s (maybe early '80s). And I agree that it looks like something that would've been made for all teams.

With all the Reds stuff, and the thousands of pennants/banners I've seen over the years, I can honestly say I've never seen one of these. Must have had a very limited production run. Hopefully someone here can shed some light!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Pretty cool, Chris...

Looks to be vintage 1970s (maybe early '80s). And I agree that it looks like something that would've been made for all teams.

With all the Reds stuff, and the thousands of pennants/banners I've seen over the years, I can honestly say I've never seen one of these. Must have had a very limited production run. Hopefully someone here can shed some light!

Interesting and very cool! ... I do notice that logo is not trademarked. For whatever that means ...

[Duluth Eskimo]

Chris,
I would say late 60’s like some of the other non conforming “pennants”. Especially with the dowel and string. I don’t have any exact info, but I immediately thought 67-68ish before seeing what Mark said. I’ll see if I can find anything like that, but I rarely keep example type stuff.

[Bumpus Jones]

Thanks for your input so far fellas!

[thetahat]

I’m now thinking if it is a licensed product (not bootleg) it has to be 1968. That’s apparently the first year of that logo, and from 69 on logos on licensed products were trademarked.

[Bumpus Jones]

Thanks, Greg. That also echo's Jason's thoughts. I guess we might be looking at an early big red machine era pennant.

[perezfan]

Well perhaps I stand corrected on the timing by a couple of years. The combination of the super stiff "felt" and that version of "Running Man" Mr. Red are more indicative of the '70s to me personally.

Here is a great article on Mr. Red, as he evolved through the years, with very specific timelines. Link directly below...

https://uni-watch.com/2015/08/24/rad...tudy-3-mr-red/


So 1968 is when the Running Man Logo first officially appeared. But I can assure you that Crosley Field was still loaded with souvenirs, pennants and epherma of the more classic version of Mr. Red all the way through the 1968 season (see the guy pictured, as well as two links below...)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Housto...MAAOSw0TxdUJJo

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-CINCIN...4AAOSwsAdeRMYl

Awesome Banner, regardless of the exact year. But if similar ones were created for other teams, you'd think we would have seen at least one other example. So it might remain a mystery until another one surfaces!

[ooo-ribay]

I grew up in Ohio and hated the Big Red Machine. I was in a bar at Ohio University, waving with Carlton for that HR to stay fair. I was about the only one. My Giants whupped the Reds in the first MLB game I ever attended.

[perezfan]

That's funny Rob...


Our family moved from SF to Cincy in 1967. If not for that move, I would be right there with you. I always liked the Giants, even as a Reds fan.

But gotta say the night of that Fisk Home Run was a "Bottom 3" for me... well, for about 24 hours, anyway.

[ooo-ribay]

These days, I would love to see the Reds take down the Cubs/Cardinals/Brewers!

[Bumpus Jones]

Interesting stuff Mark and thanks for sharing. It's definitely possible it's from the 70's but by the aged look of it in person, I would guess late 60's or early 70's. Good point about not seeing other teams in this style though. We may never find the answer...

[Domer05]

Who came first? Mr. Red ... or Mr. Met?

I'm guessing Mr. Red. If so, how do Reds fans feel about such a blatant copy of their mascot?

[perezfan]

Hate him!

Mr. Met is a blatant imposter who came along over a decade later.

[Domer05]

A few months ago we debated the meaning of certain marks found on 1970s pennants: namely "VET" and "M." Nobody really had a clear answer. My opinion then, as now, is that these were likely concessionaire's marks rather than maker's marks.

The below Dodgers pennant was made in the late 1960s, early 1970s. It exists in three different variants. The first shows the ASCO maker's mark. My presumption is ASCO made all variants of this pennant. Three other variations exist: blank; "VET"; and "M."

I just bought the "M" variant. The owner shared with me, in passing, that he/she purchased it in the 1970s at Riverfront Stadium.

I recall baseball Rob owning a similar Giants pennant bearing the same "M" thereon. He's also from Ohio. Might this "M" have been an Ohio retailer?


Unfortunately for my theory, it appears that Riverfront Stadium's concessionaire was Sportservice when it opened in 1970. And, to my knowledge, Sportservice never utilized a concessionaire's mark resembling an "M".

So whatever this "M" means, it may have something to do with Ohio. And that "VET" one may, in fact, have something to do with Veteran's Stadium/Philadelphia after all.

[Fballguy]

Speaking of concessioner's marks. This is what they looked like in 1936.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

A few months ago we debated the meaning of certain marks found on 1970s pennants: namely "VET" and "M." Nobody really had a clear answer. My opinion then, as now, is that these were likely concessionaire's marks rather than maker's marks.

The below Dodgers pennant was made in the late 1960s, early 1970s. It exists in three different variants. The first shows the ASCO maker's mark. My presumption is ASCO made all variants of this pennant. Three other variations exist: blank; "VET"; and "M."

I just bought the "M" variant. The owner shared with me, in passing, that he/she purchased it in the 1970s at Riverfront Stadium.

I recall baseball Rob owning a similar Giants pennant bearing the same "M" thereon. He's also from Ohio. Might this "M" have been an Ohio retailer?


Unfortunately for my theory, it appears that Riverfront Stadium's concessionaire was Sportservice when it opened in 1970. And, to my knowledge, Sportservice never utilized a concessionaire's mark resembling an "M".

So whatever this "M" means, it may have something to do with Ohio. And that "VET" one may, in fact, have something to do with Veteran's Stadium/Philadelphia after all.

Great post! I can only tell you, my first pennants given to me as a very young kid in the mid-late 70s ... were all bought at Veterans Stadium souvenir stands, and they are all marked “VET”. I still own 3-4 of them.

[ooo-ribay]

I am from Ohio but I got my “M” marked pennant at least 20 years after I left the Buckeye State.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Speaking of concessioner's marks. This is what they looked like in 1936.

Rob,
That’s a great pennant and a tougher variation of the 1936 Yankees that is normally seen.

PS: I sent you a PM.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Speaking of concessioner's marks. This is what they looked like in 1936.

That's a beauty, Rob. I did some research on Charles Shear that I recently included as an update to my piece on Trench Mfg. Co.

Charles Shear came to the US as an immigrant boy. He started a business in New York City under his name that would grow into one of the nation's largest novelty operators. In particular, Shear's business focused on concessions; he sold novelty items at fairs, festivals, concerts, theaters, and of course, ballparks. In that sense, they were similar to Sportservice, another concessionaire that Trench made pennants for.

As with Sportservice, Shear didn't make his own pennants; rather, he just sold them. From the looks of things, he ran the concession operations at nearby ballparks, like Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds, throughout the 1930s. It's no coincidence that most of the pennants tagged with his name involve one of the three New York baseball teams; or, their World Series opponent. I suspect these pennants would have been sold directly at these events.

Back to your pennant. This '36/Yankees AL champions pennant is the earliest professional baseball pennant by Trench that I know of. Trench made similar ones like this into the 1940s and 50s for a variety of other baseball teams; however, most bear no maker's or concessionaire's marks at all (the Chas. Shear concessionaire's mark seems to disappear by the mid-1940s). Most of this series were 9" x 26" in length.

Additionally, this would have been a premium pennant in 1936. Just look at how many different colors the artwork features. Most other pennant makers were making one-color graphic designs. Yours has at least five!

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Domer05

A few months ago we debated the meaning of certain marks found on 1970s pennants: namely "VET" and "M." Nobody really had a clear answer. My opinion then, as now, is that these were likely concessionaire's marks rather than maker's marks.

The below Dodgers pennant was made in the late 1960s, early 1970s. It exists in three different variants. The first shows the ASCO maker's mark. My presumption is ASCO made all variants of this pennant. Three other variations exist: blank; "VET"; and "M."

I just bought the "M" variant. The owner shared with me, in passing, that he/she purchased it in the 1970s at Riverfront Stadium.

I recall baseball Rob owning a similar Giants pennant bearing the same "M" thereon. He's also from Ohio. Might this "M" have been an Ohio retailer?


Unfortunately for my theory, it appears that Riverfront Stadium's concessionaire was Sportservice when it opened in 1970. And, to my knowledge, Sportservice never utilized a concessionaire's mark resembling an "M".

So whatever this "M" means, it may have something to do with Ohio. And that "VET" one may, in fact, have something to do with Veteran's Stadium/Philadelphia after all.

When I read this post yesterday, it reminded me of a pennant I once owned with ‘Canteen Corp’ located on it. And as I went back to find a photo of it, I revisited a message football Rob sent me indicating your https://pennantfever.weebly.com blog referenced the company as a concessionaire.

I finally was able to spent some time today reading most of the pennant manufactures’ history. First, the content is amazing. The time, passion, and articulation is second to none. I learned so much about a hobby I really enjoy - it makes me appreciate it even more. And I think a few of my pennants are pictured. Specially, when I was reading about Trench, the lack of consistency using maker’s marks, mark variations, and how competitors often copied design, it was apparent to me why so many subtle differences exist. This was also emphasized in the ADFLAG ‘copycat’ section.

To my point, has anybody else noticed this slight variations on some football ‘number 12’ pennants? I used to own two NY Giants pennants, you’ll notice the forth and smallest players have different numbers (10 and 12). It also looks like in the Trench section of the blog, the ‘number 12’ pennant - Notre Dame example - the forth and smallest player may have number 35? Additionally, the ‘N’ on New York is seems slightly different on each. Finally, the left foot of the main player also appears to be slightly different on each pennant, too (you may have to zoom in on the first photo)

Any thoughts or theories about this? Do you think Trench made all these pennants (the two Giants pennants both have tassels) or would a copycat version slipped in? It’s interesting to me that the least visible player was the one altered. But maybe this was common practice? Sorry if this was discussed before.

[ooo-ribay]

^^^^ I have no theories on the makers but I notice #12’s uniform wrinkles are also slightly different.

[Fballguy]

The Steelers and Packers all have the same variation to this style of pennant. Those two along with the Giants seem to be the most common teams in this style. They're the only teams I can think of with multiple versions of this pennant. Others...Cowboys, Cardinals, Vikings have just one. At least that I've seen. There are quite a few teams I've never seen in this style. Bears, Lions, Rams, Redskins, Colts, 49ers, etc.

[Domer05]

Aw shucks, thanks Erik for the kind words. If the info from my site helps you appreciate pennants more than you already do, then that was precisely my intention.

Someone on this thread once commented that, "Quality control was not necessarily part of the manufacturing process," when these souvenirs were made 50+ years ago. And it's so true. Back then, the artwork was drawn by humans; the felt was cut by hand; and the screen printing process itself ensured a limited degree of variation from one job to the next. Some makers even sold the imperfect stuff for a discount.

Perhaps the biggest area for variation concerns secondary color applications. Most of these 1950s/60s pennants by Trench were screen printed with a white base layer; then air brushed with 3-4 more colors topping that base layer. If the air brusher swiped the gun too fast, or the gun was running low on a certain color, the coloring would come out different from the previous pennant.

I think that's probably why, on your NY Giants pennants, the shoes differ. Clearly the black paint either ran out on the applicator; or else they opted to skip this color in the interest of time, money, etc. I've definitely caught similar variations in other Trench pennants over the years that left me scratching my head.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

That's a beauty, Rob. I did some research on Charles Shear that I recently included as an update to my piece on Trench Mfg. Co.

Charles Shear came to the US as an immigrant boy. He started a business in New York City under his name that would grow into one of the nation's largest novelty operators. In particular, Shear's business focused on concessions; he sold novelty items at fairs, festivals, concerts, theaters, and of course, ballparks. In that sense, they were similar to Sportservice, another concessionaire that Trench made pennants for.

As with Sportservice, Shear didn't make his own pennants; rather, he just sold them. From the looks of things, he ran the concession operations at nearby ballparks, like Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds, throughout the 1930s. It's no coincidence that most of the pennants tagged with his name involve one of the three New York baseball teams; or, their World Series opponent. I suspect these pennants would have been sold directly at these events.

Back to your pennant. This '36/Yankees AL champions pennant is the earliest professional baseball pennant by Trench that I know of. Trench made similar ones like this into the 1940s and 50s for a variety of other baseball teams; however, most bear no maker's or concessionaire's marks at all (the Chas. Shear concessionaire's mark seems to disappear by the mid-1940s). Most of this series were 9" x 26" in length.

Additionally, this would have been a premium pennant in 1936. Just look at how many different colors the artwork features. Most other pennant makers were making one-color graphic designs. Yours has at least five!

Since we are talking about pennants with labels, here’s a Brooklyn pennant - not quite full-size but not 3/4 either ... 10-3/4” by 26-3/4” ... made by a company in Yonkers.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Since we are talking about pennants with labels, here’s a Brooklyn pennant - not quite full-size but not 3/4 either ... 10-3/4” by 26-3/4” ... made by a company in Yonkers.

I have never seen that Brooklyn Dodgers pennant. Ever.

I have seen Norsid labels before; but, never once on a Dodgers pennant. I mostly recall seeing their label on collegiate pennants from the 1940s, 50s and 60s.

Anyone else seen this label on MLB pennants before? I feel like I've seen that artwork before, too....

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

The Steelers and Packers all have the same variation to this style of pennant. Those two along with the Giants seem to be the most common teams in this style. They're the only teams I can think of with multiple versions of this pennant. Others...Cowboys, Cardinals, Vikings have just one. At least that I've seen. There are quite a few teams I've never seen in this style. Bears, Lions, Rams, Redskins, Colts, 49ers, etc.

Are you saying the Steelers and Packers have the same ‘4th player number variation’ as the Giants pennants I posted? Thanks, Rob!

[Fballguy]

Yep...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

^^^^ I have no theories on the makers but I notice #12’s uniform wrinkles are also slightly different.

Yes, and regarding that NY Giants pennant, there's a white shoes vs. black shoes issue as well. So many subtle variations on these vintage beauties!

[perezfan]

Domer was right about this being a premium pennant. I count no less than 8 colors in the graphic image (most I've ever seen)…

Green
White
Tan
Burgundy
Blue
Grey
Brown
Brick Red

Must've been a very intricate and ambitious screening process back in the day. A beautiful and high quality pennant!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I think that's probably why, on your NY Giants pennants, the shoes differ. Clearly the black paint either ran out on the applicator; or else they opted to skip this color in the interest of time, money, etc. I've definitely caught similar variations in other Trench pennants over the years that left me scratching my head.

Erik was referencing the other (player’s left) shoe.

[erikc21]

Well I’m color blind so all this color talk of shoes and color schemes is boring...

But I do appreciate everybody’s thoughts and responses. And I hadn’t thought about the lack of consistency that surly existed when these pennants were produced. How cool would it have been to be at one of those manufactures during their heyday!?

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I have never seen that Brooklyn Dodgers pennant. Ever.

I have seen Norsid labels before; but, never once on a Dodgers pennant. I mostly recall seeing their label on collegiate pennants from the 1940s, 50s and 60s.

Anyone else seen this label on MLB pennants before? I feel like I've seen that artwork before, too....

I have not, but there are many more seasoned eyes here than me.

[Domer05]

Found this rare example of the original, unopened packaging for a National League set of mini-pennants by Trench. These were issued in the 1970s.

On the reverse-side of the packaging, note the handy decorating tips Trench offers you the consumer....

Gotta love the pipe-smoking husband admiring his pennant wheel. I'm sure his wife is proud.

[MK]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Found this rare example of the original, unopened packaging for a National League set of mini-pennants by Trench. These were issued in the 1970s.

On the reverse-side of the packing, note the handy decorating tips Trench offers you the consumer....

Gotta love the pipe-smoking husband admiring his pennant wheel. I'm sure his wife is proud.

That’s a great find! So I assume these were sold in dime stores or such?

[bocca001]

A somewhat recent pickup showing how nice the sky and trees look in California (and maybe the 49ers team as well).

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

A somewhat recent pickup showing how nice the sky and trees look in California (and maybe the 49ers team as well).

Beautiful pennant Marc! It got me thinking ... I have some old football pennants but not many. I have seen only a couple football scroll pennants in my years collecting. I think they were both AAFC pennants, Browns and Bills. Anyone know or have any others?

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Beautiful pennant Marc! It got me thinking ... I have some old football pennants but not many. I have seen only a couple football scroll pennants in my years collecting. I think they were both AAFC pennants, Browns and Bills. Anyone know or have any others?

There are very few true “scroll” football pennants except for the ones you mentioned until you get to the late 70-80’s. There are a couple with names on them, but for the most part football pennants are very bla. Honestly I can only think of those ones you mentioned that are scroll style.

[bocca001]

My only football scroll pennant is college, not NFL. I know that Fballguy has the 1950 Kentucky Orange Bowl scroll pennant that goes along with this one.

[Duluth Eskimo]

As I sit bored out of my mind endlessly watching re runs of World Series and other notable games from all sports, I was watching Ken Burns Baseball on MLB. They were and are focusing on Jackie Robinson and they showed a young fan holding this Dodgers pennant. I always like when I see vintage pennants in photos or film coverage. Can’t help with the Dodgers, as I am strictly a Yankee collector when it comes to pennants so I have the matching version. I’d be interested in seeing other photos or film stills that show vintage pennants that others have.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by bocca001

My only football scroll pennant is college, not NFL. I know that Fballguy has the 1950 Kentucky Orange Bowl scroll pennant that goes along with this one.

I forgot about college. Now that you mention it, there are a number of Bowl games that I can remember. Nice pennant.

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by bocca001

My only football scroll pennant is college, not NFL. I know that Fballguy has the 1950 Kentucky Orange Bowl scroll pennant that goes along with this one.

Hey Marc,

I have the sister pennant to the your 1950 Orange Bowl (featuring Babe Parilli). A good looking pair, if you ask me.

[bobw]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I’d be interested in seeing other photos or film stills that show vintage pennants that others have.

This is what I had on my computer....






]

[Domer05]

[QUOTE=bobw;1968588]This is what I had on my computer....




Great pics, Bob! That first picture appears to have been taken in 1958'ish outside Memorial Coliseum in Los Angeles. Those trumpets you see the participants playing were a foot long and made of brass. Each sold for $1.00. Capable of playing six notes, they came with instructions for playing, "CHARGE!"

They were an instant hit with fans. Unfortunately, they also shattered on impact; and they sounded less like a bugle, and more like a kazoo. So they had to stop selling them.

What did you expect for a dollar?

Now those Trench pennants the vendor's also offering--can't go wrong there.

[bocca001]

I don't have many photos, but here are a few.

I'd love to see what baseball Rob has for the Giants

[Fballguy]

Here are a few I've found...