T206 w/ no red ink ends early on eBay. GRRR!

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Posted By: dan mckee

You are right Ray, my new good friend, he didn't sell me the card at $12.75 thanks to you. He didn't sell me the card at all. He was going to, actually, I thought that was a little high so I beat him down to $11 shipped.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

As he stated. Still cannot believe Leon's post regarding all the ass kicking (he must be talking to bcd too much lately). Anyway, Dan knows the reasons I was pissed at him for, and we settled those offline via e-mail like two gentlemen.

As for contractual intereference - go ahead and sue me all you wish. My only income is from disability (social security and veteran's). That cannot be touched with a lawsuit! I find that to be a BS suit anyway (not that one probably couldn't win). However, I see nothing wrong with making a higher offer for an item, even if it was promised as being sold.

Does all this mean I can sue all those people who have made deals with me and broken them???????? Come on! Hell, I even had a board member blatantly steal $883 from me and when I e-mailed him telling him I wanted the money, he was arrogant enough to ask if I was threatening him!

This Hobby is getting really bad for the cut-throats!!!!! Trust me - a board member recently screwed me out of an SGC 20 Croft's Cocoa Chance by threatening the seller b/c he bought a card from the seller on eBay that was listed as trimmed (then was mad b/c the card was trimmed)! The Hobby is getting so bad with all this BS that it is beginning to not even be fun any longer. THAT was my main reason for e-mailing the seller of the card Dan purchased early with an offer of $1k (plus, I owed Dan that for a couple things he did to me that I am no longer going to worry about or mention). AND, I DO BELIEVE THE CARD IS WORTH MORE THAN MY OFFER!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Sellers should never end ebay auctions early because they will almost always be offered less than their card will ultimately sell for and they will almost always piss off everyone bidding on it, so in the end everybody loses. If a bidder sees a card worth $1000 plus and the current bid is $11, I would recommend he place a high ceiling and hope somebody elses pushes it up; the higher the bid the seller sees he is getting, the less likely he is going to consider shutting down his auction. There are bargains on ebay but you can't buy a card for 2% of its value and others are going to find it. Every auction that closes early ends up with some kind of fallout, especially in such a competitive and cutthroat environment.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

What bugs me far more than sellers who end auctions early is sellers who shut down auctions because they're not comfortable with the bidding prices.

A few months ago there was a seller who had a lot of very nice cards he had purchased at Mastro. He listed them all on Ebay as one lot. It was one of those auctions that we've all seen, where we saw it and said "I am going to win that lot, no matter what it costs." I prepared to set an extremely high snipe.

With about two days left in the auction, the bidding was still very low - in the low hundreds for a lot that was probably worth $2,500. I started thinking maybe I was going to get a steal, but was prepared to go far higher than the cards were worth.

All of a sudden, the auction disappeared.

I emailed the seller about it, he flat-out told me that he ended the auction because the bidding was low, and he was scared he was going to lose money on the auction. So he pulled the auction and decided he was going to send the cards to PSA.

That made me NUTS. My opinion - if you list the card on Ebay, you're supposed to sell the card, one way or the other. You can't list something and then pull it because the bidding isn't working in your favor - I certainly never see sellers pulling their listings because the bidding is too high.

To make matters worse, I responded to him and asked what he was hoping to get for the cards. His response was "I have $2,500 in them, and I was hoping to get at least $2,800". So I told him point blank that I would give him $3,000 for them right then and there.

Two days went by without hearing from him, so I emailed him again. He responded by saying "The cards are already at PSA. Sorry." I never heard from the guy again.

To me, that's way worse than someone ending an auction early.

-Al

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I personally do not see a problem with ending an auction early if there are NO bids. To me if a bid is placed the auction should go thru.

As much as we may hate the offers off line, they are a fact of the ebay auctions and you might as well get use to it.


Lee

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Posted By: Nick

but they are part of the seller's contract with eBay. Ending an auction early to sell to someone (even the current highest bidder) at other than the highest bid price is a breach by the seller of his contract with eBay - and deprives eBay of its expectancy of final value fees. The buyer, in that case, is himself inducing a breach of contract and committing a potentially tortious action against eBay. Most, if not all, states have an equitable principle of law that no one shall benefit from his own wrong - in California it's even codified in the "Maxims of Jurisprudence" part of the Civil Code - meaning that there is a very strong chance a court would refuse to recognize any claim for damages by a buyer or seller in such a situation.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Al that the seller should have kept the auction going. I think the only options are to set a reserve when you list the item, which is entirely fair, or if you choose not to use the reserve then you agree to let the lot sell for whatever it goes for. Also, experienced sellers know it is silly to judge the high bid a day or two before the close; the bid can triple in the last ten seconds. Sellers need to think this all out at the time they list; we are given several options to protect ourselves and that's the time to exercise them; not five days into the process when things just aren't going the seller's way.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Please notice the J/K after the part about suing you. Stands for just kidding. I wasn't that mad. Just please contact me in the future when you have a problem with me instead of what you did. I am sure we can always work it out. If you will pay $1000 for that card then you deserve to have it. I sure wouldn't with some of the red there. Glad you and I worked things out.

Ray, I noticed you wrote above "I will catch a break one day!". Does that mean you will get a good deal one day? or does it mean since you didn't get this deal, you will do whatever you can to hose it up for the person that did?

Scott, I hope your Social Security checks are coming in a timely manner, if you ever have a problem with that, feel free to call me direct and I will try to help you out as I work there.

Leon, I appreciate your stand on the close-down only if there are no bids. But remember, not only was there already a bid on the orbits, the auction was also over. Then you made your offer so you were not practicing what you preach there. Maybe it was just a one-time oversight on your part, no sweat.

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Posted By: Ray

Dan,

I meant I hope that I win a card like this that sneaks under everyone else's radar. Honestly, I was never out to screw you like you have repeatedly said. Read my original post. I was angry at the seller for ending the auction early and not giving me a chance to bid again. I actually stated that you were a "well-respected" member of this board. Not once have I said I felt satisfaction in getting the seller to reneg his deal with you. With all this out in the open, when he relists, there is no way I'd be able to afford this card and I'd rather a board member have it than someone else.

I'm sorry that you think I was out to get you. If you reread my posts, you would see that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Best regards,
Ray

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Posted By: leon

Dan with all due respect, and as a friend, you are still wrong on the Orbits auction. There were bids on it, you made the offer, THEN he closed it down, prior to it's natural ending to accept your offer. Of course it was over ...HE STOPPED IT WITH YOUR OFFER ACCEPTED BEFORE IT WAS DUE TO END, or is there still something I am missing? I am practicing what I preach and if you would quit trying to get sellers to end all of their auctions early, AFTER there are bids on them, this wouldn't happen....And I can say if you continue I will continue offering them higher money on every one I can...alls fair in love and cards I guess......best regards

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Posted By: dan mckee

Am I officially upgraded from a collecting friend to a friend? Hell I will take it! Now because you think it is ok to offer when there are no bids and not after there are bids, that is what is right? I disagree with you on that. That is your opinion of what's right and wrong. So since I broke your rule then it was ok for you to break your own rule too? 2 wrongs make a right? You didn't need to state that you would do it again in the future, I expect it. Dan.

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Posted By: Jason

Seems to me like alot of jealous people are mad that Dan found a deal and since they couldn't have it then he couldn't either. Goes to show that you shouldn't turn your back on your "friends", Dan. You may end up with a dagger. I remember once when a fellow board member renegged on a deal concerning a low grade Cobb about 3-4 years ago. Pull the plank out of your own eye Leon before telling Dan to remove the speck in his. Why are we such hypocrits?

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Posted By: leon

I am not jealous...just playing the game...IF someone shuts an auction down before it ends then I am going to try to buy it too...why is that wrong? ..take care

ps....btw Jason...why not just let auctions run their course?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I've seen quite a few auctions end early. Do I like it when it's something I want - NO. To me it really doesn't matter whether there are bids on the card or not when an auction is ended early because the seller takes an offer on the card. Besides, what happens if you email the seller (to end the auction early) before there are any bids on the card and someone bids on the card by the time the seller gets to his email. What came first - the bid or the email to end the auction early? Semantics....

It's irritating when an auction is ended early but everyone has the opportunity to email the seller to do the same thing. I would have to figure that a smart seller might at least wait until there is a day left before accepting an offer to end the auction early because if ONE person is going to make some type of insane offer (which could very well be in line with the actual market value) then there might be others that want the card at the same price. Let'em slug it out in the auction arena, that's what it's there for. Besides, I will avoid a seller that continually ends auctions early.

If I see something that I really like I email the seller and ask them up front if they would end the auction early if someone gave them a great offer. If they say yes then I just watch the item, if they say absolutely not then I'll probably bid on it and watch it at the end of the auction (time permitting).

One last comment - if you email the seller to end the auction early and someone screws you by telling the seller that they could have gotten more for the card then that's just too bad, it's part of the game. I suppose if you're smart enough you'll tell the seller to end the auction and BIN it at your offering price so you that you have ebay backing you up if the seller attempts to reneg on the BIN offer. Besides, would you really want to deal with a seller that agrees to sell it off of ebay and then renegs because of an email from someone stating they could have gotten more?

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

So Jason, someone who makes an offer that closes down an auction that many of his "friends" may be watching is not giving a dagger in the back to any number of interested bidders who want to play by the rules?

As far as I am concerned any offer made to end an auction early is total BS - put your offer in the little box on the line where it says "Your maximum bid" and let the best offer win.

I have never offered to end an auction early and never will, but I'm with Leon in one respect - I will never fire the first shot, but if someone closes down something I'm watching I have no qualms about returning fire.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Leon, I think that is perfectly fine. If I've been waiting patiently to put in a final bid on an item I want, and someone gets the seller to end early, I don't see a problem with contacting the person and asking them what they sold it for (but they will almost always lie). However, I will not deal with the person at that point. I've made offline deals with sellers and then had the item yanked out from under me because of an unseen offline bidding war with other board members who got into the fray late, and I'm not into that. If you make a deal, it's a deal - that's the way men do business. If you back out of a deal, you're a pussy and I'm through talking with you...period.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Greg, I understand what you are saying, but ebay has so many shady sellers with cool items, that you have to be prepared to play the game if you really want something.

Sometimes I ask a seller to add a BIN of their choice - I typically do this when a seller appears to be clueless or doesn't normally sell that type of item - I don't do it to rip them off, but rather to make sure they understand that I'm dead serious about the item and that they SHOULD NOT end the auction early for someone else. These sellers will almost always ask "what are you willing to pay" or they will say "no". If they ask my price, I give it to them, but I insist on the "BIN" just so I don't have to deal with board members jumping in to break up the deal. I DO NOT ask sellers to end auctions early when they already have bids.

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Posted By: dan mckee

All of you have very good points. I do it for 2 reasons: It happens to me all of the time and I lose stuff I want, #2, it gives the guys like Ray and myself who can't afford to go against the wealthy people in the hobby. Thanks Judge, I agree totally, an auction should be treated the same whether there are bids or not. And yes, who is to say when my offer was sent? This one was sent before any bid was placed but it wouldn't have stopped me anyway. Remember, there could be 10 watchers and 20 snipes set up to hit an auction with no bids, that should be treated the same as if there is a bid on it. Sorry leon, this is one thing I disagree with you on. Another thing I disagree with you on is that you would do it to me again, I can tell you, I would not do it to you after I saw that you won an item. I guess I shouldn't have challenged the Lion in his jungle.

Jason, trust me, I learned the hard way awhile ago not to turn my back.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Dan, I think you are wrong on one point - waiting snipes should not be treated the same as a bid that has already been placed. People who snipe are taking a chance. People who bid are letting the seller know they are serious. You should not interfere with an auction that has bids.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I respect your point Scott. Dan.

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Posted By: quan

i also learned it the hard way. i binned one of dan's (e105 fielding wagner)item at his listed price, he sent me an empty envelope after receiving a higher offer from botn after the auction ended...and tried to claim insurance. i feel for dan and all his usps problems.

i have made offers to sellers to end auctions, but only if there were no bids..."if there is still no bids by the time u read this..."

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Regarding his statement about people who back out of deals! He is correct - a deal is a deal. I have had several deals broken with me in the past several months. The only times (2 times) I have ever broken deals were when the seller and I had an original deal, then the seller came back stating they needed more money for a card or cards. At first I agreed. Then, after thinking about how they broke a deal, I felt like Scott F. - a deal is a deal, and if they cannot stick to the original deal, then I don't want to deal!

Breaking a deal is definitely worse than trying to buy something cheap and have a seller end an auction early!

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Posted By: Brian E.

Quan, if true, that's just plain wrong. Not to mention a possible federal offense.

Brian E.

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Posted By: leon

Did I read that correctly? Dan sent you an empty envelope? Did it look like could have been opened and re-shut?

ps....be careul here too.....that would be a Federal Offense since it's the US mail.....I think....

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

After all is said and done, remember that this is "flea-bay" we are talking about. While there are rules that we are under ethical obligations to respect, you must remember that many buyers and sellers really feel like ebay is just a means to "make contact" and ultimately anything goes. You have to make your own decisions as to what is right or wrong, and what you can tolerate. It has increased my own enjoyment of the hobby, so I'm fine with it overall.

My personal preference would be that sniping did not exist and buyers and sellers were required to put up credit card numbers as collateral - if an a buyer ended a certain percentage of their auctions early...they are banned. If a seller can prove tampering...banned. If a seller or buyer backs out of an auction that goes to completion, their credit card on file is debited. Trust me - ebay DOES NOT want that kind of integrity in their auctions as all the hicks and thieves would disappear...with their money.

As long as you do not spill beer in your keyboard, you should be okay.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Well here it is boys and girls, the hobby at it's worst. Greed and jealousy has reared its ugly head. I hate to see when people jump on the morally right pedestal just make them seem like an angel. This hobby is just one big sin, with all the coveting, desire, and greed rolled up in a big wad of $100's. I don't even post hear anymore because of all the bickering, complaining about grading companies, and what's fake on ebay, but I read everyday. I can hear the reply now good reddens. I have just recently found the chat room. It's a lot more civil and fun. I recommend you come and check it out.

I just wanted to defend the seller here as he is a nice guy and isn't trying to screw anyone. I know that's not what is being questioned here but what is, ending an item early, I don't believe one person here when they say would never or have never tried to end an auction early with other bids on it. Now I personally believe that you have to be high bidder at the time you get the auction closed, but hay that's what I think. Do I make the rules, YES, but just for my hobby fun. WOW that was weird, it's been a long time seance I have wrote hobby and fun in the same sentence. Like I said, it's like a swap-meet, they (the seller) have the right to do what ever they want with THERE items. I have no problem with other people emailing the seller with a higher offers, the problem I have is when they email them with a fake offer and when they get what they want and the seller re-lists THEY DON'T EVEN PLACE ONE BID!!!!!

Oh well this is where cards have gone right now so play the game or change sports right.

By the way I would also like to say that Dan has been nothing but kind to me in all my dealings with him. He and his Father brought back a lot of great memories of me and my family collecting together.

The funny thing is so much is lost when you don't have the personal interaction anymore, and when you do finally meet at the National you A. Have so much resentment built up you never really get to find out that they are great people or B. You sit down and talk about collecting 33 Goudeys with a guy who got them straight from the pack back in 33.

Man look at this thing sorry for the BLAH BLAH BLAH I'm done posting again. I'm sure I won't be missed. I'll be in the chat room if you need me HEHE

CHATers RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: tbob

First off, I have never shut down an auction of mine that had bids and rarely sold a card on ebay and shut it down when there were no bids. Secondly, I have contacted sellers to ask if they would end an auction early when it was something I desperately needed, if there were no bids or only my bid.
All that said, I think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here and it makes me sick. I had someone once pull the same stunt on me 3 years ago when I won a rare card by making the seller a reasonable offer on a card I needed badly and didn't want to lose on a snipe. The seller was contacted and told he would be kicked off ebay (a blatant lie) if he completed the deal. He got scared, cancelled our contract (and yes I am an attorney too and believe that there was tortious conduct on the part of this interferer) and the card was re-listed. I was sniped and the card sold for not much more than I offered. I was able a year later to win the exact same card in Barry Sloate's auction (Barry had nothing to do with any of this by the way) and paid about $20 more than I would have paid originally, no big deal as the card is rare. The bottom line is the lying scum who intimidated the seller with intentionally false and baseless threats about having him kicked off ebay forever. The fact he is a member of the 54Forum really disappointed me. I have since forgiven but not forgotten this.
The bottom line is that although I consider almost everyone here a friend, I don't like the hypocrisy going on. I will tell you right now that if I spot a card I need to complete a set which I have worked on 5 years, I am going to make a generous offer to buy the card and have him end the auction. I am not going to be a hypocrite and say I won't do it. I hope the card has no bids but regardless I will make the effort. Maybe you can draw a distinction between that situation and Dan's jumping on a real deal when he saw it but if not, just label me as one of the bad guys too. I always try to avoid bidding on cards where friends are bidding also, if I can, and try to treat everyone fairly with deals and trades. But I will not take the easy road and say I would never do this.

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Posted By: leon

That's fine that you do that. Just know that if I wanted that card too then I am going to email him a very generous offer and try to interrupt the deal. The fact you might get them to end it does not stop me from wanting the card too....I guess I can just be the bad guy here...Won't be the first time.... No hidden agenda here....and this is not personal...it's just the game....best regards

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Hey Tbob, "hypocrisy" means that someone preaches one thing and does another. Give us an example please.

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Posted By: tbob

Leon- I think there is a distinction between your wanting the card too and someone just wanting to prevent someone from getting a "good deal." I understand the first, not the second. I think getting the seller to add a BIN is a great idea, I appreciate someone mentioning it. And yes, I do consider you a friend, nothing personal taken...
Bob

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Is it really that hard to believe that someone who says they have never offered and will never offer to end an auction early actually means it?

I have never "needed" a card so badly that I feel I have to step on others to get it, and if I ever start getting that attitude I should just sell my collection because the fun will have ceased.

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Posted By: tbob

Scott- A specific example of someone being hypocritical might be chastizing Dan for having a seller end an auction early and selling a card to him when they have done it themselves in the past. But what I am trying to get across is exactly what Adam alluded to, that some posters are claiming the moral high ground and yet don't deal with others in that same manner.
Bob

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Posted By: tbob

Greg- I understand your point and respect it. In the last 6 or 7 years I have made an offer a couple of times to have an auction ended early, once on a set completing card and one other time on a card I had not seen offered in a long time. Neither card was a card that was on anyone else's "hot list" and both were relatively obscure and not in that great of demand. I didn't feel I was climbing over anyone to get the cards, I saw the card go on ebay for sale, contacted the seller and asked him what he would take for it and we contracted a sale. Did I feel badly because there MIGHT have been someone else out there who MIGHT have bid on it? No. Would I do it on any card other than a set completing situation? Probably not.
After reading all these posts I think if that situation ever presented itself again I would ask the seller to add a BIN to the listing though....
Bob

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

A problem that I frequently see on this board is that people with lower ethics find it impossible to believe that people with higher ethics actually practice them. Kind of like a thief who can't believe his honest buddy won't help him with a crime.

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Posted By: tbob

I met Dan for the first time at the National this summer and came away having thoroughly enjoyed the experience. On the flip side, I have dealt with Scott on several occasions and also consider him to be great to deal with and a friend.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Bob - that last post wasn't meant for you, but for the board in general. I don't know your ethical standards, but I've never had any reason to doubt they were high.

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Posted By: tbob

Thanks. i think we all need to step back and take a breath.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I had to look back in on this string and see what merited 80+ posts.

"This hobby is just one big sin, with all the coveting, desire, and greed rolled up in a big wad of $100's."

That's some pretty profound and disturbing **it for a Tuesday morning, but I kind of agree in one respect, kind of disagree in another:

I agree that as the prices of cards escalate and people move into collecting for whom money literally is a non-issue, the Hobby has gotten kind of gross and is inspiring some unseemly behavior. Many good old-time collectors who are not Masters of the Universe feel pressured to move fast and perhaps move in ways that they would not have considered before because of the perception that they cannot win a head to head auction with the big bucks crowd.

I disagree that this trend is new in the Hobby, though. I recall rivalries, competitiveness, deal interference, coveting, desire and greed in spades in 1975. Of course, I was 10 years old then What we are seeing here is no different than what we all experienced in grade school with cards, comic books, rocks, or whatever other collectibles we were chasing at the time. But now everyone participating is a well-off, middle-aged guy. Maybe we all need really is a bit of adult supervision...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Scott,

I'd like to add to your post:

A problem that I frequently see on this board is that people with lower ethics find it impossible to believe that people with higher ethics actually practice them. Kind of like a thief who can't believe his honest buddy won't help him with a crime.

How about "Kind of like a thief who can't believe that his honest thief buddy wont help him with a crime.

Of course, this isn't being directed at anyone - it's just a joke... and no, I don't pretend to stand upon morally high ground...

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Fred, you just tied my brain in a knot!

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"he sent me an empty envelope after receiving a higher offer from botn after the auction ended...and tried to claim insurance."

Just have to chime in quickly about how much this type of post irritates me...completely irrelevant to the subject and designed only to cast someone in a negative light.

Again, I'm still newish here, and don't mean to start trouble or jump into someone else's fight, but I hate to see a constructive debate turn into a public flogging.

-Al

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Posted By: leon

Ya know...this is supposed to be chatboard to come and learn about Pre-WWII baseball cards. I am not sure this thread is in keeping with that particular focus. IS some of this stuff ok? Probably. Is a lot of it ok? Probably not. I am rethinking some of my actions too. I do consider Dan a friend (hey Dan). Do friends do what I did to friends? No. Do emotions get in the way sometimes with what is right? Probably. Are most of us very passionate about collecting? Probably. I am not sure what all of this means except that it's time to get back to cards and quit the witch hunts. If anyone on the board has never done anything wrong then they can email me and we can chat about. I doubt I get too many emails. I still will be pissed when I see auctions shut down but don't think I will try to interrupt them (for sure not when friends win them). I guess I just need to start asking everyone that sells cards I want to shut the auction down for me No....on second thought maybe I won't. I just don't think it's right....and also don't think I want to treat friends the way I treated Dan. For that I apologize...but damn it.....well, never mind....Hey Dan...say HI to Dad for me.....this thread is done...regards all