Gypsy Queen in Sloate auction

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Posted By: leon

Hey Folks,
As a "type" collector I am very interested in the Gypsy Queen in the Sloate auction. Is it real or not? Could it be a proof? Looks like a tough call. I know there are a few photography/cardboard experts on the boards nowadays. Any thoughts? (this is in NO WAY saying I believe the card is not real....I have no idea)
best regards

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Posted By: petecld

There is nothing about the image I have to suggest it is a proof of any kind. Do you have a better image of the card?

All I have is the 2 page b/w flyer. From that it is hard to tell if anything about it is suspecious.

Good Luck

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Posted By: leon

Hey Pete,
That is all I have too ( B & W photo ).....
best regards

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Posted By: Jay Miller

test

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Sorry about the test message. I was having trouble with the site before. You bring up an interesting concern about this card. Whether it is real or not I don't know. However, I do know a little of its history and since I heard about this card about four years ago there have been many question raised about it. First, the history. It was purchased about four years ago on ebay by the current consignor for about $500. Since I first heard about the card certain questions have troubled me:

1-If this card were part of some set, why in 110+ years has no other card, baseball or any other subject, appeared which has a format identical to this card. There are boxer cards which have a similar Gypsy Queen banner at the bottom of the card, but the Goodwin & Co. writing is different.

2- If the card is a proof, why would Goodwin & Co. think of making a seperate set of California League players. This (the West Coast) would have almost certainly been a limited market for Gypsy Queen cigarettes at that time.

3- All Gypsy Queens known share photos with Old Judge cards. This photo does not appear on an Old Judge card. The McDonald card in the Old Judge set (which Lew Lipset has advertised that he will auction off in the future)has an entirely different photo.

4-Goodwin & Co. was very careful to keep tabs on what teams players were on. This explains the wonderful job they did in updating the team designations on Old Judge cards. It is odd that they would mislabel McDonald's team as Greenwood and Morgans. A typo---perhaps--but unlikely on a proof.`

I would like to hear from knowledgeable dealers like MW and old time collectors to know if they have ever seen anything like this. I also wonder if any grading services reading this board would be willing to slab the card.

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Posted By: MW

There are other Gypsy Queen cigarette cards with a similar format that include actresses, celebrities, prizefighters, and possibly, a few PCL baseball players (those familiar to West coast fans). Jefferson Burdick divided these specimens between two separate issues – N171s and N174s. The McDonald could be an “outlier” from this group. It is quite possible that Burdick had not encountered any baseball players from these series. If he had, they would have been designated as part of the N172 series – similar to the PCL cards that are known. Pictured below are two representative cards from the N171 and N174 series.

It is not uncommon for some 19th century tobacco issues to feature two or more formats and still have the same ACC designation. Examples include: Lone Jack (Ruby Cigarettes), Gilt Edge Cigarettes, William S. Kimball & Company, Virginia Brights Cigarettes, and (obviously) Old Judge. Since all of these brands as well as N171s and N174s employ different lettering styles and positioning of text, it is not surprising that the format of the 1888 James McDonald differs from that of other known Gypsy Queens. Also, these variations might explain the possible inclusion of this card as part of the N172 series.

Just as Gypsy Queens are a scarcer variety of Old Judges, this California League Gypsy Queen could be a tougher variety of the Old Judge PCL sub series.

What is curious about this card, however, is that the font above “Gypsy Queen” does not match any other font from either the N171 or N174 Series. Also, Jay’s observation about the “Goodwin and Co.” font is correct – it is more condensed than that of other Gypsy Queen cards but otherwise similar. The light background is also slightly unusual for this pose – especially considering the facial contrast. Finally, the mixing of typeset serif and sans serif fonts is unique among Gypsy Queens. It is also rarely (never?) found on other N172s. Perhaps all these peculiarities contribute to the singularity of this card.

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

Is anyone here interested in this lot?


Damn, I'm also trying to get Leon's E223 Keefe...

Please let me know


Jaime

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Posted By: MW

Any links for the words "actresses" or "celebrities" appearing in my post above were added administratively and were not included by me in the original.