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  #1  
Old 06-13-2016, 04:29 PM
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Butch7999 Butch7999 is offline
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Default Slightly OT -- anybody here play dice baseball as a kid?

Did anyone on board here play dice baseball when you were a kid? Not any commercially-made game
that uses dice, like APBA or Strat-O-Matic -- just the homemade variety. A pair of dice, a set of play results
(usually just memorized) for the eleven or 21 combinations, a scoresheet and a pencil, that's all.
Anyone at all? (Probably among only the over-50 contingent.)

We're working up an article about it and would seriously appreciate any feedback -- where and how
you learned (or invented) it, the combinations or play method you used, any memories at all you have of it.
Huge thanks for any input -- full credit in the article for anything you can contribute (unless, of course,
you prefer to stay anonymous). Reply in this thread, or via PM, or via e-mail [ Butch7999(at)aol.com ].
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:56 PM
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My Dad taught me to do math by playing dice baseball. We would select eight rosters and play about 50 games. We saved all of the stats and then would use them to identify two all star teams and play a best of seven series. If I remember correctly we used two dice and the following combinations dictated the action. 1-1 and any combo of 7 was a single, 2-2 double, 3-3 triple, 4-4 homer, 5-5 walk, 1-2 strikeout, 6-6 double play or a sacrifice fly depending where the runners were, any other combinations were outs. The lead runner was always out if a force out existed, no stealing and runners could only advance the number of bases the hitter collected. It was a fun and simple way to learn math. Oh yeah I'm over 50 and Merv Rettmund was an absolute beast.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:34 PM
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Hi Mike -- thanks very much for your input! Follow-up PM sent.

C'mon, guys -- anybody else? Surely there must be more folks here who played some version...
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:08 PM
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We had a simple game that used one die. We made a chart on a piece of paper with batting average / at-bats combinations. The idea was that a guy with a ton of at-bats who hit .300 was better than a guy with only 200 AB. For each combo we had the result line. So, for example, AB=500-550 and BA = .250 to .299 might be:

1= single, 2= ground out, 3= strikeout, 4 = double, 5 = fly out, 6 = pop out

Obviously there was very little precision, so the next increment (either more AB or higher BA) might just turn a double into a homer, or an out into a walk.

For stealing bases, another chart was simple, with outcomes based on a player's SB total, like 0-5, 6-10, etc.. If a player had more than 50 SB, die rolls 2-6 were safe, only one was out.

When we used 1971 cards, with 1970 stats, Lou Brock was the beast. He had over 650 AB, hit over .300, and had over 50 SB. So when he got on base, the general strategy was to clear the bases in front of him (even if it meant stealing Harmon Killebrew into a certain out) and then stealing Brock all the way around.

What was nice is that all we needed was one die, a piece of paper we could easily fold into our pockets, and we could make a new one whenever necessary, and our baseball cards. Once at the lake we didn't have a die so instead we used a deck of playing cards, just the A through 6s, and the guy batting would choose a card after the other shuffled.

Last edited by Mark17; 06-15-2016 at 11:16 PM.
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2016, 11:25 PM
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Butch,
Mine was not a dice baseball game, but an ordinary deck of cards. I figured all spades were hits and 13 out of 52 was a 250 batting average. Ace was a home run, King was a home run if the player was a 20 HR hitter the year before, otherwise the King was a triple. Queens and Jacks were doubles. The Queen, everyone scored, but the Jack, the runners only advanced 2 bases. Tens and nines were singles with runners advancing two bases, the rest were straight singles.
I had two or three walk cards and four strikeout cards , but I do not recall which I used. DP cards and the Aces of Diamonds, Clubs and Hearts were Sac flies. To raise the batting averages somewhat, I removed several of the playing cards. About every card had a meaning, Ground out, pop up, fly out,
With each play, I would shuffle the cards, so there could be a chance for the same card coming up twice in a row.
I do not remember what all the cards meant, as that was a long time ago.
I know there were other meanings.
For teams, (and here is where the rubber bands came in), I would start when I had enough players to have about 4 to six teams. I would sort the players by position and deal them out evenly to each team, but often there were players left over. When I was done with all the positions, I would deal the left over players out to the teams evenly. Once I had my teams, the rubber bands kept them seperate.
When I was about nine or ten, I remember I had over 300 AB for the starters. I kept all the stats, ERA and BA, RBIs, pitching stats as well. and kept up on who were the leaders of those stats.
The leaders were not your everyday players, I believe it was Dick Schoefield who was the HR leader. And yes, I would bench players who were not hitting.
I remember getting a cards game similar to that game. It only had about 10 or 12 cards, "base Hit", double, triple, HR, fly out, ground out, sac. Hit, Double play, Strikeout, and walk. That is the ones I remember, and that would have been in the latter 1950s.
I played that game for several years. Used up many decks of cards.
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Old 06-16-2016, 12:19 AM
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Default ah yes

Hey Butch,

I devised a three-dice game when I was ten and then revamped it to four dice when I was 12 or 13. I wish I knew where the “codes” were these days–I had them memorized down to each play but had them written down so the 2-3 neighbor kids who challenged me could either test my honesty or look for themselves. Outs were simply listed as groundout, fly or foul out, and line out. In the three-dice game walks and Ks had to be earned one roll of a ball or strike at a time, with no HBP that I recall. In the four-dice game I used three red dice and one white die, and I had a few changes if the white die came up a specific number; for example, 1-2-3-4 was an infield single but if the white die was the “1" it was a strikeout. All I remember about the 3 dice game was that 1-1-1 and 6-6-6 were home runs and the other threes of a kind were extra-base hits. It was all random with no weight for greatness. Mays could bat .125 and Gus Gil .300.

My game was tied to baseball cards–you had to field a team at each position using the Topps cards, and no multi-player cards were allowed. Guys like Bobby Heise were especially valuable, because his card just said “infield” so you could plug him in throughout the various positions– a few guys even had the designation “inf-of”, which of course was a manager’s dream. I also remember the 1973 Yankees having four third basemen –Allen, Sanchez, Nettles and Lanier, which greatly hampered their bench. Lanier and Allen were not true third sackers but had played there the year before because Nettles had not yet been acquired. Thanks Topps. What also was really cool was that one of the neighbors had only 1968 cards, so it was possible through trades that we would have the same guy playing for each side.

I remember that Joe Foy led my league in HRs by a landslide in the three-dice game. Foy was on the ‘69 Royals, who also had Luis Alcaraz leading off for me because I liked his card. I kept a written account of all games, but again there was no recording of defensive outs, just “O” for out. I remember a star was used for RBI, a check mark for run scored and x for SB–symbols I still use today if scoring a game. Same for the four dice game, which used all my 1972 Topps, and where the Brewers beat the Cardinals in the World Series, led by spark plug Brock Davis (I remember I hated playing “capless” players but didn’t have OF depth at the beginning and Davis just kept hitting all season) Great memories.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:06 AM
bgar3 bgar3 is offline
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Default Father invented

Yes, my father had a meaning for all the combinations, we played constantly with lineups etc, kept stats and everything. I still associate dice rolls with the baseball game meaning. Interestingly, they were different than the others mentioned. (We even had a football version). Believe it or not Vern Law once pitched a perfect game. I still marvel at how real the games and stats seemed.
FYI there is a great novel involving an extremely complex dice league by Coover, entitled The Universal Baseball Association, recommended if you have not read it yet. If interested in the rules I could give you most of them from memory, but I may need a few days to find my actual , original sheet. I think what made so great was you could play alone, against a friend, or as a tournament. Nice memories, thanks for the question. By the way this was mostly late 50's early 60's although must confess there were a few games in college also.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:59 AM
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Mark, Bill, Todd, bgar -- big thanks for the input! Seriously, much appreciated.
Some PMs will follow later (pressed for time at the moment).

bgar, yes, that's what we're looking for, the many variations, both drastic and subtle,
in the different "homebrew" or "folk" versions of dice baseball, and the when and where
of their origins.
Also, we're intimately acquainted with Coover's brilliant novel -- one of us (there's three
at this username, for those who don't know us) just did another lecture on the book
at an area college, and we've chatted with Coover in person (really nice guy as well as
a superb writer). The book is about so, so, so much more than dice baseball, of course --
multiple grand themes -- and indeed it should be requisite reading.
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Old 06-16-2016, 12:35 PM
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Got the idea from my neighbor back in high school, pair of dice with the rolls meaning the same result for everyone (i.e. double 4's = HR).

When he mentioned that his current HR leader was Mark Belanger I thought, well, that ain't right!!

So I eventually took the idea a bit further creating eight A.L. team rosters with each player having their own results for each possible roll of the dice.

Drawing vertical lines on steno pad sheets (just happened to be about the perfect size), I created a table for each teams roster with the table headers being Player, 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, etc, thru 5-6 (double sixes was reserved for misc.).

It took some time but filling out the table allowed you to increase the odds of say, Jim Rice leading the league in HR's as opposed to Mark Belanger. In this case (yes, I still remember) a roll of 1-5 was a HR for Rice. For Belanger to hit a HR, a roll of double sixes and then a second roll of one die with a 5 or 6 (3 or 4 could be a triple and 1 or 2 reached on error ... whatever you wanted to make it).

The table also allows you to add an extra single in the possible rolls for the better hitters, maybe replace one with an out for the "glove only" type players. Add an extra K in there for those who fan a bit more than average, etc. etc.

Tweaking over time led to a 3rd, different colored die for pitchers, that overrode the other pair if applicable. This helped seperate the better pitchers from the others.

Next to the pitchers name would be one, two, or no asterisk. No * (average pitchers) meant the single die was to be ignored. One * (above average pitchers) meant if the single die came up a 1, the batter was automatically out, ignore the other pair of dice. Two * (Cy Young caliber pitchers) meant if the single die came up a 1 or 2 ... same as above.
If that single die came up a 1 for say, Nolan Ryan, then the out was a K.
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Old 06-16-2016, 12:50 PM
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Default Yes

I do now with my son, 9 years old. Snake eyes is a HR. Nice game before bedtime. He has most the luck and usually wins.
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Old 06-16-2016, 01:05 PM
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M@rk S@tterstr0m
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What was really fun, when I got older, was making baseball cards of myself and all my teammates. Using the APBA method that uses 2 dice and gives 36 equally likely outcomes, I went through our game score books, compiled detailed stat sheets, and then correlated every plate appearance to an outcome. When a player had fewer than 36 PA, I'd put a dash next to that dice roll, meaning the dice needed to be re-rolled. So in my game, if a kid had 4 singles, a double, and 6 strikeouts in 25 plate appearances, I c ould replicate those odds exactly.

When players had more than 36 plate appearances, I divided the stats by 2, and when there was an odd number, I put 2 outcomes with a "/" which meant another roll was required - a single die and 1,2,3 meant the first result, 4,5,6 the second.

So it looked like:

21: fly out
22: strikeout
23: single
24: double/ground out
25: walk
26: strikeout
31: ---

And so on. It was neat because it was a precise statistical representation of the batting stats. However, pitcher strength wasn't factored in, or defense, and I don't think stolen bases had a very sophisticated mechanism.

I contacted a couple coaches of other teams to see if they had well-maintained scorebooks, but none did. That would've been cool, to have cards of all the kids in the whole league.

This concept stayed in the back of my mind and later, in graduate school (software engineering) I played with the idea of developing such a program to basically determine optimal batting lineups. In other words, run 1,000 simulated nine-inning "games", rotate the lineup to the next configuration, run a thousand games with that lineup, and so on. Kick the program off before going to bed and in the morning see which lineup produced the highest number of runs.

I pitched (that's a pun) the idea to the baseball coach at the school, and right away he said: "Some of my guys get hot, some can't hit left-handed pitching, some can't hit the good fastball, some can't touch a curve... so I have to weigh factors like that into setting my lineup on any given day."

And... I realized he was right. A manager has to set his lineup based on the people on his team, not just their stat lines.

Also, with college teams in Minnesota, the dataset is just too small to be reliable. At the major league level, when guys get 500 at bats, it's a different story.

Anyway, statistics-based simulated baseball is a fascinating topic, and really the only way that Rod Carew can take some cuts against Grover Alexander...
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:20 PM
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All the time as a kid (I'm 24 now).

Mine was exceedingly simple. One dice.
1-single
2-double
3-triple
4-K
5-'out'
6-HR

I used baseball cards to make my teams and would lay them out in their positions each inning. Had simple little scorecards I kept. Games were high scoring, obviously given the possible outcomes.

By the end, I had 10 teams playing 14 game seasons against each other.

I still remember how dominant this Aaron Myette card was in my 'league'.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:36 PM
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Hey Butch,

My brothers and I played dice baseball during 1963-64, sometimes against each other, sometimes individually. We used 3 dice. The game was simple, and lots of fun.

I was 11 in 1963 when the only big league games I ever saw–in black and white–were courtesy of the Saturday TV Game of the Week. So, there was plenty of time during the week to be creative with the love of baseball.

We penciled lineups onto index (score) cards and kept score and stats. A doubleheader could be played in about 30 minutes. The dice game was entertaining even when playing alone. My favorite team back in the day was the Chicago White Sox and I pitted them against the mighty Yankees, Tigers or Twins. Best I can remember, rolling 18 was a homer and rolling three was a triple. I think rolling 17 or 4 equaled a double; 16 or 5 a single; base on balls and K's–can't remember those; all other numbers were outs.

For some of my favorite players (like Pete Ward), I'd give him a 'mulligan' roll, or two, hoping to roll an 18. Somehow, the Sox always won those dice games. For me, the dice game was simple but lots of fun. Once or twice, I pretended to be a broadcaster and recorded the 'game' on a portable tape recorder.
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Last edited by Bobmc; 06-16-2016 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 06-16-2016, 07:41 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
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My good friends and i would play after school and on weekends in the 1983-1985 timeframe. Six inning games. One dice. 1-2 a hit, 3-6 an out. 6 being a strikeout. If a hit, one more roll of the dice. 1-2 a single, 3-4 a double, 5 a triple, and 6 a home run. We played 100's of games and there was one perfect game by Matt Young. We had some great times. If there is anything else you want to know let me know.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:12 AM
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Thanks to everyone who's replied so far in this thread! Much appreciated.
Guys who posted more detailed recollections, look for a PM.
More memories and variations of the game are welcome!
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Old 07-02-2016, 03:17 PM
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Some sort of rambling, incoherent article about this is now on-line at our main website (link in sig).

Thanks very much once again to everyone here who contributed memories of, and insights about, their versions of the game!
Let us know if we've in any way misrepresented your comments, and we'll fix it.
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Old 07-03-2016, 06:30 AM
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Default Thank you

Fun read, thanks. Amazing that Mike learned a game so similar in outcome to the one I did, but with different dice meanings.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:07 AM
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Great article it was a very interesting and entertaining read.
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Old 07-04-2016, 10:01 PM
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I played this game religiously:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Champio...cAAOSwGYVW87A1
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:30 AM
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I played the most simple game with dice. No singles, doubles, triples or home runs, not even players. Simply runs scored by the number on the die. I selected two teams and made a nine inning chart. Just rolled one die and that was the runs scored that half inning. Rolled again for the score of the bottom half of the inning. Added the runs for the the nine innings for the total. That was it. So the maximum score would be 54 (6 on the die x 9 innings) and a minimum of 9. Most scores were in the twenties. Not very involved but it kept me busy when I was not doing anything with my stamp collection.
Robert
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